Man to Man... or Woman

[Rival]

What verse is that?

1Co 6:9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,"

What does 'effeminate' mean here? Its Greek term is arsenokoitai, unless I am mistaken, and this word is debated.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Disabling enought for what? I never said people should be allowed to kill themselves. It was someone else said people should be able to do what they want when they are psychologically distressed.

Disabling to meet this arbitrary criteria that is based in such depths of ignorance it doesn't even (and obviously so) consider the DSM-5 requires a level of distress and impairment to meet diagnostic criteria for most of the diagnosis covered in it.

 

[eik]

I was suicidal before accepting myself and before transitioning. I nearly didnt survive being born and I used to wish I would have died then. Bit thats now all in the past. Probably because suicidal thoughts and ideations arent a diagnosis but a symptom, and gender dysphoria is a diagnosis that is treatable (you cant really treat suicide, you have to addrrss the underlying issues).

I said mens clothes, not unisex or womens clothes. As I said, its just not possible for me to pass as male 100% of the time even in mens clothing.

I am not going to be drawn into debate with someone who clearly doesn't accept the Old testament as authoritative. I'm entitled to my opinions and my religion and you are entitled to yours. Let's leave it there.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I said that's my opinion. I am entitled to it. Thank you. And that was the opinion of the writer of the gospels on many illnesses too.

It's my opinion Paul was schizophrenic, the Apostles were duped, and Jesus was either a tribal shaman or schizophrenic himself.

It's rather silly comparing employment in an iron age society 3500 years ago with modern legal systems. I will not be drawn.

Then why insist we use what passed as religious morality in society 3500 years ago?

 

[eik]

Disabling to meet this arbitrary criteria that is based in such depths of ignorance it doesn't even (and obviously so) consider the DSM-5 requires a level of distress and impairment to meet diagnostic criteria for most of the diagnosis covered in it.

I believe this topic concerned the religious perspective. Clearly we don't have the same religion. Let's leave it there.

 

[eik]

It's my opinion Paul was schizophrenic, the Apostles were duped, and Jesus was either a tribal shaman or schizophrenic himself.

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Then why insist we use what passed as religious morality in society 3500 years ago?

We don't, clearly. And to impose the OT on the world wasn't the ambition of Christ for he said the kingdom of God is of another place.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I am not going to be drawn into debate with someone who clearly doesn't accept the Old testament as authoritative. I'm entitled to my opinions and my religion and you are entitled to yours. Let's leave it there.

Why? You'll only debate with those who have some common ground? Thats not debate, thats an echo chamber discussion.

 

[Rival]

Why? You'll only debate with those who have some common ground? Thats not debate, thats an echo chamber discussion.

It's authoritative to me

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What scientific data says it's a she?

Don't call people "it." Not cool.

Gender identity, gender expression, sexual orientation, and physical sex are all separate things (and "physical sex" itself is a catch-all term for several separate things itself). If you're not familiar with how these concepts differ and you're willing to learn, I suggest this short guide:

https://www.genderbread.org/wp-cont...king-through-the-Binary-by-Sam-Killermann.pdf

Why do the doctors declare a "she" to be a he?

You're going to have to unpack a few things in this question: which doctors are you talking about? What do you mean when you say "declare a 'she' to be a he?"

You think it's okay. Okay.
I understand your views about morality, So, okay.

I don't get the sense that you understand my views, actually.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.


We don't, clearly. And to impose the OT on the world wasn't the ambition of Christ for he said the kingdom of God is of another place.

Then whats the point of his 1000 year reign on Earth if the Law is not meant for the world?

 

[eik]

1Co 6:9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,"

What does 'effeminate' mean here? Its Greek term is arsenokoitai, unless I am mistaken, and this word is debated.

From https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj3h.pdf I read:

"It seems quite likely that Paul himself coined a new term which he virtually derived from the LXX of Lev 20:13. No other current explanation is as practical as this. If this be true, there are significant consequences, assuming that Paul wrote prescriptively. Obviously he viewed the moral law (derived from Leviticus 18`20; Exodus 20) as authoritative for his Christian audience."
​

I am happy with this explanation. Worth reading the article.

 

[Rival]

From https://www.tms.edu/m/tmsj3h.pdf I read:

"It seems quite likely that Paul himself coined a new term which he virtually derived from the LXX of Lev 20:13. No other current explanation is as practical as this. If this be true, there are significant consequences, assuming that Paul wrote prescriptively. Obviously he viewed the moral law (derived from Leviticus 18`20; Exodus 20) as authoritative for his Christian audience."
​

I am happy with this explanation. Worth reading the article.

But what are the practical implications? I mean say in your ideal world all Christian values were in place, what would be defined as an 'effeminate' and why?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's authoritative to me

Well, yeah.
But obviously you don't demand people accept it or you won't debate them. Amd you "married" someone who doesn't. So, .

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's because many clothes are unisex these days. The passage was only referring to attire that is specifically worn by one sex.

Are you talking about Deut 22:5?

A woman must not wear men’s clothing, nor should a man dress up in women’s clothing, for anyone who does this is offensive to the Lord your God.

Assuming so, then if you're taking this to be a prohibition on transgender people expressing their gender identity, then you're interpreting the passage through a boatload of assumptions that are not in the Bible.

You will not find anywhere in the Bible that say that a trans man is a woman, not a man, or that a trans woman is a man, not a woman. That interpretation entirely comes from your own prejudices.

... and if you recognize that a trans woman really is a woman and a trans man really is a man, then you would be forced to recognize that this passage prohibits forcing trans people to live as if they're cis.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I believe this topic concerned the religious perspective. Clearly we don't have the same religion. Let's leave it there.

No. Religious or not, it's a topic very important to me, and it does directly concern me.
I will not honor your request.

 

[syo]

In your view, is it okay for a man to want to be a woman

Yup. But only if he is emotionally stable.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Demonic influence. cf. Saul in the OT.

Do you believe chronic depression is demonic influence?

All types of psychological distress, are they not? Why are you accomodating one type, whilst rejecting another. You are using differing weights and measure for essentially the same illness. You say people shouldn't be allowed to commit suicide, but they should be allowed to do mind boggling alterations to their body. I can't see why they should be treated differently, given a common basis in psychological distress?

I never said people shouldn't be allowed to commit suicide. I said how is taking one's own life in the same boat as changing one's body?

One has to do with death of the body and the other alteration of it.

We're not treating any one alteration different than another. Just the topic of this thread is specific to people changing their bodies to relieve distress of how they look and feel relating to their genitals, breasts, tone of voice, and cultural cosmetics.

I can't think of another reason why someone would alter their body dramatically outside of a physical and/or mental medical condition. It's not like getting a tatoo or anything like that.

What criteria are you basing why you're against people changing their bodies on, since gender dysphoria etc are not in scripture?

 

[stvdv]

In your view, is it okay for a man to want to be a woman, and take measures to reach that goal, such as by taking drugs to change his facial and body features etc.?

I believe that we are "incarnations of Divine Atma". That is who we really are.
So, all the other things that people think "I am" is just body identification.

Some people want to become body builder
Other people want to be a pole dancer
And some want to be women

IF you allow body builders to change their body
THEN I think it is discrimination to object man wanting to be a woman
(Better use our discrimination to decide to stop this violent discrimination)

 

[stvdv]

In your view, is it okay for a man to want to be a woman, and take measures to reach that goal, such as by taking drugs to change his facial and body features etc.?

When I was young my parents were not allowed to touch my hair
So, I looked like a girl, with long curly hair

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What criteria are you basing why you're against people changing their bodies on, since gender dysphoria etc are not in scripture?

I suspect one will be shoddy looks into suicide rates pf trans people, studies that fail to acknowlesge suicide rates tend to be significantly higher pre-transitioning and, most importantly, fail to acknowledge the pi3st transition suicide rate, thiugh still high, is largely driven by crappy treatment from others.