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Matthew 6:7, repetitive prayer

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by lioncub1503, Oct 22, 2018.

  1. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    You are correct. What you are describing is not meditation. That is not what the chanting of mantras does. You are incorrect about that. Mantras help facilitate true meditation, which engages the heart, mind, body, soul, and spirit before God. There is no "void" state in the sense of going "blank", or a state where emotions take over. It's the opposite of that. The Light of God is what takes over. See my further explanations of this error you are also repeating in response to Lioncub in the previous two posts.
     
    #21 Windwalker, Oct 27, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  2. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    It is in eastern religious practice.....it is not a Christian practice. If Jesus did not chant mantras, or command his disciples to perform them.....I'm leaving them alone.

    Show me where Jesus or any of his disciples chanted mantras and I will consider your 'further explanations'...otherwise I am dismissing what you claim about them. They are taken from religion that is not Bible based, and therefore not something I am willing to play with...I frankly don't need that to facilitate communion with my God....if you do, then go for it.
     
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  3. lioncub1503

    lioncub1503 Seven ate nine

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    We believe that if people are open to change, and they examine all the evidence, they will find us to be “the truth”.

    What I was meaning is that they ask God for something in line with his will, and follow through, and he will support you. If you don’t do anything, he has nothing to bless.

    Thank you very much for telling me what it is like for someone who is actually part of the church.

    We prefer to use the bible as it Is direct communication with God rather than focus on ourselves, but it is your religion, your choice.

    I will reply to the rest, but bare with me please as I do not know when I will next have Internet connection.
     
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  4. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    Do you not ever recite prayers, ever? How do you know Jesus never chanted a mantra? "Were you there?" :) And even if he didn't do that particular practice, that does not mean you can't. Jesus also did not drive a car, or take a bus. Yet, that is no problem for you, is it?

    If you wish to say because something wasn't recorded, we shouldn't do anything new, is ridiculous. Your world would be living 2000 years ago, not today. You may as well be Amish, or something. :)
     
    #24 Windwalker, Oct 28, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  5. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    And this is why you will be spiritually stuck. You think you have it right. Your ego blocks the Light of God from illuminating the world with Grace. Such thinking is the opposite of humility and will block growth.

    The JW's are not The Truth. God is. That you think you are, proves to us you don't know the Truth, but rather only a facsimile of God as a projection of the ego. "I thank God, I'm not a sinner like this man over here", proves the truth of it's source right there as the ego. "If they truly are seeking God, they will join our church," is the same thing.

    The reality is, if they are truly seeking God, they will find whatever religious supports that will help that grow in them. It may be in your church, or it may be in another, or a different religion altogether. Your group is not the Door. The Spirit of God is. If your group does not open people to that, then it's a false religion. It is invalid. If it does, then who is to complain? But the litmus test for validity is as Jesus taught, "By their fruits you shall know them".

    Yes, if you ask God for something from a heart of sincerity, he will answer you. No matter what your religious beliefs are, including yours.

    You being part of that church does not mean everything your believe is correct. Your understanding of what a mantra is, is clearly wrong. I'm hoping I have been able to correct that for you, and now you will no longer repeat this error, as knowing better and still repeating that becomes a lie, bearing false witness. Spreading lies, is not Christian.

    How in the word is the Bible a "direct communication with God"? You have to read it and interpret it with your mind. That's not direct at all. It's mediated through filters of your mind, which vary from person to person, culture to culture, language to language. None of that is direct.

    However, mystical experience is direct, which you chose to dismiss out of fear as "psychotic", or some such silliness. :)

    What does that mean?

    Fair enough. But do take the time to sincerely consider what I am sharing. I am writing these replies with the belief that you are sincere. Listening, considering, and being able reflect back an understanding of what I am saying to me, will let me know where you are coming from in this as well.
     
    #25 Windwalker, Oct 28, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
  6. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    One thing I do know is that Jesus was Jewish and the Jewish faith tolerated no adoption of false religious beliefs or practices. Christianity didn't either.

    So what is a mantra?

    According to one dictionary definition.....

    "(originally in Hinduism and Buddhism) a word or sound repeated to aid concentration in meditation.
    "a mantra is given to a trainee meditator when his teacher initiates him"
    So mantras come from non-Jewish and non-Christian religions.

    Your religious practice may include them, but I personally see no point because a prayer for me will do exactly the same thing.....prepare my heart for communication with my God.

    To each his own. If the Bible tells me that adopting things that are from other religions (which is condoning the worship of other gods) is something to avoid, then I will. It calls those practices spiritually "unclean" in God's eyes. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) I believe that we either attach ourselves to, or separate ourselves from God by what we choose to practice.....or not practice, spiritually speaking.
     
    #26 Deeje, Oct 28, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2018
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  7. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    If mantras do the exact same thing for others what your style of prayer do does for you, then how, or why are you against it? You don't find prayer beneficial? Why if matras do the same thing for them that the way you do things does for you, would you forbid that to them? Are you mean? Do you want to deny your brother God in what ways work for him? How does that reflect God's Love? Are you angry at them?
     
  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    I had to smile at this response....there is one simple reason for avoiding practices that come from what I consider to be false worship....the Bible says to touch nothing spiritually "unclean". Not complicated, is it?

    Can you tell me why you need to adopt false religious practices to achieve what acceptable prayer to God will accomplish just as well? Can you justify that to me without the emotional appeals?
    If God won't accept them, why would I? :shrug:
     
  9. Windwalker

    Windwalker Integralist
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    But if it benefits them the same as your style of praying ostensibly does for you, how is it possibly "spiritually unclean"? You would be saying your prayer is unclean too. You can't have it both ways. If your praying does the same thing that mantras do for them, then you are saying it is effective, not "unclean". Stop with the hypocrisy here already.

    Effective prayer, in any form, is acceptable to God. Your legalism is not, however.

    Can you justify your double standards to me without irrationality how that if chanting a mantra brings someone closer to God, that is not acceptable to God?
     
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  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Do you have any idea what that's a reference to and how important that Torah concept is in Judaism in terms of applications? IOW, do you really understand what "unclean" is in regards to the Commandments as found in Torah?
     
  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Because of where it originated. Do you understand the reasons why God forbade the adoption of false religious practices for his people? They are offensive to him. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

    Encyclopedia of Religion, Communication, and Media

    Why did God put those Israelites to death who held a festival to their God but used an Egyptian idol and called it Yahweh?

    Why did Elijah put the Baal prophets to the test before Israel who thought they could combine Yahweh's worship with Baal? Elijah asked them why they were "limping on two different opinions"....that if Yahweh was the true God then serve him alone, but if Baal was then go and serve him. There had to be a separation. It was offensive to God to include false religious practices in the worship that was supposed to be uncontaminated by the worship given to other gods.

    The fact that this is something you continue to justify is telling.

    Are you serious? I promote clean worship, uncontaminated by adopted paganism.....and I have a double standard?? Can you hear yourself?


    I have told you what the Bible says.....you are free to make of that what you will. The heart will justify what it wants. (Jeremiah 17:9)

    The question has to be....which "god is it bringing you closer to? How would you know? The devil is a deceiver. (2 Corinthians 15:11-15)

    The Bible is unambiguous to me....

    "Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.”
    (2 Corinthians 6:14-18 - ESV)

    If we want God to accept us as his children, then we cannot adopt these practices and remain "clean" in His eyes.

    If I add poison to a glass of water, would you drink it? Even if I assured you that it was only a little bit poisoned? How much poison would you accept?

    That is how I see this issue scripturally.....you can evaluate it for yourself.
     
    #31 Deeje, Oct 29, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Yes I do metis.....do you? Israel was not to combine false worship with true worship....to have "no other gods but Yahweh". Yet Israel fell to adopting the religious practices of the nations, and suffered God's judgment because of it.

    What is the origin of chanting?

    Encyclopedia of Religion, Communication, and Media

    Jesus said NOT to use repetitive prayer.....and that was just before he gave the model prayer, which is parroted off in churches all around the world. It shows how much people actually read scripture, rather than just following church tradition.
    Idolatry was forbidden yet images are very much part of Catholic worship. Since God forbade the 'making' of images, there is no justification for their inclusion at all.

    Paul stated.... "for we walk by faith, not by sight." (2 Corinthians 5:7 - ESV) So faith does not require the use of visual prompts.

    Jesus never once said that he was God incarnate....yet that doctrine is the very foundation upon which Christendom is built. If the foundation is faulty, then what you build on it will be equally faulty. It can give rise to other equally flawed doctrines like the place of Mary as "the Mother of God".....as if God could have a mother. o_O

    How many pagan religions have trinities of gods? Yet the two other "Abrahamic" faiths reject the idea completely. Which 'horse' would you straddle on that one? :shrug:
     
  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    There are pictures ("images") in your publications of people and animals, so is that also idolatry?

    BTW, "idolatry" also involves worshiping an object, and Catholics are told that this is forbidden, which I have shown you before through official Catholic sources.

    Is a picture an "image"? Do you have a camera?

    You have posted many pictures here at RF, so if "visual prompts" are so unethical why do you use them so much?

    You obviously don't either understand the concept or you choose to be obtuse.

    Mary is the mother of Jesus, and most Christians, including Catholics, believe that Jesus is part of the Trinity that posits the worship of One God, not three deities. Look up "manifestation" or "essence" (Plato's terminology) for clarification, although this has been explained to you many times before.

    The Trinitarian concept does not posit three gods, Deeje.

    If you don't believe in the Trinitarian concept, that's fine as I don't as well, but misrepresenting what the concept actually entails in not being honest.
     
    #33 metis, Oct 30, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2018
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  14. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    It's not the use of standardized liturgical prayers that Jesus is condemning; it was (and AFAIK still is) common Jewish practice to recite Psalms as prayers, and Jesus Himself did this. Some of His last words on the cross were quotations of Psalms. So clearly it isn't using formulaic prayers that Jesus is against here.

    The full context of this verse would be more helpful:

    5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

    Jesus was condemning those who make long, showy prayers in public to say "Hey everyone, look how holy and pious I am!" The operating word in the repetitions is "vain repetitions". The Greek here is something along the lines of either stuttering or talking idly or with worthless words. Those who make vain repetitions while praying are those who pad out their prayers and put in as much filler as possible to look pious.
     
  15. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    I and my best friends from high school say the same greetings, make the same jokes and say the same goodbyes more than seven years later. Our friendship is still strong. Likewise, my family and I ask each other the same questions as always and usually give about the same answers as always. Sure, some new stuff comes into play in both of those scenarios, but relationships are grounded in stability, and it's natural for ritual interactions to form without you even knowing that it's a ritual. Ritualized interactions are by no means bad; they're familiar, comforting, and reaffirm the stability of your bond. I may have the crappiest day ever, but I can still expect my friends to brighten up my day with the same old greetings of "Sup nerd" and "How's life" and "Hey _____". And when it's time to sign off or say goodbye, I know I'll get a hug (if in person) and a "Peace out girl scout" (even though I'm a dude) or "Later nerds" or "Be safe driving".
     
  16. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    This is certainly not the same as a conversation where interaction is required and interchange of information and experiences are shared. If you only ever said the same words in every conversation, then the friendship would become boring, meaningless, repetitive 'same old, same old'. It would not stand the test of time...it would die a natural death through lack of interest.

    God is not just a being who requires mindless performance...he too needs intelligent interaction with his human creation. We alone can dialogue intelligently with him.....why would we think mindless repetition would please him?

    Paul, at Romans 8:26-27 says...."In like manner, the spirit also joins in with help for our weakness; for the problem is that we do not know what we should pray for as we need to, but the spirit itself pleads for us with unuttered groanings. 27 But the one who searches the hearts knows what the meaning of the spirit is, because it is pleading in harmony with God for the holy ones."

    This shows that we don't even need words....hearts can speak to God without words.
     
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