Masturbation

[painted wolf]

David Jones- Only if you believe that god looks like us, I don't. My image of god is not anthropomorphic.

Dan- you learn how how to orgasm for one thing. As a female its not nessisary for conception to have an orgasm as it is for the male. So masturbation helps you experience that more easily. Many women may never have an orgasm otherwise.

Also as a couple you can learn what your partner likes in the way of stimulation by watching them masturbate. This can help both partners in thier sex life, encouraging them to more fully satisfy one another.

Again, anything taken too far is unhealthy, but to call masturbation sinful is I think taking it too far.

wa:do

 

[David Jones]

Only if you believe that god looks like us, I don't. My image of god is not anthropomorphic.

You stated that God, in your opinion, is anthropomorphic. Genesis 1:27 states that man was created in the image of God. How can we be created in the image of God if He is anthropomorphic?

I realize that this is way off the subject, but I am merely defending my point of view. I have provided here a list of scriptures. All of them suggest that God is as tangible as man.

Gen. 1:27 - God created man in his own image.
Gen. 5:1 - God created man, in the likeness of God made he him.
Gen. 9:6 - in the image of God made he man.
Gen. 18:33 - Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing.
Gen. 32:30 - I have seen God face to face.
Ex. 24:10 - they saw the God of Israel, there was under his feet.
Ex. 31:18 - (Deut. 9: 10) written with the finger of God.
Ex. 33:11 - Lord spake unto Moses face to face.
Ex. 33:23 - thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not.
Num. 12:8 - With him will I speak mouth to mouth.
Matt. 3:17 - a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son.
Matt. 4:4 - every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Matt. 17:5 - a voice out of the cloud.
Luke 24:39 - for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
John 14:9 - he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.
Acts 7:56 - the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Rom. 8:29 - predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son.
2 Cor. 4:4 - Christ, who is the image of God.
Philip. 2:6 - who, being in the form of God.
Philip. 3:21 - our vile body . . . fashioned like unto his glorious body.
Col. 1:15 - Who is the image of the invisible God.
Heb. 1:3 - the express image of his person.
James 3:9 - men which are made after the similitude of God.
1 Jn. 3:2 - when he shall appear, we shall be like him.
Rev. 22:4 - they shall see his face.

 

[Pah]

Has the thread stuck only to solitary masturbation?

What of mutual masturbation?

What of exhibitionist masturbation with your partner?

 

[painted wolf]

Ok, David I'M NOT CHRISTIAN!!!

I don't really care what the bible says god looks like... How do they know???
And the bible says so is not a good reason. I've read books that have dinosaurs running around tropical islands eating people.

anyway, this has nothing to do with telling me its naughty if I use what he gave me for the purpose it was ment for. (by the way the clitoris is the only organ that is devoted solely to providing pleasure.. so its not misuse to use it.)

wa:do

 

[Fra.Morelia]

All I can say is this: if the Armed Forces of America could not masturbate, we would have destroyed many more 3rd world nations than we have already. Every base we were stationed would have a swath of destruction around it the likes of which hae never been seen. Encourage masturbation, it has saved millions of civilian lives.

 

[Runt]

You stated that God, in your opinion, is anthropomorphic. Genesis 1:27 states that man was created in the image of God. How can we be created in the image of God if He is anthropomorphic?

I realize that this is way off the subject, but I am merely defending my point of view. I have provided here a list of scriptures. All of them suggest that God is as tangible as man.

I have here an alternate list of scriptures, all of which suggest that God is tangible as a man OR a woman, or both.

Genesis 1:27 "And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them". (People seem to enjoy ignoring this part of the scripture. Both men AND women were made in God's image, not just men. If women were also created in God’s image, does this not mean that, at least partially, God is female as well as male?)

Isaiah 66:13 “As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you”. (If God were male, shouldn't this go 'As a father comforts his child, so I will comfort you'? Or did fathers not comfort their children back then?)

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing”. (Again, weird simile. If God is male shouldn't he be compared to a protective male creature rather than a female?)

Isaiah 42:14 “For a long time I have kept silent, I have been quiet and held myself back. But now, like a woman in childbirth, I cry out, I gasp and pant.” (...)

Deuteronomy 32:18 "You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth." (God gives birth? Don't only females give birth?)

In the Torah (written, obviously, in Hebrew) God was referred to using a plural masculine pronoun with a female ending ('Elohim’). This was the pronoun used for the neuter gender, the gender you use when referring to a mixed group of males and females, but somehow was "mistranslated" (probably deliberately) into the purely masculine word "Lord" (probably to ensure the power of men and the subservience of women).

 

[Green Gaia]

(by the way the clitoris is the only organ that is devoted solely to providing pleasure.. so its not misuse to use it.)

wa:do

I like that. One could even say, not to use it, would be misuse.

 

[David Jones]

I have here an alternate list of scriptures, all of which suggest that God is tangible as a man OR a woman, or both.

I was going to comment on this but I decided not to because this forum has already gotton way off track. If you would like to hear my view on the gender of God, private-message me. Maybe this would be a good topic to open up for general discussion... I would be happy to moderate such a forum...

 

[Green Gaia]

I was going to comment on this but I decided not to because this forum has already gotton way off track. If you would like to hear my view on the gender of God, private-message me. Maybe this would be a good topic to open up for general discussion... I would be happy to moderate such a forum...

I don't think we need a new forum for it, just start a new topic, and I would suggest putting it here in the Debates or Discussion forum.

 

[dan]

Dan- you learn how how to orgasm for one thing. As a female its not nessisary for conception to have an orgasm as it is for the male. So masturbation helps you experience that more easily. Many women may never have an orgasm otherwise.

Also as a couple you can learn what your partner likes in the way of stimulation by watching them masturbate. This can help both partners in thier sex life, encouraging them to more fully satisfy one another.

An orgasm isn't an incredibly hard thing to experience. Marriage and sex are more about intimacy and love than just about erotic pleasure. I will derive much more intense enjoyment from sex when I am married than one who thinks of sex as mere erotic entertainment. If you wait until marriage to have sex and you refrain from masturbation the exploration is a mutual experience and thus much more enjoyable and authentic. Therapists agree with my assessment, whereas people only concerned with sex agree with yours. It's called fragmentation and it harms relationships. That's one of the reasons relationships and marriages are so weak these days.

 

[Pah]

Dan:
"An orgasm isn't an incredibly hard thing to experience."

Speaking as a man.

All too often, the man will satisfy his lust and forget the woman.

I don't think you've answered my questions about mutual masturbation.

 

[Green Gaia]

An orgasm isn't an incredibly hard thing to experience.

Says the man.

Marriage and sex are more about intimacy and love than just about erotic pleasure.

Absolutely. Why can't masturbation be a part of that intimacy?

I will derive much more intense enjoyment from sex when I am married than one who thinks of sex as mere erotic entertainment.

Are you sure about that? Have you ever been married? lol

If you wait until marriage to have sex and you refrain from masturbation the exploration is a mutual experience and thus much more enjoyable and authentic.

I don't buy that. But if that's what you believe then that's your opinion.

Therapists agree with my assessment, whereas people only concerned with sex agree with yours.

Do you have unbiased proof to back up this statement?

It's called fragmentation and it harms relationships.

I have to disagree. Masturbation can be a wonderful part of a relationship.

That's one of the reasons relationships and marriages are so weak these days.

So masturbation is a new thing and is leading to weak relationships and marriages? Funny, I thought it was the homosexuals destorying everyone's marriage.... (sorry OT, but I couldn't help myself lol).

 

[Green Gaia]

I don't think you've answered my questions about mutual masturbation.

I'm waiting for that as well.....

 

[Pah]

Didn't we give up these Victorian attitudes about masturbation when we started eating Corn Flakes for the flavor?

 

[Fra.Morelia]

Feh... Most of us gave up a great many things, but, well.... some people would prefer to dwell in the past than in the present. I have heard only good things from therapists on masturbation. As for 'genuine exploration'... without a touch of self exploration that is going to be more of a fumbling grope fest thanexploration. I know how to explore.I havehad practise. You don't go to a football game without knowing ever having a scrimmage or two. Think of it as excersise.

 

[Bastet]

An orgasm isn't an incredibly hard thing to experience.

Really? Have a vagina and clitoris, do you? Know the complete ins and outs of female orgasm?? Your future wife is gonna love you then...especially if she's never masturbated and has no idea of her own anatomy. :roll:

Marriage and sex are more about intimacy and love than just about erotic pleasure.

I agree.

I will derive much more intense enjoyment from sex when I am married than one who thinks of sex as mere erotic entertainment.

'Intimacy and love', and 'erotic pleasure', are not mutually exclusive. If they are, then you're not doing it right. Besides, you're drawing the false conclusion that people who masturbate, only think of sex as 'erotic entertainment', and care nothing for intimacy and love. And that masturbation automatically leads to pre-marital sex. Bollocks. :roll:

If you wait until marriage to have sex and you refrain from masturbation the exploration is a mutual experience and thus much more enjoyable and authentic.

And this is based on....? Not your experience, obviously, since you're not married. The fumbling gropings of two virgins in the dark (figuratively speaking), leaves a lot to be desired...regardless of whether they're married or not. You cannot expect someone to give you pleasure (and an orgasm), if you don't know how to give yourself pleasure (and an orgasm), especially if you're a woman. Knowing one's own body intimately is the only way someone can fully expect to teach another how to give them pleasure. Even if the person you're having sex with, is experienced in the bedroom (since not everyone is aroused by the same things, or in the same ways). Admittedly, it's pretty easy to work out how to turn a guy on and make him orgasm. :lol: But the reverse is true for women. And I am speaking from experience.
If you're that dead against masturbation, then I could suggest a good website to give you pointers...you really shouldn't go into the bedroom totally blind. Loving your virgin bride is not a guarantee of great sex. Sure, you'll get better with practise, but, really - why put you and her through that awkwardness and frustration to begin with? You can have just as loving and intimate a relationship with great sex right from the start, as you can with sex that leaves you high and dry...give the girl an orgasm, and she'll love you forever lol.

Therapists agree with my assessment, whereas people only concerned with sex agree with yours. It's called fragmentation and it harms relationships. That's one of the reasons relationships and marriages are so weak these days.

I too, would like to know who these therapists are (pref. with links where I can read their words for myself), and information on this so-called "fragmentation". The only information I've been able to find concerning fragmentation, concerns computers, animal habitats, and plant reproduction. :lol:


Re: mutual masturbation (which seems to have been largely ignored in this thread)...it can be incredibly erotic (if you can get over any shyness you may have), and intimate, to masturbate while your partner watches/masturbates themself. Don't knock it till you try it! :lol:

 

[Bastet]

Didn't we give up these Victorian attitudes about masturbation when we started eating Corn Flakes for the flavor?

Ever heard of the Victorian periodical publication called 'The Pearl'? The Victorians were no shrinking violets when it came to sex and pleasure! mg: As long as it was behind closed doors, it was a free for all. :lol:

 

[dan]

Besides, you're drawing the false conclusion that people who masturbate, only think of sex as 'erotic entertainment', and care nothing for intimacy and love.

Then why not just make intimate love to your wife? Why masturbate. Masturbation is nothing but an imitation high that you can get whenever the feeling hits you. Masturbation cheapens sex.

Really? Have a vagina and clitoris, do you? Know the complete ins and outs of female orgasm?? Your future wife is gonna love you then...especially if she's never masturbated and has no idea of her own anatomy.

That's what makes the first months and years of marriage so special. You're first sexual experiences are together. You get to explore your sexuality and your bodies together. You get to find out what you like together. You get to learn together. That's real intimacy, and that journey taken together will strengthen the physical and emotional bonds of a husband and wife better than anything else on this earth. I don't need my wife to tell me exactly what to do so she can climax our very first time making love; I want us to find out together. That makes the sexual act ours, not hers or mine. Her orgasm isn't something that she invites me to become a guest of, it is something we discover together.

By the way, I am very well acquainted with both male and female sexuality. I make it a point to know as much as I can about as many subjects as I can.

why put you and her through that awkwardness and frustration to begin with?

It's not awkward if you have reached a level of non-sexual intimacy that is appropriate to move on to the next level of marriage. I am not speaking from personal experience, but I have many friends that are married and speak with nostalgia and fondness of the quest they took together to discover their mutual sexuality. You have not taken that course, so you cannot tell me how it will be. I have studied both sides of the coin. I have seen it from both sides of the fence, and I have made my conclusion based on unbiased facts.

I too, would like to know who these therapists are (pref. with links where I can read their words for myself), and information on this so-called "fragmentation".

Victor L. Brown, Jr., Human Intimacy, Parliament Publishers

Will and Ariel Durant, The Story of Civilization, Simon and Schuster

John Altrocchi, Abnormal Behavior, Harcourt-Brace-Jovanovich, Inc.

Allen Martin, Intimacy: Sensitivity, Sex, and the Art of Love, Cowles Book Company, Inc.

Allen E. Bergin, Psychotherapy: Theory, Research and Practice 6, (1969)

G. C. Davidson, Journal of Abnormal Psychology, (1968)

Helen Singer Kaplan, Disorder of Sexual Desire, Brunner/Mazel

A. Pietropinto and J. Simenauer, Beyond the Male Myth, New York Times Book Company

Charlotte Dickinson Moore, Families Today, (1979)

That's just a few. I'll get more later. You'll notice they're not websites; I prefer to read real books.

 

[Bastet]

Then why not just make intimate love to your wife? Why masturbate. Masturbation is nothing but an imitation high that you can get whenever the feeling hits you. Masturbation cheapens sex.

You're completely ignoring the subject of mutual masturbation, brought up in this thread. Making love does not always require penetration. Masturbation doesn't cheapen sex; it enhances it. You seem to think that one needs to be alone to masturbate. Not so. If someone in a relationship was masturbating solo, due to lack of satisfaction from, or desire for their partner, then, yes, I can see how you'd think it would be detrimental to the relationship. But the real problem there would be the lack of communication between the partners, not the masturbation itself. That is merely a symptom.
And what about single people? I still don't see what is wrong with a single person masturbating. Despite what you seem to think, masturbation doesn't lead to promiscuity, it doesn't give you hairy palms, and you won't go blind. :roll:

That's what makes the first months and years of marriage so special. You're first sexual experiences are together. You get to explore your sexuality and your bodies together. You get to find out what you like together. You get to learn together. That's real intimacy, and that journey taken together will strengthen the physical and emotional bonds of a husband and wife better than anything else on this earth. I don't need my wife to tell me exactly what to do so she can climax our very first time making love; I want us to find out together. That makes the sexual act ours, not hers or mine. Her orgasm isn't something that she invites me to become a guest of, it is something we discover together.

Or not, as the case may be...I guess you'll find out eventually. Best of luck with that. I hope she's not so repressed (or uncomfortable expressing her desires vocally), that it takes you years to make that discovery.

By the way, I am very well acquainted with both male and female sexuality. I make it a point to know as much as I can about as many subjects as I can.

You can be as book learned as you like, but when it comes to sexuality, until you've experienced something 'hands on', you have no idea. By all means, make your decisions, but don't be surprised if reality doesn't meet your expectations.

It's not awkward if you have reached a level of non-sexual intimacy that is appropriate to move on to the next level of marriage. I am not speaking from personal experience, but I have many friends that are married and speak with nostalgia and fondness of the quest they took together to discover their mutual sexuality. You have not taken that course, so you cannot tell me how it will be.

That's a rather big call, considering how very little you know about me. How do you know I have not "taken that course", as you put it? Because I knew my own body before knew anyone elses, I therefore haven't "discovered mutual sexuality" with my partner? Sex isn't one sided, no matter how well I know my body. It merely makes things more enjoyable to have that prior knowledge. And you have no idea the level of non-sexual intimacy I have with my partner, so don't presume to do so.

I have studied both sides of the coin. I have seen it from both sides of the fence, and I have made my conclusion based on unbiased facts.

Unbiased facts? I doubt it. :lol: When you've made your conclusion based on personal experience, come back and talk to me.

Victor L. Brown, Jr., Human Intimacy, Parliament Publishers

Will and Ariel Durant, The Story of Civilization, Simon and Schuster

John Altrocchi, Abnormal Behavior, Harcourt-Brace-Jovanovich, Inc.

Allen Martin, Intimacy: Sensitivity, Sex, and the Art of Love, Cowles Book Company, Inc.

Allen E. Bergin, Psychotherapy: Theory, Research and Practice 6, (1969)

G. C. Davidson, Journal of Abnormal Psychology, (1968)

Helen Singer Kaplan, Disorder of Sexual Desire, Brunner/Mazel

A. Pietropinto and J. Simenauer, Beyond the Male Myth, New York Times Book Company

Charlotte Dickinson Moore, Families Today, (1979)

That's just a few. I'll get more later. You'll notice they're not websites; I prefer to read real books.

That's fine, I am a voracious reader. Both online, and at the library. I am wondering at this point, however, if any of those sources were written after 1979. Thoughts have changed on a lot of things since then...discoveries made, old ideas found to be erroneous and discarded.

 

[dan]

Best of luck with that. I hope she's not so repressed (or uncomfortable expressing her desires vocally), that it takes you years to make that discovery.

That's a common fear for millions who don't have the will power to wait, but the dozens of people that I have spoken with on the subject agree that it (that fear) is totally unfounded. I have yet to meet a person who took that path and regretted it. You're just making assumptions based on information that you get from already sexually active people. It's entirely different for people who don't think like you.

when it comes to sexuality, until you've experienced something 'hands on', you have no idea.

So what you're saying is that these judgments you're passing are only conjecture and assumptions; in that you've never experienced what I speak of. I have talked to numerous people from both sides of the fence, and I am 100% confident in my conclusion.

It merely makes things more enjoyable to have that prior knowledge.

You have nothing to compare it to, so how can you make a qualitative judgment? You've only experienced one side of the situation; and you dismiss the other side without sincere research. You can say it's enjoyable, but not more enjoyable.