Masturbation

[Bastet]

It merely makes things more enjoyable to have that prior knowledge.

You have nothing to compare it to, so how can you make a qualitative judgment? You've only experienced one side of the situation; and you dismiss the other side without sincere research. You can say it's enjoyable, but not more enjoyable.

Yes, I do have something to compare it to. As I said, you know very little about me.

But apart from all of that, I notice you're still ignoring the subject of mutual masturbation within a relationship. I'm not the only one who's posed the question to you, how about answering it? Since you don't seem to be backwards in coming forwards with your opinion...

 

[dan]

If you had something to compare it to you'd have shared it already.

Mutual masturbation is nothing more than an erotic pleasure. It does nothing to strengthen the bond between husband and wife; and I therefore don't value it too highly. Say what you will about it's value in discovering and practicing technique, but that is another part of fragmentation, and I'm not at all impressed by it.

 

[anders]

dan,

I am 60 years of age, and neither inexperienced nor uninformed. I agree with just about anyone in this thread - but you. You may call strengthening the bond between husband and wife fragmentation (what a contradiction in terms!); I call it love.

 

[dan]

I'd rather make love to my wife than watch her finger herself. I don't know how you define love, but I define it a little differently.

 

[Irenicas]

I don't think you're talking about difinitions, but about expressions. Also, this is a bit off topic... about masturbation here, not love.

just thought I'd stick us back on track

 

[dan]

But love is completely relevant here. God gave us the procreative power for two reasons; no less and no more. That power is to 1) create life, and 2) strengthen the bonds of love between man and wife. Say what you will, those are the two reasons sex exists. That's revealed truth rirht there.

Masturbation is cheating. It's using a God-given power in ways never intended by the Giver. There is nothing more sacred to God than sex, and when we undertake to practice it with no respect for its sanctity or importance we slap God across the mouth. He gave us His power. We have the power to create life. Have you stopped to think about that? we can create life; where there was no life we can make life. Science can never do that. It is the very power of God, and when one abuses this power it is an affront to God, regardless of how much you've fooled yourself into thinking it's OK. Rationalization and justification are the most prevelant sins in the world, and supoport of masturbation is just that. A man or woman who has the Spirit of the Lord in his life cannot but know that. A man who respects his future wife, wife, children, future children or own sexuality will recognize the worth of personal restraint in that area.

 

[Pah]

But love is completely relevant here. God gave us the procreative power for two reasons; no less and no more. That power is to 1) create life, and 2) strengthen the bonds of love between man and wife. Say what you will, those are the two reasons sex exists. That's revealed truth rirht there.

I say three reasons - the lessor is procreation, the greater is pleasure. You will find that the strenghtening of the social bond (not just man and wife but any mate) is accomplished through providing pleasure. This is not to say the social bond is subordinate to pleasure for it fill other roles as well.

Masturbation is cheating. It's using a God-given power in ways never intended by the Giver. There is nothing more sacred to God than sex, and when we undertake to practice it with no respect for its sanctity or importance we slap God across the mouth. He gave us His power. We have the power to create life. Have you stopped to think about that? we can create life; where there was no life we can make life. Science can never do that. It is the very power of God, and when one abuses this power it is an affront to God, regardless of how much you've fooled yourself into thinking it's OK. Rationalization and justification are the most prevelant sins in the world, and supoport of masturbation is just that. A man or woman who has the Spirit of the Lord in his life cannot but know that. A man who respects his future wife, wife, children, future children or own sexuality will recognize the worth of personal restraint in that area.

"Masturbation is cheating" is the same as saying snack foods are the same as gluttony. I don't buy it.

I also don't buy the "godly" aspect of procreation as the norm for it is hardly that in the form he created woman concerning fertile periods. It's been said before and apparently ignored. The cltioris in humans is positioned so that it does not "play" in straight procreation. It must be manually or orally or subject to genital rubbibg to proviide pleasure - penile penetration does not effect it.

You also have to look at God's creation in the animal kingdom where a full range of sexuality exists. Why would God create the "lower" primates to experience much if not all the sexuality that humans are capable of expressing? I think you do your God an injustice.

I would like to see your extra-biblical evidence that supports your view.

 

[dan]

I say three reasons - the lessor is procreation, the greater is pleasure. You will find that the strenghtening of the social bond (not just man and wife but any mate) is accomplished through providing pleasure.

Perhaps to you, but not according to God. If your reasoning was true then Homosexuality, polygamy and whatever other impure practice that helps you get off would be perfectly acceptable.

"Masturbation is cheating" is the same as saying snack foods are the same as gluttony.

Substantiate that claim, please.

I would like to see your extra-biblical evidence that supports your view.

I've already produced the bibliography. It's several posts back.

You also have to look at God's creation in the animal kingdom where a full range of sexuality exists. Why would God create the "lower" primates to experience much if not all the sexuality that humans are capable of expressing?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

 

[Pah]

I say three reasons - the lessor is procreation, the greater is pleasure. You will find that the strenghtening of the social bond (not just man and wife but any mate) is accomplished through providing pleasure.

Perhaps to you, but not according to God. If your reasoning was true then Homosexuality, polygamy and whatever other impure practice that helps you get off would be perfectly acceptable.

We know for certain thet God's word contiained both incest and polygamy. Why would God "inspire" the writing of those stories. There is good scholarship that shows two homosexualt relationships in God's word and let's not forget the physical passion of the Songs. I beleive you're being selective in what you find in God's word.

"Masturbation is cheating" is the same as saying snack foods are the same as gluttony.

Substantiate that claim, please.

It's an analogy - if ya don't get it, ya' don't get it.

I would like to see your extra-biblical evidence that supports your view.

I've already produced the bibliography. It's several posts back.

Produce the summary. When you can not (or refuse to) provide links, you have no arguement. There is no way of knowing what is in those books aside from your assertion. It was noted in the original reply that the books seem to be outdated

Hehehe - I wonder what "theapy" the Durant's did.

You also have to look at God's creation in the animal kingdom where a full range of sexuality exists. Why would God create the "lower" primates to experience much if not all the sexuality that humans are capable of expressing?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say here.

God's creation belies some of the interpretation of God's word. The fault is man's.

Did you ever reconclie mutual masturbation as not cheating?

 

[Bastet]

Ok, I can sort of see where dan's coming from in one way...I have heard it said (not that I agree, mind), that the voluntary spilling of seed (for want of a better expression), is waste, and squandering God's gift of procreation. BUT, semen has a short shelf life anyway, and if a man doesn't masturbate, then it is ejected from the body via wet dreams (if the guy isn't getting any sex). Do you consider that a waste as well? If it's gonna come out one way or another, what's the harm in deriving some pleasure from it? Quite apart from that, the whole wastage thing isn't relevant to women. Women don't reduce their ability to conceive/procreate when they masturbate. If anything, they make their bodies more receptive to conception. It doesn't sound to me like it's "cheating God's plan" that you have a problem with, it's the deriving pleasure part.

 

[Pah]

I wonder, Bastet, If Dan would consider any other body fluids as God's gift. Except for the Catholic Church, as far as I know, sperm is no longer considered sacred.

The great sin of Onan was not that he "spilled his seed" but that he would not impregnate his sister-in-lw. So many "Victorian era horrors" are misinterpretations of the Bible. Can you imagine putting pants on piano legs to control the lust of males in that time? Prudish feelings about masturbation are just a remnant of that type of idiocy.

Dan really should tell us why mutual masturbation is not to be dione.

 

[dan]

We know for certain thet God's word contiained both incest and polygamy. Why would God "inspire" the writing of those stories. There is good scholarship that shows two homosexualt relationships in God's word and let's not forget the physical passion of the Songs. I beleive you're being selective in what you find in God's word.

Th eSongs are not inspired scripture. THe incest was not the will of God, but polygamy was. God has set boundaries within which we may excercise the powers He has given us, but you seek to widen these boundaries without His permission; and the existence of a story about it in no way justifies you're doing it or God condoning it.

Except for the Catholic Church, as far as I know, sperm is no longer considered sacred.

I don't remember saying that sperm was sacred. This is another example of forced inferences that y'all so freely lob around.

Dan really should tell us why mutual masturbation is not to be dione.

Sex is about giving, not about taking. Once it becomes a selfish act it breaks the bounds that God has set. Masturbation in any capacity is selfish. Sex is to please your partner, not yourself. Selfishness is the root of all evil, and masturbation perpetuates selfishness.

Do you consider that a waste as well?

No, not at all. I never said spilling seed was evil.

It doesn't sound to me like it's "cheating God's plan" that you have a problem with, it's the deriving pleasure part.

It violates the sanctity of the act and dulls our reverence of it.

It's an analogy - if ya don't get it, ya' don't get it.

You're comparing two entirely isolated pracxtices as if to make some kind of point, but there's absolutely no connection. You sound like a teenager.

There is no way of knowing what is in those books aside from your assertion.

Go to the library and look them up. It's not my problem if you can't get away from your computer long enough to do some independent research.

 

[Lightkeeper]

We know for certain thet God's word contiained both incest and polygamy. Why would God "inspire" the writing of those stories. There is good scholarship that shows two homosexualt relationships in God's word and let's not forget the physical passion of the Songs. I beleive you're being selective in what you find in God's word.

Th eSongs are not inspired scripture. THe incest was not the will of God, but polygamy was. God has set boundaries within which we may excercise the powers He has given us, but you seek to widen these boundaries without His permission; and the existence of a story about it in no way justifies you're doing it or God condoning it.

Except for the Catholic Church, as far as I know, sperm is no longer considered sacred.

I don't remember saying that sperm was sacred. This is another example of forced inferences that y'all so freely lob around.

Dan really should tell us why mutual masturbation is not to be dione.

Sex is about giving, not about taking. Once it becomes a selfish act it breaks the bounds that God has set. Masturbation in any capacity is selfish. Sex is to please your partner, not yourself. Selfishness is the root of all evil, and masturbation perpetuates selfishness.

Do you consider that a waste as well?

No, not at all. I never said spilling seed was evil.

It doesn't sound to me like it's "cheating God's plan" that you have a problem with, it's the deriving pleasure part.

It violates the sanctity of the act and dulls our reverence of it.

It's an analogy - if ya don't get it, ya' don't get it.

You're comparing two entirely isolated pracxtices as if to make some kind of point, but there's absolutely no connection. You sound like a teenager.

There is no way of knowing what is in those books aside from your assertion.

Go to the library and look them up. It's not my problem if you can't get away from your computer long enough to do some independent research.

***Mod Post***

No belittling, please.

 

[dan]

I apologize to the both of you.

 

[Pah]

We know for certain thet God's word contiained both incest and polygamy. Why would God "inspire" the writing of those stories. There is good scholarship that shows two homosexualt relationships in God's word and let's not forget the physical passion of the Songs. I beleive you're being selective in what you find in God's word.

Th eSongs are not inspired scripture. THe incest was not the will of God, but polygamy was. God has set boundaries within which we may excercise the powers He has given us, but you seek to widen these boundaries without His permission; and the existence of a story about it in no way justifies you're doing it or God condoning it.

I assume you meant Song of Songs not some internet thing. Are you saying that only parts of the Bible are insipred. That should be fun trying to determine what is and what is not the "Word of God"

I guess you haven't read the thread where the biblical rewards of incest are discussed

Except for the Catholic Church, as far as I know, sperm is no longer considered sacred.

I don't remember saying that sperm was sacred. This is another example of forced inferences that y'all so freely lob around.

From one of your precedeing posts - "It violates the sanctity of the act and dulls our reverence of it" If the act is sanctified then the product is also sanctified hence my use of "sacred"

Dan really should tell us why mutual masturbation is not to be dione.

Sex is about giving, not about taking. Once it becomes a selfish act it breaks the bounds that God has set. Masturbation in any capacity is selfish. Sex is to please your partner, not yourself. Selfishness is the root of all evil, and masturbation perpetuates selfishness.

You still haven't talked about the concurrence of giving and receiving.

Do you consider that a waste as well?

No, not at all. I never said spilling seed was evil.

It doesn't sound to me like it's "cheating God's plan" that you have a problem with, it's the deriving pleasure part.

It violates the sanctity of the act and dulls our reverence of it.

Mutual masturbation does not fall into that "restriction"

It's an analogy - if ya don't get it, ya' don't get it.

You're comparing two entirely isolated pracxtices as if to make some kind of point, but there's absolutely no connection. You sound like a teenager.

It's an analogy - if ya don't get it, ya' don't get it

There is no way of knowing what is in those books aside from your assertion.

Go to the library and look them up. It's not my problem if you can't get away from your computer long enough to do some independent research.

Dan , a list of books provides no information about the content . A library card cataloge has more value. You are making the assertion about the content and is your responsibility to provide a reason for it..


This has become a dead end and is becoming arguementative. If you would like to prove your point, I suggest you start a thread in a debate forum.

 

[Bastet]

It violates the sanctity of the act and dulls our reverence of it.

Might dull your reverence, but not mine, mate. And I'm not the Lone Ranger there...

 

[Ardhanariswar]

Sex is about giving, not about taking. Once it becomes a selfish act it breaks the bounds that God has set. Masturbation in any capacity is selfish. Sex is to please your partner, not yourself. Selfishness is the root of all evil, and masturbation perpetuates selfishness.

masturbation is exploration of your own body. its healthy. its not selfish... until you do it in excess that it takes time away from spending it with your children or friends. in excess you become obsessed, that is selfish. not regular, moderate masturbation.

anything done in excess is wrong. sex in excess is wrong. i can agree with you there.

but like many things, a person must explore. if not, how can a human truly appriciate God's gifts?

 

[Kat Lennon]

Would you mind if I asked you from what age you guys started mastubating?

 

[dan]

That should be fun trying to determine what is and what is not the "Word of God"

That's why God has always called prophets. Can you imagine a world in which there are no prophets? 5,000 different churches all fighting over who interprets the Bible correctly? Oh, wait, that is the world we live in. Good thing there are prophets, though. I guess the rest of y'all will just have to find out about that later.

 

[Ardhanariswar]

13, that was around the age i found out i was attracted to guys.


its sexual experimentation... the bible does not condemn that. but when its done in excess it takes time away from time you could be spending with friends and family.