Men and Abortion

[Callisto]

@Callisto & @Wildswanderer
I assume the clinics are being run predominantly by men, yes. Heck I would venture the majority are Christian men. Acceptance of women in the workforce is still pretty spotty, and it takes time to build a career once you're finally allowed to enter any said field (health care in this case). So, it leads to reason there would be fewer women-operated clinics, they haven't had the opportunity for long enough to have a chance to.

Back in the 1970s when abortions became legal they were done in hospitals that tended to have mostly male doctors. The legalization paved the way for free-standing clinics which are often run by women. Eventually the majority of abortions were handled in these independent clinics.

Beyond that, back to my Christian point: From what I've read and been told, there's a hearty number of these clinics that practice foul tactics which play into the hands of the 'pro-life' camp.
Now, I'm "pro life", I love life. But, I would never take the opportunity or option of choice from a woman because I love life. More over, in America, we're being hypocritical if we allow states to restrict these liberties from any of our fellow countrymen!

Can you give examples of foul tactics? I'm not sure what you're referring to or the reasoning they would be employed.

My opinion of the SCOTUS decision on Roe v Wade? "One small stumble for man, teetering on the precipice of a giant tumble backwards for mankind."

I don't think it's a small stumble but agree it's definitely a colossal step backward. Alas, this is likely just the tip of the iceberg. SCOTUS has a long history of expanding rights, not taking them away and it's atypical to be so blatantly partisan and to reverse previous Court's rulings.

 

[The Hammer]

wanting and being are not the same thing. If a child was conceived with every copulation the world would be overun with children. Most men and women having sex aren't doing it for procreation. It's not rocket science.

That's my point most of us aren't doing it for procreation. It cements a relationship.

Therefore equal access to abortion services and contraception are a societal must.

Unless we want to be overrun by people who can't afford them. And more and more people end up on the streets or with CPS.

 

[Sand Dancer]

@crossfire ... This is pretty fricking disgusting:
"Louisiana’s maternal mortality rate of 58.1 deaths per 100,000 births is the highest in the United States. The rate is about four times higher for black mothers than it is for white mothers, an issue that boils down to implicit bias. 59% of black maternal deaths are preventable, compared to 9% of white maternal deaths. Louisiana’s Joint Commission will be looking for new standards around pregnancy-related medical problems such as hemorrhaging and hypertension to be in place starting in January 2021. Additionally, state officials are rallying around the goal of reducing maternal deaths by 20% by Mother’s Day 2020."

That's an excerpt from your link... Doesn't get much worse.

Basically, we're one step from these backwards thinkers reverting to believing people with melanin aren't people, justifying their building of some step pyramids so they can start sacrificing babies in tribute to God. I wish this were more hyperbolic than it sounds...

Wow! Staggering. What are the preventable issues that are leading to the deaths?

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

Can you give examples of foul tactics? I'm not sure what you're referring to or the reasoning they would be employed.

I cannot provide any reliable source for an example .

However, If the claims are assumed of merit, they claim clinics are in one fashion or another linked to the church, and attempts to condition young women that they are making a poor decision based on religion, rather than simply providing all the knowledge we have on the topic to help her make a pragmatic and informed decision.

Not sure if this is fact, but if it is, I'm not a fan.

Edit: I will add, that from the stories I've heard right here on this forum from 'escapees' of the US Bible-Belt... This tactic could be rated as "Bible-Belt Dogma lite". I am uncertain how they read (if they do) the book they claim to be versed in and justify how they treat others. They emotionally and mentally disparage individuals at the times they most desperately need help, supposed loved ones. The Westboro Baptist Church has been in the tabloids regarding such practices, for example.

 

[Sand Dancer]

It means what it says. Those people who you say aren't pro life really are, from womb to tomb.

They tend to be pro-war, against affordable medical care for all, pro-death penalty, against programs that feed and house poor people, etc. Sounds pro-life only in the womb and in the tomb.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

What are the preventable issues that are leading to the deaths?

If I'm understanding, hemorrhaging is the primary cause, and if the clinic/hospital doesn't have ample stock of quality equipment... They spend $$ to 'keep shareholders happy', as a priority over staffing and stocking these facilities.

 

[Sand Dancer]

If I'm understanding, hemorrhaging is the primary cause, and if the clinic/hospital doesn't have ample stock of quality equipment... They spend $$ to 'keep shareholders happy', as a priority over staffing and stocking these facilities.

You did mention that, but I wonder why. High blood pressure? Sickle Cell anemia?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Should men who have casual sex and father a child be required, made law, to financially and physically raise their unwanted and or unplanned babies? forced to coparent?

Sure, why not. People should be punished for creating ******* children they abandon and screw up for their whole lives, especially if they do it multiple times. It's a very evil thing to do, and it causes a ton of problems for society. I've heard of many men who have each fathered 10+ children with different women. A famous example of this is Nick Cannon, who is totally disgusting. My own POS sperm donor played a similar game (among many other things). Jail them and chemically castrate them until they learn their lesson, maybe.

 

[idea]

That's news to me... "Most men don't want to be father...."

Poll: Most men aspire to be dads

"More than 8 in 10 men said they wanted to be fathers or would like to be one someday.

Three-quarters of dads said they were married when their first child was born.

Men were more likely than women to say they'd like to become fathers to carry on traditions."

# of single moms vs. number of single dads throws the above on its head.

 

[The Hammer]

# of single moms vs. number of single dads throws the above on its head.

Nope, that's a court thing. The courts are heavily in favor of women (even incompetent ones), to keep their kids.

I spent 2 years fighting an ex for custody of my daughter because she repeatedly would "go to treatment", get her back, and then have her taken again when it came to light she was still doing drugs.

Despite all this, I had to jump through hoops and beg and plead for them to take her rights, so I could gain custodianship.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Sure, why not. People should be punished for creating ******* children they abandon and screw up for their whole lives, especially if they do it multiple times. It's a very evil thing to do, and it causes a ton of problems for society. I've heard of many men who have each fathered 10+ children with different women. A famous example of this is Nick Cannon, who is totally disgusting. My own POS sperm donor played a similar game (among many other things). Jail them and chemically castrate them until they learn their lesson, maybe.

Same guy who was married to Mariah Carey??? Wow! Great, knock up celebrities, and he knows they won't ask for his money.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Same guy who was married to Mariah Carey??? Wow! Great, knock up celebrities, and he knows they won't ask for his money.

Yeah. He's been pumping out the kids since then, with random women he has no plans to ever commit to, and he's very proud of himself. He's had 7 kids with four different women so far and a few of them were knocked up at the same time.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Yeah. He's been pumping out the kids since then, with random women he has no plans to ever commit to, and he's very proud of himself. He's had 7 kids with four different women so far and a few of them were knocked up at the same time.

Tie a knot in that thing.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

# of single moms vs. number of single dads throws the above on its head.

In Michigan if there is a separation, children go to the mother by default. Father must acquire legal representation to properly present a case why the children should be placed in custody of the father. In Michigan, this is commonplace. Men who fail to pay child support find themselves in jail once their bill accumulates over $2,000 no questions asked, regardless of circumstances if you can't pay during that FOC hearing, the only parent that leaves the courthouse that evening, is the mother. That's less than 2 months' payments at the rate my dad paid, regardless of reason or intent. Locking them up, mind you, terminates them from any occupation they may have had, effectively neutralizing their future ability to pay the child support.

I know a drug-addled unemployed mother who is considered better fit for parenting than the slightly less drug-addled, yet employed, father. Under the basis that the father was single, while the mother was dating (probably her dealer) another posterchild of addiction at the time of the last hearing for custody. I don't know the answer, but I think they rewarded the worse of two evils.

My father, an employed GM worker of 20+ years, with a house mortgage paid off, and a wife. Was paying my mother $280/week to support my sister and myself, while my mom struggled working 2 jobs sometimes 3 trying to fund a home for her kids as she got moved around due to unforeseen circumstances sometimes, and improvements to location or occupation other times... If father had custody, we would have had stable foundation, mother would have had more energy and time to get situated. My mother never put in effort to help my father attain any more rights or lenience from the FOC, so until I moved to his house at the age of 14, he got to see me and my sister twice a year. He had our names tattooed on his heart. He wanted to be a father, we were his purpose for existence, and made it abundantly clear that he loved us both with all of his heart.

Thinks aren't black and white. "Pro this" or "Pro that" is a 2-dimensional person, humans aren't 2D.

 

[DKH]

Should men who have casual sex and father a child be required, made law, to financially and physically raise their unwanted and or unplanned babies? forced to coparent?

The Statistics of Fatherless Children

The negative effects of a child without a father can be seen in countless studies and reports. The statistics show the importance of a father figure in the majority of children's lives.
According to "What Can the Federal Government Do To Decrease Crime and Revitalize Communities?" from the U.S. Department of Justice, children from fatherless homes account for:

• Suicide: 63 percent of youth suicides
• Runaways: 90 percent of all homeless and runaway youths
• Behavioral Disorders: 85 percent of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders
• High School Dropouts: 71 percent of all high school dropouts
• Juvenile Detention Rates: 70 percent of juveniles in state-operated institutions
• Substance Abuse: 75 percent of adolescent patients in substance abuse centers
• Aggression: 75 percent of rapists motivated by displaced anger

Maybe, this is why there are social and religious laws related to this topic. And, why many want the easy way out of a preventable crisis (No, I'm not referring to abortion)!

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Should men who have casual sex and father a child be required, made law, to financially and physically raise their unwanted and or unplanned babies? forced to coparent?

It depends on the situation.
This isn't something you can make sweeping statements about.
Context is important here.

It's easy to imagine scenario's where it would be unfair to demand financial and / or emotional investment.
It's just as easy to imagine scenario's where the opposite is true.

This is not a black and white thing.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If prochoice people are consistent they should be ok with the father choosing to not taking care of the child.

That would depend on why they are "prochoice" and how they motivate that.

I'm "prochoice", but that doesn't mean that I think "anything goes in all circumstances".

As I said in my reply to the OP...
This topic deals with very contextually dependent situations.
You'ld have to look at it on a case by case basis.

Take, for example, a scenario where a 30-year old woman really wants a child, but doesn't want a boyfriend.
She tricks a guy into a one-night stand, making him believe she is on the pill and that getting a child is not an option no matter what, in an effort to actually become pregnant - and succeeds.

It would be very wrong to force this guy to financially support them now.


The other way round... A guy in a long term relationship, buys a house with her, plans on growing old together and plans on children. Then when the girl is pregnant he says "see ya" and refuses to help out with the child.
Now that situation is very very different.... Here, the guy has a responsibility. He made prior commitments.
You can change your mind all you want. Yes, you can leave her - and the kid even. But you still have prior commitments with financial impact. You can't just "choose" to run away from those.

See?

It's easy to imagine scenario's where it can go both ways.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

most men don't want to be fathers; most men want sex but not children.

In my experience, that isn't true at all.

Most men I know, including myself, want children.
Most boys however.....

in fact sex is not necessary for planned parent hood.

It's a lot more fun though.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

men whi want children engage in the planning. Men engaging in casual sex aren't interested in children. They're interested in sex.

By definition of "casual sex".
That's recreational.

And it's not just men doing that. There's a woman under them. Or on them. Or.. well, you know.
These woman are also just having fun, not interested in children.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Men and women are having sex more often for sex than for children. People who really wanting children are planning and using sex to achieve that goal.

Go back any number of years. 100. 300. 1000. 3000.
Go give them the pill, condoms and the morning after pill.

What? Don't you think they'll use them and perhaps have sex more often?
People have been having sex for fun / pleasure ever since there were people.
It's just so that only rather recently have we learned how to avoid it ending up in getting pregnant.


That we can today control and actually properly plan pregnancies thanks to such medical tools, is a good thing.
It avoids quite a lot of misery.

Ironically the "pro life" people want to take those tools away.
I guess life isn't worth living without such misery in their view.