Morality Without The Bible and Homosexuality

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I have no comment about this side, Homosex. is not what Natural Law prescribed - that was my comment on OP.

Again: What is this "natural law" you keep mentioning? Where is it written? Who wrote it? What made THEM the Ultimate Authority?

 

[columbus]

As for your StrawMan claim that homosexuals do not reproduce? What dank, dark cave have YOU been living in? Gays have been reproducing since there have BEEN gays--

Very true.
My partner has 4.
Tom

 

[Jainarayan]

Re: Most who are against Homosexuality.

It's a deeply seated fear that, somehow, homosexuality is catching.

Anyone I've met who is vehemently against it, seems to be afraid that they, personally, might discover they really like it.

Much truth in this. Y'know, those tests where men had electrodes attached to their man-parts, shown homoerotic images, and their "responses" measured. They rose to the occasion and showed how "stand up" they were.

 

[leov]

Everything that happens in nature, is according to natural law. By definition. Only miracles can overrule natural laws, allegedly.

Do you think homosexuality is a miracle?

Ciao

- viole

Yep, negative unnecessary miracle,

 

[leov]

We are animals. Vertebrate, mammals, primates, apes, to be precise.

Ciao

- viole

That is miracle, like talking donkey, I am talking to animals, wait, I'm going to talk to my dog Moose, he'll be surprised!

 

[David1967]

However, I'm still affected by it when those who make laws base them on their religious beliefs. Or they have a loud enough voice they influence the lawmakers and policymakers. That is a problem.

This is why, IMO, the government should be secular.

 

[Jainarayan]

This is why, IMO, the government should be secular.

It is... on paper. But that doesn't stop them.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It's only condemned if you are part of said religion. There are a lot of religions in the world that have teachings I don't agree with. My solution? I don't become a part of that religion. To me, it's as simple as that. IMHO of course.

I agree with you to a point. Unfortunately, there are too many religions (especially in the USA) who believe they have both the right and duty, to force everyone around them to follow their ugly bigoted teachings.

Ironically, these religions are also quite often a source of public shame, as their leaders seem to never apply their rules to themselves...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Yep, negative unnecessary miracle,

So your 'god' is not actually in charge of anything? Good to know-- in that we agree with you.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

That is miracle, like talking donkey, I am talking to animals, wait, I'm going to talk to my dog Moose, he'll be surprised!

Studies have shown, that dogs-- if they are not of a stupid dumb breed-- are quite capable of comprehending human language.

Indeed-- many dogs are also quite capable of modulating their barks, in such a way, their human companions quite readily understand what the dog is communicating.

Cats, too-- I had a Siamese mix who had explicitly distinct 'meows' that had clear meanings. He understood quite a few words too.

Language is hardly unique to humans.

 

[columbus]

Immoral human behavior IS NOT at the will of God, just the opposite in fact.

But what is immoral behavior?
For most of the history of Christendom it included absolute monarchy, wife beating, genocide, and slavery.

I'm glad you have adopted more secular humanist values, along with most of Christendom. But it isn't scriptural, no matter how hard you try to retrofit representative government and human rights into the Bible.
Tom

 

[David1967]

I agree with you to a point. Unfortunately, there are too many religions (especially in the USA) who believe they have both the right and duty, to force everyone around them to follow their ugly bigoted teachings.

Ironically, these religions are also quite often a source of public shame, as their leaders seem to never apply their rules to themselves...

I don't disagree with you. You took my comment a step further. My comment was not considering anything beyond whether or not to take part in a faith that you disagree with.

 

[JJ50]

But what is immoral behavior?
For most of the history of Christendom it included absolute monarchy, wife beating, genocide, and slavery.

I'm glad you have adopted more secular humanist values, along with most of Christendom. But it isn't scriptural, no matter how hard you try to retrofit representative government and human rights into the Bible.
Tom

There is a lot of immorality in the Bible, much of it attributed to, or instigated by the god character.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Why not?

Did you seriously just reply the above to the question:

What is a "natural law" and who gets to declare them? You?

???

You know who you get to declare "natural law" for? YOURSELF. And then, if you want the rest of us to be willing to examine your definition and summation of "natural law" and adopt it ourselves then you are going to need some pretty darn convincing and compelling argumentation that HAS TO BE based on a whole lot more than "why not?"

Do you understand this? Otherwise, when you ask me why I think everyone should stop believing in God, I can just simply say "I think belief in God goes against natural law." And when you press me with "Who gets to establish natural law? You?" I can just reply with "Why not?" - and apparently that would be sufficient to your mind, and then BY YOUR OWN LOGIC, you should simply accept whatever I define "natural law" as from that moment on. That's what you are asking the people in this thread to do... and that's the reason you are catching all this flak.

Any of this registering?

 

[shmogie]

But what is immoral behavior?
For most of the history of Christendom it included absolute monarchy, wife beating, genocide, and slavery.

I'm glad you have adopted more secular humanist values, along with most of Christendom. But it isn't scriptural, no matter how hard you try to retrofit representative government and human rights into the Bible.
Tom

The New Testament has nothing to say about government, except be a peaceful citizen.

Human rights are the foundation of the NT. The very fact that it does not teach conversion by the sword is proof of that. Christ said when the message is shared, and someone rejects it, move on down the road. He did not say knock them down, put a sword at their throat, and force them to say the words of conversion.

What other alleged Christians have done is immaterial as relates to the teachings of the NT. In fact, the NT predicted that these people would arise within the church.

Using your reasoning, I can say that because Germany allowed naziś to gain power, all Germans are naziś.

You are hung up on group think. Everything must be classified within the framework of group dynamics.

This is not Christianity, though some try very hard to make it so.

The New Testament makes it very clear, there are two churches, the physical, and the spiritual. They are not the same, or composed of the same people. In the end, only the spiritual church has any value to God. The spiritual church, the world wide body of Christ, the true Christians, are only known to Him.

The physical church is known to all who want to look. Using your reasoning, in the past the physical church has done terrible things, contrary to the very teachings they say they follow. Therefore, they represent Christianity. I assure you that when all these things that were occurring, members of the spiritual church were not involved, did not support them, and many died protesting these satanic acts.

The NT makes clear that at the time of itś writing, the wolves were already in with the sheep.

So, you may judge me by the standards I try and live by. You may judge the NT upon what Christ and the Apostles taught.

It is futile and disingenuous to judge me or the teachings of the NT by the actions of self proclaimed Christians.

As Christ said, you will know who they really are by their actions, not by their words.

 

[shmogie]

Which is why most people, including religious people, are dropping the arbitrary scriptural morality of old and adopting secular humanist values.
Tom

They are free to do as they choose. Secular humanist values Are contrary to Christian values and their adherents will know in the end, if rejecting the teachings of Christ was a wise thing.

 

[QuestioningMind]

It is aberration of natural laws.

No it isn't. It happens in nature all of the time.

 

[shmogie]

Couldn’t you say the same for interracial coupling? Mark of Cain and all that.
Once thought as immoral, even by some atheists. Then accepted by degrees to the point where one dare not voice opposition, lest one is shunned by civilised society.

I find the homophobic arguments are nothing but rehashed interracial arguments. It’s kind of eerie, not going to lie.

I often wonder if the continuing rehashing of the homosexuality vs Christianity is nothing more than society wondering why it was such a-holes to innocent people to begin with and just merely looking for someone to blame for such behaviour.

But that’s just me. Even the scriptures of my traditions are rather optional.

Well,those with the mark of Cain were protected, not condemned. The NT says absolutely nothing about interracial marriage, nothing. In fact, it strongly promotes the idea that all people are exactly the same.

Homophobic arguments ? A phobia is an irrational fear. I have no fear of homosexuals.

Nor do I present a ¨homophobic¨ argument.

Anyone is free to do whatever they choose. If you are a homosexual, I couldn´t care less, your life.

However, if you are a member of the church, and do not change your homosexual behavior, you should be expelled. Church membership is purely voluntary, and you essentially agree to a contract whereby you will keep Christian standards to the best of your ability. If you don´t, church membership is not a thing for you.

There are enough churches now who blow off Biblical standards, and they will happily accept you, and your money even more.

Why does God dislike homosexuality, I really don´t know. He doesn´t keep me informed on things like that.

I owe every person, including homosexuals, respect, kindness, and civil treatment. If they are in need, I have the same duty to them, as anyone else, to help where I can.

The only issue between us would be church membership, it is something they cannot have from my church as described in the New Testament.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you stop natural law procreation, what would happen to humanity? If you stop homosexual sex , what would happen to humanity?

If you stop farming, what would happen to humanity? If you stop religious ministry, what would happen to humanity?

Obviously, it violates natural law to be a priest or religious minister. They should give up their callings and become farmers.

 

[leov]

No it isn't. It happens in nature all of the time.

"Animals have been observed to engage in sex for social interaction, demonstration of dominance, aggression relief, exchange for significant materials, and sexual stimulation." Non-reproductive sexual behavior in animals - Wikipedia
there is a purpose in doing that in nature.