Man to Man... or Woman

[stvdv]

In your view, is it okay for a man to want to be a woman, and take measures to reach that goal, such as by taking drugs to change his facial and body features etc.?

I think it is okay to "mind our own business". And "the business of others" is not my business, is it your business?
Telling others that their choices in life, with which they do not harm others, is wrong, this I call discrimination.

I think discrimination is never a good thing

Unless you use your discrimination to decide not to discriminate others

 

[Rival]

by crappy treatment from others.

Not to mention things like overall depression, anxiety, personality disorders and so on, that a non-trans person can have and suicide over.

 

[nPeace]

This isn't just about surface feelings or emotions. It's a deep-seated permanent mental perception of the self that goes beyond emotions. If you could just therapy gender dysmorphia away we'd be doing that.

Who said anything about surface? are you saying these disorders are not treatable on a psychological level?
Then it would help for you to provide the data that shows this.

Body dysmorphic disorder (BDD), occasionally still called dysmorphophobia, is a mental disorder characterized by the obsessive idea that some aspect of one's own body part or appearance is severely flawed and therefore warrants exceptional measures to hide or fix it.

https://www.youtube.com/results?sea...ic+Disorder:+Definition,+Causes+and+Treatment

When we are sick, we seek help, whether it be physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual. The advice we take, can result in us taking various courses, but the one that is popular, or accepted, is not necessarily correct because it is a popularized view.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Who said anything about surface? are you saying these disorders are not treatable on a psychological level?
Then it would help for you to provide the data that shows this.

Body dysmorphic disorder (BDD), occasionally still called dysmorphophobia, is a mental disorder characterized by the obsessive idea that some aspect of one's own body part or appearance is severely flawed and therefore warrants exceptional measures to hide or fix it.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Body+Dysmorphic+Disorder:+Definition,+Causes+and+Treatment

When we are sick, we seek help, whether it be physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual. The advice we take, can result in us taking various courses, but the one that is popular, or accepted, is not necessarily correct because it is a popularized view.

Gender dysphoria is not bidy dysmorphic. Body dysmorphic disorders will very typically worsen with interventions and surgeries. With gender dysphoria, it is the opposite and the condition aleviates with treatment (transitioning) and daily functioning improves.
Please try to understand these things before so lightly throwing out medical diagnoses.

 

[Rival]

Who said anything about surface? are you saying these disorders are not treatable on a psychological level?
Then it would help for you to provide the data that shows this.

Body dysmorphic disorder (BDD), occasionally still called dysmorphophobia, is a mental disorder characterized by the obsessive idea that some aspect of one's own body part or appearance is severely flawed and therefore warrants exceptional measures to hide or fix it.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Body+Dysmorphic+Disorder:+Definition,+Causes+and+Treatment

When we are sick, we seek help, whether it be physical, mental, emotional, or spiritual. The advice we take, can result in us taking various courses, but the one that is popular, or accepted, is not necessarily correct because it is a popularized view.

You don't need to tell me things I already know, and please use correct terms.

I want to know how you'd treat it, given that regular therapy doesn't work. I hope you realise that you can't 'cure' many mental disorders through therapy alone, but lifestyle changes need to be made; and some, such as personality disorders, are lifelong and obviously cannot be made to go away but only dealt with to make them manageable. You can't make GD go away completely, but you can mitigate it amazingly with transitioning. What is your alternative?

 

[nPeace]

I think it is okay to "mind our own business". And "the business of others" is not my business, is it your business?
Telling others that their choices in life, with which they do not harm others, is wrong, this I call discrimination.

I think discrimination is never a good thing

Unless you use your discrimination to decide not to discriminate others

You think it is discriminating to say something different to what is popular, or accepted, and insisted on acceptance by all. Okay. Thanks for sharing.

PS
Sorry if I misunderstood what you are saying.
Please correct me, where I was wrong. Thank you.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I agree we all have free choice. The question is, is it right... is it good? Is it okay to hunt and kill all the elephants for their tusks, even if we have the freedom and desire to do so?
Apparently the law thinks... Not.

I find all killing to be wrong

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I agree we all have free choice. The question is, is it right... is it good? Is it okay to hunt and kill all the elephants for their tusks, even if we have the freedom and desire to do so?
Apparently the law thinks... Not.

Ideally the law would have better reasons for restricting activity than just 'other people/other people's religions don't approve.' We restrict poaching because of the easily determinable harm it has on wild populations. What easily determinable harm do transgender people pose?

 

[Rival]

What easily determinable harm do transgender people pose?

Mostly the fragile egos of generally straight cis people and largely men who feel 'gay' having relations with transwomen they obviously fancy. I'm pritty sure this is most of it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Gender dysphoria is not bidy dysmorphic. Body dysmorphic disorders will very typically worsen with interventions and surgeries. With gender dysphoria, it is the opposite and the condition aleviates with treatment (transitioning) and daily functioning improves.
Please try to understand these things before so lightly throwing out medical diagnoses.

What's the difference between the two disorders aside from the treatments and lifestyle changes?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Mostly the fragile egos of generally straight cis people and mostly men who feel 'gay' having relations with transwomen they obviously fancy. I'm pritty sure this is most of it.

As well as pearl clutching cis women who feel like transwomen are all secret predators waiting to do something to them. *Sighs*

 

[nPeace]

Biblically baseshelp was toxic for me and left me suicidal. Changing into me, that is transitioning from male to female, its the best thing I've done for myself, and I'm not suicidal or yearning and longing for death amymore, my life has direction and goals, has been improving,and basically did the opposite of what you suggest. Amd I really, very much doubt you have the background to be properly discussing "training yohr mind." It makes me think youre probably more into armchair pop "psychology" rather than the actual study of human cognition.

What do you think caused you to feel the Bible was toxic for you, and made you suicidal?
Perhaps the "Biblically based help" was not really Bible based at all. However, you would have to share that, as I can't tell from just looking at you.
Would you like to share.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What's the difference between the two disorders aside from the treatments and lifestyle changes?

Gender dysphoria deals directly with a conflict between ones genetic sex and ones identified sex. Various methods of treatment have been tried (including electroshock therapy), but it's been found that letting someone with gender dysphoria transition into their identified sex, as much as needed for their comfort (some just crossdress, some only go on hormones, the goal of treatment is making someone comfortable enough in their own skin). Other means have failed to dangerous and disastrous ends.
Body dysmorphic disorder is when a person is obsessed about percieved flaws of their body (sort of how those with an eating disorder may believe they are overweight). They do typically seek treatment in the form of plastic surgery. But its doesn't fix or address the issue, and they don't feel better about themselves. They get another surgery instead. And another. And another. Dozens, even hundreds later, they are worse off than they were before their first surgery.

 

[stvdv]

You think it is discriminating to say something different to what is popular, or accepted, and insisted on acceptance by all. Okay. Thanks for sharing.

PS
Sorry if I misunderstood what you are saying.
Please correct me, where I was wrong. Thank you.

Yes you misunderstood. Of course it is okay to say something different to what is popular....etc.

In your view, is it okay for a man to want to be a woman, and take measures to reach that goal, such as by taking drugs to change his facial and body features etc.?

I think a better question would be:
"Does it feel okay for you, being a man, to want to be a woman"

No need to claim to know what is best for others (esp. in such a case as this).
First make sure you make ZERO mistakes. Why waste precious time, changing others, while not being perfect yet?
And when not yet perfect, chances are big that judgment will be wrong

 

[nPeace]

The principle is clearly carried over to the NT:
1Co 6:9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,"

Seems the principle is tied up to what is mentioned in Romans 1:26, 27 ...something about nature, or what is natural, hence in line with the creation.

 

[epronovost]

That's purely a subjective matter and clearly not true if the phenotype includes such things as menstruation etc.

Not all women menstruate either. There are pre-menstrual girls, sterile women, high level athletes, anorexic women, post menoposal women, etc. No, transwomen don't have every single possible female phenotypes, but they do have a lot of them and pretty much no male phenotypes. In fact, a lot of cisgender women don't express all the typical feminine phenotype either, but remain women nonetheless. It's not the possession of all feminie phenotypes that makes a person a woman, but their concurrence in a single person; the most important for sex assignment being genital anathomy.

Yet this is all part of the fraud, isn't it? You can't argue that if fraud is so successful it is undetecable it is not longer fraud.

To my sense, it would be a fraud to class such people as men. They clearly have pretty much no male phenotype. You can scarcely call fraud that which is presented to you for this is a permanent state not an artidice. If you were to fall in love with a transwoman, you would fall in love, amongst other thing, with the body you see and that body will remains as such until age takes its toll. It's a case of "what you see is what you get". The only thing you couldn't have that you might assume is a fertile sexual partner and even then, while very common, there is no guaranty for that.

That God (the Old testament) has spoken on the point is not in any doubt.

That's a completely different argument. You can say that gender-reassignment surgery is wrong, but you cannot reasonnably argue that it's ineffective. It does produce impressive result and can substantially change the sexual phenotypes of a person. That's just obvious. That your religion forbids it for some reason (or none really it's not like there are detailed reasonning for every religious rules), is a completely different argument. Don't "invent" poor reasonning for a religious rule, stick to the reasonning employed by your deity or simply call unto His or Her authority.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What do you think caused you to feel the Bible was toxic for you, and made you suicidal?
Perhaps the "Biblically based help" was not really Bible based at all. However, you would have to share that, as I can't tell from just looking at you.
Would you like to share.

Gays are to be killed. Men aren't supposed to wear things that pertain to a woman. Jesus often warns of eternal darkness and hellfire. There is a lot of punishment in the Bible if you slip up. And it's easy to do. Especially according to Paul. The conflict I felt between my identity as female and identity as Christian at the time would be an offense to god if I acted on my attractions to men, and possibly doing the same thing if I didn't live as a male, and a straight male at that. I often had nightmares of being sentenced to Hell, and I yearned and prayed for death to be released from my miserable life.

 

[stvdv]

I find all killing to be wrong

Question: Suppose you have a worm inside, that special harmful big one called tapeworm. Your doctor advises you to take albendazol to "Kill" it.
What do you do?

If you don't take the pill, fine.

Next scenario. The doctor, who is all knowing, tells you "you will die, unless you take this pill to kill this bug". You still don't take the pill?

Did you know that we have an immunesystem, and that it's goal is to KILL quite a bit?
Would you ask your doctor for this pill, to shut down your immunesystem, because you "find all killing to be wrong"?

I remember you became vegetarian, so like me, you have killed lots of animals just for your meat appetite. Was this wrong?
As a vegetarian, are you aware that most cheese contain rennet (from the stomach of a calf)?

When a soldier, who defends his country, as his Dharma, do you call this wrong?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

What's the difference between the two disorders aside from the treatments and lifestyle changes?

In addition to what's being posted Gender Dysphoria and Body Dysmorphia are not mutually exclusive. You can have both. Gender dysphoria is simply being uncomfortable with how your body matches your gender identity. Body dysmorphia is a compulsory obsession with perceived flaws in how your body looks. The former can lead to anxiety and depression, the latter is compared to a type of obsessive compulsive disorder which has cognitive behavioral therapy centered on stopping obsessive thoughts. A person who is transgender might have discomfort about having breasts because it doesn't match their male gender, but they might also be obsessively worrying about their chest not looking right, even after transitioning surgery, because BD is a disordered thinking pattern that needs therapy.

Not every or all people with GD will have BD, but some do.

 

[epronovost]

Mostly the fragile egos of generally straight cis people and largely men who feel 'gay' having relations with transwomen they obviously fancy. I'm pritty sure this is most of it.

I'm always surprised that the one time you are supposed to take cues from your penis, some men decide to ignore it completely. The biggest irony is that the same men often take cues from their penis in situations where it's definitely uncalled for.