Materialists don't value life all that much

[The Transcended Omniverse]

That is a lot like a lost love. We can put our whole life meaning into it but that is a choice. Losing the love our world can seemingly fall apart and meaning is very much what we choose it to be.

Also it isn't as if we we know death is the end, we know no such thing. Belief in any afterlife is also a choice. I have still yet to see your proof that death is the end, nobody has such evidence.

I am trying to choose right now to have meaning in my life despite this need that is making me miserable. It is not working at all. I think it is a lie to say that meaning is a choice.

 

[idav]

I think it is a lie to say that meaning is a choice.

Why, because meaning doesn't have anything to do with facts. Once facts are known it is a choice what we do with knowledge. I could be all knowing and my purpose will still be a choice to serve evil or serve good.

When we don't have enough facts then it still is a choice to believe it or not believe it, cause it would be guessing, which is more like gambling, choosing red over black is an unknown.

Regarding love for the lord or eternity in bliss and what not, it is a choice to put ones purpose toward that regardless whether you believe by faith or are actually knowledgeable about it.

Thats even in the whole story about the rebelion in heaven, even this heaven was never perfect, satan had free will to hate it and choose a different path and choose a different purpose.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Why, because meaning doesn't have anything to do with facts. Once facts are known it is a choice what we do with knowledge. I could be all knowing and my purpose will still be a choice to serve evil or serve good.

When we don't have enough facts then it still is a choice to believe it or not believe it, cause it would be guessing, which is more like gambling, choosing red over black is an unknown.

Regarding love for the lord or eternity in bliss and what not, it is a choice to put ones purpose toward that regardless whether you believe by faith or are actually knowledgeable about it.

Thats even in the whole story about the rebelion in heaven, even this heaven was never perfect, satan had free will to hate it and choose a different path and choose a different purpose.

What I mean here is that I am in a certain mental state. A state in which everything is completely blank. Everything is completely dead and meaningless. I cannot change this mental state. Therefore, meaning is not a choice. The only way to get meaning back into my life again is if this mental state were to be gone. Try as I might to somehow magically alter my mental state to bring meaning back into my life, it doesn't work. Therefore, meaning is not a choice.

 

[idav]

What I mean here is that I am in a certain mental state. A state in which everything is completely blank. Everything is completely dead and meaningless. I cannot change this mental state. Therefore, meaning is not a choice. The only way to get meaning back into my life again is if this mental state were to be gone. Try as I might to somehow magically alter my mental state to bring meaning back into my life, it doesn't work. Therefore, meaning is not a choice.

Thats nihilism and/or fatalism, I wouldn't recommend it, nor do I agree with their premises. I think those fatalistic views are still based on faith.

 

[gnostic]

People who don't want to live forever do not value life all that much. If they are willing to sacrifice a belief in an eternal afterlife for something else, then they do not value life all that much.

I find the opposite of what you wrote here to be true.

I find people who are so obsessed with the afterlife, don't value life now, so they are not actually "living".

They care so much of promise of eternal life, and at the same time have mortal fear of death or eternal torment, that they allow their fear get in the way of living.

I hate to use the word "sin", but I find those that are obsessed with sins, that they bottled it all up, lose sight when they do the opposite of not sinning, and do something so horrid and unspeakable in the name of the religion or deity they followed.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

Thats nihilism and/or fatalism, I wouldn't recommend it, nor do I agree with their premises. I think those fatalistic views are still based on faith.

Well, let me just say that nothing is working out for me. No matter how much I try to choose to have meaning in this life, it doesn't happen. I still remain in this mental state in which everything is completely dead and meaningless.

 

[idav]

Well, let me just say that nothing is working out for me. No matter how much I try to choose to have meaning in this life, it doesn't happen. I still remain in this mental state in which everything is completely dead and meaningless.

I've been there and know what your going through. Deconversion is a seriously hard ordeal.
Ask yourself some things. What does meaning and purpose really mean? The purpose and meaning to me is what comes of all of life which has been driven with purpose for billions of years.
I'm sorrry you feel the way you do, I don't wish those feelings even on my enemies. If there is anything I can help with feel free to pm me.

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

I see no reason to have a family or to cherish this life if all we are is just life forms that live and forever perish. If this is all we are, then we as human beings were better off having never been born in the first place. This life and this entire universe was better off having never come into being. This being the one and only life I will ever have is not any reason at all to me to cherish it and make the best of it.

 

[Sapiens]

People who don't want to live forever do not value life all that much. If they are willing to sacrifice a belief in an eternal afterlife for something else, then they do not value life all that much. Because if they did, then they would want to live forever. They would want to believe in an eternal afterlife. Therefore, the fact that they would want to sacrifice such a belief means they grow tired eventually and wish to just forever remain dead.

But a person who values life so profoundly would never want that taken away from them. They would want life to last forever. They would want to believe in an eternal blissful afterlife. So the fact that I have such a strong desire to live forever just goes to show you how much I value living and being happy. That makes me much more of a person than any materialist who would be willing to give up their belief in the eternal blissful afterlife.

Edit: If a person gives up their comforting belief of living forever for the sake of what is true, then it means they value the truth more than they do living life itself. If they valued living life itself, then they would want to believe that they would live forever regardless if it is true or not.

There are those who value reality over ego who realize that lifespan itself is part of the evolution of most all species.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

What I mean here is that I am in a certain mental state. A state in which everything is completely blank. Everything is completely dead and meaningless. I cannot change this mental state. Therefore, meaning is not a choice. The only way to get meaning back into my life again is if this mental state were to be gone. Try as I might to somehow magically alter my mental state to bring meaning back into my life, it doesn't work. Therefore, meaning is not a choice.

I suffer from chronic depression and anxiety. I get it. However, meaning can sometimes be like a car that won't start. Sometimes you have to push it down the hill to get it going.

Help others have a better life and your meaning will start to blossom again.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

It's not a matter of wanting to live forever or not, but believing if such is possible.

Would you believe a smartphone was possible 100 years ago?

i.e. 'wanting' desire, purpose, is the far better predictor of what may be created, than our ability to understand the technicalities of the creation

 

[Altfish]

People who don't want to live forever do not value life all that much. If they are willing to sacrifice a belief in an eternal afterlife for something else, then they do not value life all that much. Because if they did, then they would want to live forever. They would want to believe in an eternal afterlife. Therefore, the fact that they would want to sacrifice such a belief means they grow tired eventually and wish to just forever remain dead.

But a person who values life so profoundly would never want that taken away from them. They would want life to last forever. They would want to believe in an eternal blissful afterlife. So the fact that I have such a strong desire to live forever just goes to show you how much I value living and being happy. That makes me much more of a person than any materialist who would be willing to give up their belief in the eternal blissful afterlife.

Edit: If a person gives up their comforting belief of living forever for the sake of what is true, then it means they value the truth more than they do living life itself. If they valued living life itself, then they would want to believe that they would live forever regardless if it is true or not.

Surely though, if you believe this is the only life you have then you will make sure that you make the most of it. Enjoy every moment.
If there is an afterlife, why then worry about this life. There'll be another one along soon?

 

[Willamena]

But a person who values life so profoundly would never want that taken away from them. They would want life to last forever. They would want to believe in an eternal blissful afterlife. So the fact that I have such a strong desire to live forever just goes to show you how much I value living and being happy. That makes me much more of a person than any materialist who would be willing to give up their belief in the eternal blissful afterlife.

By some reckoning, the desire to cling to the material world or an afterlife imagined to be comparable to the material world is what makes one a materialist.

Edit: If a person gives up their comforting belief of living forever for the sake of what is true, then it means they value the truth more than they do living life itself. If they valued living life itself, then they would want to believe that they would live forever regardless if it is true or not.

Is that true?

 

[The Transcended Omniverse]

(post deleted)

 

[Jumi]

Would you believe a smartphone was possible 100 years ago?

Depends if I was Nikola Tesla or an uneducated factory worker. No amount of wanting it would have made it a reality though.

i.e. 'wanting' desire, purpose, is the far better predictor of what may be created, than our ability to understand the technicalities of the creation

I've always wanted to teleport instantaneously to places instead of driving or walking. Perhaps to visit the far edges of our universe without a space suit. Or maybe restore ancient monuments or groves that are now under supermarket parking lots or churches.

It would be nice if I could "create a new character" without the flawed designs. Maybe "load a game" when I was 7 and start over with what I know now.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Depends if I was Nikola Tesla or an uneducated factory worker. No amount of wanting it would have made it a reality though.


I've always wanted to teleport instantaneously to places instead of driving or walking. Perhaps to visit the far edges of our universe without a space suit. Or maybe restore ancient monuments or groves that are now under supermarket parking lots or churches.

It would be nice if I could "create a new character" without the flawed designs. Maybe "load a game" when I was 7 and start over with what I know now.

wanting it made it happen though, if the whole universe really came about by unguided chance as some believe, then there's probably no reason to expect an afterlife.

But otherwise, reality reflects the wishes of it's creator, whoever that may be, just like a software engineer, he is not bound by those laws and limitations of his own creation that it's users grapple with

So an afterlife would be a question of- why not? We like to preserve the information gathered by our creations, why would the creator of humanity wish to discard everything we have learned, experienced?


yes I've thought about how great that would be to start again at 7 with what I know now... but then again.. just to play devils advocate...that means a 7 year old with a lot of worry! and so much that was new and exciting to discover the first time would be a bore

 

[Jumi]

wanting it made it happen though, if the whole universe really came about by unguided chance as some believe, then there's probably no reason to expect an afterlife.

I don't believe it came about by chance, it just existed. No one really knows what caused the Big Bang, or multiples of them. It doesn't seem like something that was guided, but more the beauty of chaos.

But otherwise, reality reflects the wishes of it's creator, whoever that may be, just like a software engineer, he is not bound by those laws and limitations of his own creation that it's users grapple with

If they exist, software engineers of the universe, they are not likely to care that much about the wants of one electron inside the hardware that runs their program.

So an afterlife would be a question of- why not? We like to preserve the information gathered by our creations, why would the creator of humanity wish to discard everything we have learned, experienced?

Dunno. I was brought up to believe that non-believers are destroyed along with their memories. Alternatively they are sent to be tortured for eternity. That type of preservation would not interest me, mind you!

yes I've thought about how great that would be to start again at 7 with what I know now... but then again.. just to play devils advocate...that means a 7 year old with a lot of worry! and so much that was new and exciting to discover the first time would be a bore

I wouldn't be sure about that. I worry less now then I do when I was 7. Since I didn't believe in God there was that nagging fear driven into it, what if those stories about damnation were true? Nope, couldn't believe it even when I tried.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I don't believe it came about by chance, it just existed. No one really knows what caused the Big Bang, or multiples of them. It doesn't seem like something that was guided, but more the beauty of chaos.


If they exist, software engineers of the universe, they are not likely to care that much about the wants of one electron inside the hardware that runs their program.

we are the characters in the game, the only means we know of, by which the universe can experience itself, contemplate it's own existence from within, the only ones able to discover and utilize all the hidden treasures around us. Again- by sheer fluke is not technically impossible, but is that really a safe assumption?

Dunno. I was brought up to believe that non-believers are destroyed along with their memories. Alternatively they are sent to be tortured for eternity. That type of preservation would not interest me, mind you!


I wouldn't be sure about that. I worry less now then I do when I was 7. Since I didn't believe in God there was that nagging fear driven into it, what if those stories about damnation were true? Nope, couldn't believe it even when I tried.

I didn't either, but likewise, heaven or hell - however one defines them, would be logical extensions of the will of a creator. Rather than what you or I might wish to be reality. If we have learned anything about reality- it's that there is always more to it than meets the eye. It doesn't feel obliged to obey Occam's Razor.

 

[Jumi]

we are the characters in the game, the only means we know of, by which the universe can experience itself, contemplate it's own existence from within, the only ones able to discover and utilize all the hidden treasures around us. Again- by sheer fluke is not technically impossible, but is that really a safe assumption?

What do you mean fluke? If things always existed and we're just one in a series then there's no fluke. Who knows what's out there in the universe. There's a ridiculous amount of galaxies and suns out there that we will never reach from our small rock in middle of nowhere. It feels arrogant to me to think we're somehow a special project with all the madness that humans have always been about.

I didn't either, but likewise, heaven or hell - however one defines them, would be logical extensions of the will of a creator. Rather than what you or I might wish to be reality. If we have learned anything about reality- it's that there is always more to it than meets the eye. It doesn't feel obliged to obey Occam's Razor.

I consider myself lucky that I never got into those beliefs. My mystical experiences make those feel even less likely than I could ever reach by reason or science.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So an afterlife would be a question of- why not? We like to preserve the information gathered by our creations, why would the creator of humanity wish to discard everything we have learned, experienced?

If he's omniscient, there is nothing he could learn.