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Loved ones in hell - take 2.

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Why does God need an "if"?
Because you have to want to be led. God is not going to lead anyone who is ‘unwilling’ to be led.
That is why there are still atheists. :rolleyes:
Only if God is bound by the same logic that we mere mortals have to deal with. And you've already said he is not.

Haven't seen another argument from you. Which argument are you using that does not boil down to, "But he can't, because it's logically impossible"?
I am giving up on this, because apparently you cannot understand why God making you do something interferes with your free will and thus violates your free will to choose NOT to do something.
It is no different than if a man forced a woman to have sex against her will (raped her); that would violate her free will to choose NOT to be raped. Apparently you think there is some special rule that applies to God just because God is all-powerful and all-knowing, but the same principle applies to God to human interactions as applies to human to human interactions.
Who's obsessed? I'm just pointing out the inconsistencies in your claims.
There is nothing inconsistent at all. I have been saying the same things all along, over and over and over.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Because you have to want to be led. God is not going to lead anyone who is ‘unwilling’ to be led.
That is why there are still atheists. :rolleyes:

Oh, rubbish. Setting aside the fact that God hardened Pharaoh's heart in the Bible without any problem (but you don't count that because... reasons), God was appearing to people in burning bushes, sending angels, stopping the movement of the sun and doing all sorts of other amazing things to show off his presence to people in the Bible. Nothing stopping him from doing that again, and it would certainly convince many of the atheists alive today that they'd gotten it wrong.

I am giving up on this, because apparently you cannot understand why God making you do something interferes with your free will and thus violates your free will to choose NOT to do something.
It is no different than if a man forced a woman to have sex against her will (raped her); that would violate her free will to choose NOT to be raped. Apparently you think there is some special rule that applies to God just because God is all-powerful and all-knowing, but the same principle applies to God to human interactions as applies to human to human interactions.

No, apparently you cannot understand that this argument only applies if God is limited by Human logic. You have already claimed he is NOT bound by Human logic.

There is nothing inconsistent at all. I have been saying the same things all along, over and over and over.

The inconsistency is that you claimed God is not bound by Human logic, and then you have been saying that God can't do certain things because Human logic forbids them.

I agree. Human logic DOES forbid them. But God isn't bound by Human logic by your own claim! So that limitation doesn't apply to God!
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Oh, rubbish. Setting aside the fact that God hardened Pharaoh's heart in the Bible without any problem (but you don't count that because... reasons), God was appearing to people in burning bushes, sending angels, stopping the movement of the sun and doing all sorts of other amazing things to show off his presence to people in the Bible. Nothing stopping him from doing that again, and it would certainly convince many of the atheists alive today that they'd gotten it wrong.
FYI, I was never a Christian so I do not believe everything God allegedly did in the Bible. :rolleyes: In fact, I do not believe much of it.

There is nothing stopping God except God, and that is enough since an all-powerful God only does what He chooses to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

God does not want to convince atheists and that is one reason why God does not comply with their wishes for proof. God wants everyone to look at His Messengers for proof.
No, apparently you cannot understand that this argument only applies if God is limited by Human logic. You have already claimed he is NOT bound by Human logic.
No, it applies, period.
The inconsistency is that you claimed God is not bound by Human logic, and then you have been saying that God can't do certain things because Human logic forbids them.
No, I am not saying that and if I ever said it I am now retracting it.
I agree. Human logic DOES forbid them. But God isn't bound by Human logic by your own claim! So that limitation doesn't apply to God!
Logic does not matter. It is not possible, period.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
So you have what are essentially opinions.
An opinion is a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence. ... Unlike an opinion, a belief is a conviction based on cultural or personal faith, morality, or values.
Distinguishing Fact, Opinion, Belief, and Prejudice
Then we must ask how you have interpreted the facts correctly. Because the people who have different interpretations are just as convinced as you that they have the correct interpretation.
You are correct, one of us has to be wrong if we have different interpretations of the same historical events. The question is who is wrong. That might require digging deeper.
But how does God know whether something is right or wrong? By what yardstick does he measure the rightness or wrongness?
God needs no yardsticks because God knows everything by virtue of being God. After all, one of God’s attributes is all-knowing.
So if I clone a small animal, do I have the right to torture it? After all, I am the creator of that animal.

You do not have the right but you can choose to if you are evil. God cannot be evil because benevolence is one of God’s attributes, so God will never torture anyone.
Your argument also suggests God lacks empathy.
Why is that, because God is not accountable to humans? Is a painter lacking empathy for his painting because he is not accountable to it? But if the painter values the painting that he created it he will care for it and protect it from being damaged after he has finished painting it. That is what God does, cares for us and protects us by sending Messengers.
Seems to me that your "adequate research" is nothing more than asking yourself if it fits in with what you've already decided is true.
How would that be possible if I did not decide it was true before I looked at the evidence? Of course I looked at the evidence before I decided the Baha’i Faith was true.
Cherry picking, suppressing evidence, or the fallacy of incomplete evidence is the act of pointing to individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position while ignoring a significant portion of related and similar cases or data that may contradict that position. Cherry picking may be committed intentionally or unintentionally. This fallacy is a major problem in public debate.[1]

Cherry picking - Wikipedia
Why do you think I only looked at certain pieces of evidence?
And if you say, "I have concluded that Baha'i is correct. This evidence would mean that Baha'i is incorrect, therefore I can conclude this evidence is wrong," is that not cherry picking exactly as described by you here?
But I did not point to individual cases or data that confirm my position while ignoring a significant portion of related and similar cases or data that contradict my position. I looked at all the data that is available, and when more data became available I looked at that too. I am always learning new things about the Baha’i Faith as there is so much to learn.

Eventually a person has to draw a conclusion as to whether a religion is true or false, unless they want to remain on the fence like one poster on this forum who has been comparing the Baha’i Faith to Christianity for over 50 years. He is in his 70s so if he continues to be undecided he might and die before he decides and that would be sad for him because the consequences could be huge.
You know, when you claim that you do not use elements of Christianity for your purposes, but then immediately explain how you use elements of Christianity for your purposes, it doesn't look good for you.
What are we using? All religious scriptures predict what will happen in the future so all we are doing is pointing out that Baha’u’llah did what was predicted by in previous scriptures. That is no different from what Christian do what they refer to the Old Testament to try to prove that Jesus was the one predicted by the prophets in the Old Testament.
Yeah, I'm not going to search through all of that looking for one little detail.
Okay, I already know where to find them so below are the names of those who witnessed Baha’u’llah reciting and writing His scriptures after His return from Sulaymáníyyih, which was the period under review.

Mírzá Áqá Ján, Bahá’u’lláh’s secretary

Muhammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, Persia
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
FYI, I was never a Christian so I do not believe everything God allegedly did in the Bible. :rolleyes: In fact, I do not believe much of it.

There is nothing stopping God except God, and that is enough since an all-powerful God only does what He chooses to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209


That does absolutely nothing to explain God's motivation for doing/not doing what he does/doesn't do.


God does not want to convince atheists and that is one reason why God does not comply with their wishes for proof. God wants everyone to look at His Messengers for proof.

Such a shame there are so many nutjobs among them. How many people have claimed to be Jesus and been just plain wrong? List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia

No, it applies, period.

That's not what you said earlier:

"God does not operate according to human logic because God is far above our kind of logic.
God might have a godly kind of logic, but there is no way we can know what that is."

SOURCE

No, I am not saying that and if I ever said it I am now retracting it.

So your claim now is that God is limited by the same logical constraints that apply to us Humans, is that correct?

Logic does not matter. It is not possible, period.

If Logic does not matter, then there is no justification for your claim that it's impossible.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
An opinion is a judgment based on facts, an honest attempt to draw a reasonable conclusion from factual evidence. ... Unlike an opinion, a belief is a conviction based on cultural or personal faith, morality, or values.
Distinguishing Fact, Opinion, Belief, and Prejudice

Except the example that site uses proves that an opinion is a belief.

Their example of an opinion: "For example, we know that millions of people go without proper medical care, and so you form the opinion that the country should institute national health insurance even though it would cost billions of dollars."

Now, WHY would a person hold that opinion that the country should institute national health care? Perhaps because people have a right to be treated for illness, regardless of their financial situation? The right to be healthy is a human right? No one should be forced to suffer through an illness if it can be avoided?

I'm sure you'd probably agree with that, or at least hold a similar viewpoint. In any case, I doubt you will say, "No, people should be made to suffer if they can't pay for healthcare, because it's their own fault for being poor!" Of course not.

Yet, doesn't this fall under the umbrella of a conviction based on morality or personal values? Sure seems like it to me! And that's the very definition that website uses for a belief! So don't tell me that opinion and belief aren't the same thing.

You are correct, one of us has to be wrong if we have different interpretations of the same historical events. The question is who is wrong. That might require digging deeper.

So you are open to the possibility that you could be wrong?

God needs no yardsticks because God knows everything by virtue of being God. After all, one of God’s attributes is all-knowing.

Then it's an arbitrary choice on his part.

If there's no yardstick, God can't say that it's good because it meets certain criteria. All he can say is, "It's good because I say so," and that's the very definition of arbitrary.

You do not have the right but you can choose to if you are evil. God cannot be evil because benevolence is one of God’s attributes, so God will never torture anyone.

Benevolence is one of my attributes as well, so if I clone an animal and then torture it, that means torturing cloned animals is benevolent.

Seriously, that's about the level of your arguments here.

Why is that, because God is not accountable to humans? Is a painter lacking empathy for his painting because he is not accountable to it? But if the painter values the painting that he created it he will care for it and protect it from being damaged after he has finished painting it. That is what God does, cares for us and protects us by sending Messengers.

Paintings are not living, breathing, self aware beings, are they? The painting does not suffer if I throw it into the fire.

How would that be possible if I did not decide it was true before I looked at the evidence? Of course I looked at the evidence before I decided the Baha’i Faith was true.

And it seems that now you have made your decision, you accept or dismiss evidence based solely on whether it fits with that decision, rather than being judged on it's own merits.

Why do you think I only looked at certain pieces of evidence?

They way you phrased it gave that impression.

But I did not point to individual cases or data that confirm my position while ignoring a significant portion of related and similar cases or data that contradict my position. I looked at all the data that is available, and when more data became available I looked at that too. I am always learning new things about the Baha’i Faith as there is so much to learn.

Eventually a person has to draw a conclusion as to whether a religion is true or false, unless they want to remain on the fence like one poster on this forum who has been comparing the Baha’i Faith to Christianity for over 50 years. He is in his 70s so if he continues to be undecided he might and die before he decides and that would be sad for him because the consequences could be huge.

But there should never be a point at which someone refuses to look at new evidence. So tell me, are you prepared to accept your beliefs are wrong if provided with such evidence?

What are we using? All religious scriptures predict what will happen in the future so all we are doing is pointing out that Baha’u’llah did what was predicted by in previous scriptures. That is no different from what Christian do what they refer to the Old Testament to try to prove that Jesus was the one predicted by the prophets in the Old Testament.

How can you say that ALL religious texts predict the future? What about if they're just retelling old stories that were fictitious to begin with?

Okay, I already know where to find them so below are the names of those who witnessed Baha’u’llah reciting and writing His scriptures after His return from Sulaymáníyyih, which was the period under review.

Mírzá Áqá Ján, Bahá’u’lláh’s secretary

Muhammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, Persia

I'll have to take more time to look properly into this. Can you tell me where in their works they made the claim?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That does absolutely nothing to explain God's motivation for doing/not doing what he does/doesn't do.

Baha’u’llah explained much of that in His Writings. What is it you want to know?
Such a shame there are so many nutjobs among them. How many people have claimed to be Jesus and been just plain wrong? List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia
There are many nutjobs but one man was actually the return of Christ/Messiah.

All of them who claimed to be Jesus were wrong because Jesus never said He was going to return, in spite of what Christians believe.
So your claim now is that God is limited by the same logical constraints that apply to us Humans, is that correct?
No, my belief is that God is not limited by anything, except by His nature and what He chooses not to do.
If Logic does not matter, then there is no justification for your claim that it's impossible.
It is impossible unless God chooses to do it, whatever “it” is.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Except the example that site uses proves that an opinion is a belief.

Their example of an opinion: "For example, we know that millions of people go without proper medical care, and so you form the opinion that the country should institute national health insurance even though it would cost billions of dollars."

Now, WHY would a person hold that opinion that the country should institute national health care? Perhaps because people have a right to be treated for illness, regardless of their financial situation? The right to be healthy is a human right? No one should be forced to suffer through an illness if it can be avoided?

I'm sure you'd probably agree with that, or at least hold a similar viewpoint. In any case, I doubt you will say, "No, people should be made to suffer if they can't pay for healthcare, because it's their own fault for being poor!" Of course not.

Yet, doesn't this fall under the umbrella of a conviction based on morality or personal values? Sure seems like it to me! And that's the very definition that website uses for a belief! So don't tell me that opinion and belief aren't the same thing.
There is a fine line between an opinion and a belief. I would say an opinion is based upon facts which are influenced by morality and values whereas a belief does not have to be based upon any facts. It can be is based solely upon faith, which may or may not be influenced by morality and values. However, a belief can be based upon facts, such as what I believe about Baha’u’llah, for which facts are obtainable. Such is not the case with Christianity because we can confirm no facts about Jesus.
So you are open to the possibility that you could be wrong?
No, not unless someone could dig up some dirt on Baha’u’llah, but I have been a Baha’i for over 50 years so if there was any dirt I would have found it by now. It is not as if I am avoiding it or ignoring something I don’t want to see.
Then it's an arbitrary choice on his part.

If there's no yardstick, God can't say that it's good because it meets certain criteria. All he can say is, "It's good because I say so," and that's the very definition of arbitrary.
God does not have to meet any human criteria because God has His own criteria and since God is infallible no matter what He decides He is always right.

God is never arbitrary, only humans are arbitrary. Since God is all-knowing and all-wise nothing God does is random choice or personal whim as with human choices, but rather it is for a reason.
Benevolence is one of my attributes as well, so if I clone an animal and then torture it, that means torturing cloned animals is benevolent.

Seriously, that's about the level of your arguments here.
Because you are a human with a lower material nature and a higher spiritual nature you can choose to be benevolent or malevolent. God by contrast cannot choose. God is always benevolent since God is benevolent by nature and God is unchanging.
Paintings are not living, breathing, self aware beings, are they? The painting does not suffer if I throw it into the fire.
That’s true, but who is throwing anyone into the fire? A murderer might do that to a victim but God does not do it to anyone.
And it seems that now you have made your decision, you accept or dismiss evidence based solely on whether it fits with that decision, rather than being judged on it's own merits.
No, I will look at any new evidence that comes in and I will judge it on its own merits.
But there should never be a point at which someone refuses to look at new evidence. So tell me, are you prepared to accept your beliefs are wrong if provided with such evidence?
Yes and good luck. Many have tried and many have failed. Before I joined this forum in December 2017 I have long been a member of another forum and the atheist forum owner tried to prove that Baha’u’llah was not who He claimed to by digging up dirt.
How can you say that ALL religious texts predict the future? What about if they're just retelling old stories that were fictitious to begin with?
Maybe not always but the Messenger who establishes a religion usually foretells of the next Messenger who will come in the future.
I'll have to take more time to look properly into this. Can you tell me where in their works they made the claim?
Mírzá Áqá Ján and Muhammad Karím did not make any claims, they were witnesses to the verses Baha’u’llah spoke out loud and to what He wrote in His tablets. If you want to read the stories they are in God Passes By, pp. 137-138.

If you want to read the history it is on pages 103-233 in God Passes By beginning here:

SECOND PERIOD: THE MINISTRY OF BAHÁ’U’LLÁH 1853–1892

The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, also covers the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Baha’u’llah explained much of that in His Writings. What is it you want to know?

You don't get it.

As far as I am concerned, he was just another person who believed he was inspired by a God who just doesn't exist. I'm not interested in what a person's fan theories about God are. I want to know what God himself is doing, and he is perpetually quiet on the topic because he doesn't exist. That's why it's always his "messengers" who have to do the speaking for him.

There are many nutjobs but one man was actually the return of Christ/Messiah.

All of them who claimed to be Jesus were wrong because Jesus never said He was going to return, in spite of what Christians believe.

And the people who believed those other "nutjobs" were just as convinced as you. Your convictions mean nothing.

No, my belief is that God is not limited by anything, except by His nature and what He chooses not to do.

Man, you're flip flopping on this issue more than a politician. Please pick a side and stick with it.

  1. God can do things that are logically impossible.
  2. God is limited by logic.

Please pick one. Option 1 or option 2.

It is impossible unless God chooses to do it, whatever “it” is.

That's meaningless nonsense. You might as well say that it's impossible for me to scratch my nose until I actually scratch my nose.

So that sounds like option 1, am I right?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
No, not unless someone could dig up some dirt on Baha’u’llah, but I have been a Baha’i for over 50 years so if there was any dirt I would have found it by now. It is not as if I am avoiding it or ignoring something I don’t want to see.

However, many people have found the claims of your faith to be lacking. And people have been Christian for a lot longer than people have been Baha'i, and if there was any dirt to be found, then surely that would have been uncovered by now. So Christianity has gone without dirt for a lot longer than Baha'i, by your argument.

God does not have to meet any human criteria because God has His own criteria and since God is infallible no matter what He decides He is always right.

God is never arbitrary, only humans are arbitrary. Since God is all-knowing and all-wise nothing God does is random choice or personal whim as with human choices, but rather it is for a reason.

Again, you seem incapable of understanding my point.

Because you are a human with a lower material nature and a higher spiritual nature you can choose to be benevolent or malevolent. God by contrast cannot choose. God is always benevolent since God is benevolent by nature and God is unchanging.

Incorrect.

God created the world and said it was good, but then changed his mind and destroyed it in the flood because he regretted making people. That's changing his position, and it shows that God is not unchanging.

That’s true, but who is throwing anyone into the fire? A murderer might do that to a victim but God does not do it to anyone.

There are plenty of people who believe he does, with a little thing called Hell.

In any case, there are still plenty of people suffering in the world, so my point stands.

No, I will look at any new evidence that comes in and I will judge it on its own merits.

Yes and good luck. Many have tried and many have failed. Before I joined this forum in December 2017 I have long been a member of another forum and the atheist forum owner tried to prove that Baha’u’llah was not who He claimed to by digging up dirt.

At least you have an open mind.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You don't get it.

As far as I am concerned, he was just another person who believed he was inspired by a God who just doesn't exist. I'm not interested in what a person's fan theories about God are. I want to know what God himself is doing, and he is perpetually quiet on the topic because he doesn't exist. That's why it's always his "Messengers" who have to do the speaking for him.
You don't get it. The ONLY WAY you can ever know what God is doing is through God’s Messengers, so you are sol of you don’t listen to them.

Why is it always his "messengers" who have to do the speaking for him ????????????????????

For starters, because God is not a man who can speak or write. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
And the people who believed those other "nutjobs" were just as convinced as you. Your convictions mean nothing.
I cannot do anything with people who do not understand basic logic. Here, let’s try an analogy. Many Americans are convinced that Biden stole the election and Trump was really the winner so does that mean that Biden did not really win? Clearly, the evidence proves that Biden won.

I am not saying my convictions prove anything, I am saying that my evidence prove that Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ.
Man, you're flip flopping on this issue more than a politician. Please pick a side and stick with it.

1. God can do things that are logically impossible.
2. God is limited by logic.

Please pick one. Option 1 or option 2.
I am not going to pick 1 or 2 because it is neither one since logic does not apply to God.
That's meaningless nonsense. You might as well say that it's impossible for me to scratch my nose until I actually scratch my nose.

So that sounds like option 1, am I right?
You still don’t get it but this is not that difficult. God only does what God chooses to do, which means nobody can make God do anything unless God wants to do it.

Omnipotence implies ability but it also implies that God only USES that ability as He chooses to, NOT as you want Him to. Here is what omnipotence implies, in a nutshell:

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284


“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73


He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain.

· That means you have no right to question what God ordains. It is what it is and YOU cannot change it.

for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will.

· That means God has complete power and He does whatever He chooses to do, which implies that He is not going to do what you think He should do or what you want Him to do, unless He chooses to do it.

To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish.

· That means if God feels like giving you something you will get it but if not you won’t.

I hope we have this cleared up now. God 101 stuff.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
However, many people have found the claims of your faith to be lacking.
So what? Why would I care what 'many people' have found? That does not prove anything at all.

Argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
And people have been Christian for a lot longer than people have been Baha'i, and if there was any dirt to be found, then surely that would have been uncovered by now. So Christianity has gone without dirt for a lot longer than Baha'i, by your argument.
I never said that Christianity has no dirt but it is the dirt brought in by the Christian leaders, not any dirt Jesus had. Likewise, there is no dirt to be found on Baha’u’llah, unless you can prove He did something I don’t know about.
Again, you seem incapable of understanding my point.
What was it?
Incorrect.

God created the world and said it was good, but then changed his mind and destroyed it in the flood because he regretted making people. That's changing his position, and it shows that God is not unchanging.
Please don’t start with the Bible, as I do not believe those ridiculous stories. I guess you never really divorced yourself from Christianity.

God does not change His mind or have any regrets. The Old Testament is a gross anthropomorphism of God.
There are plenty of people who believe he does, with a little thing called Hell.
Why would it matter what plenty of people believe? That is the fallacy of Argumentum ad populum again.
In any case, there are still plenty of people suffering in the world, so my point stands.
I don’t know what your point was but I agree about the suffering in the world, and that some of it is God’s fault since God created a world in which He knew there would be unavoidable suffering.
At least you have an open mind.
I do, and thanks for that. :)
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
You don't get it. The ONLY WAY you can ever know what God is doing is through God’s Messengers, so you are sol of you don’t listen to them.

So how do the messengers get the message?

Why is it always his "messengers" who have to do the speaking for him ????????????????????

For starters, because God is not a man who can speak or write. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

God can't speak or write. The almighty, a being who can do everything, is unable to speak or write.

Yah huh.

I cannot do anything with people who do not understand basic logic. Here, let’s try an analogy. Many Americans are convinced that Biden stole the election and Trump was really the winner so does that mean that Biden did not really win? Clearly, the evidence proves that Biden won.

I am not saying my convictions prove anything, I am saying that my evidence prove that Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ.

Your evidence proves nothing. You're like the guy who claims his evidence proves Biden stole the election. You do realise that they claim to have evidence too, right?

I am not going to pick 1 or 2 because it is neither one since logic does not apply to God.

Then you are picking 1, because if logic does not apply to God, then God can do things that are logically impossible.

You still don’t get it but this is not that difficult. God only does what God chooses to do, which means nobody can make God do anything unless God wants to do it.

Omnipotence implies ability but it also implies that God only USES that ability as He chooses to, NOT as you want Him to. Here is what omnipotence implies, in a nutshell:

“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest. He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p, 284


“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

“God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 73


He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain.

· That means you have no right to question what God ordains. It is what it is and YOU cannot change it.

for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will.

· That means God has complete power and He does whatever He chooses to do, which implies that He is not going to do what you think He should do or what you want Him to do, unless He chooses to do it.

To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish.

· That means if God feels like giving you something you will get it but if not you won’t.

I hope we have this cleared up now. God 101 stuff.

Sounds like a whole lot of justification why it's impossible to get reliable, repeatable results from religion.

I prefer the much simpler explanation. You don't get reliable results from religion because it's wrong.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
So what? Why would I care what 'many people' have found? That does not prove anything at all.

Argumentum ad populum

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.


Sorry, I thought that logical fallacies were all the rage, since you seemed to think your own personal experience anecdote was sufficient to count as evidence.

I never said that Christianity has no dirt but it is the dirt brought in by the Christian leaders, not any dirt Jesus had. Likewise, there is no dirt to be found on Baha’u’llah, unless you can prove He did something I don’t know about.

There's plenty from the Bible that renders the story of Jesus as unlikely or impossible.

What was it?

That God's determination of what is good and what is bad is completely arbitrary.

Either he has some external set of criteria that he uses to determine if something is good or bad (in which case he is not God and also isn't required for morality), or the criteria come from him and thus are arbitrary and mean nothing.

Please don’t start with the Bible, as I do not believe those ridiculous stories. I guess you never really divorced yourself from Christianity.

God does not change His mind or have any regrets. The Old Testament is a gross anthropomorphism of God.

That's a bit rich, considering how much you loved using the Bible to support your own religious faith. I even had to issue a challenge to you to get you to stop doing it!

Why would it matter what plenty of people believe? That is the fallacy of Argumentum ad populum again.

In my experience, when it comes to religious beliefs, there's nothing but logical fallacies that can be used to justify them.

I don’t know what your point was but I agree about the suffering in the world, and that some of it is God’s fault since God created a world in which He knew there would be unavoidable suffering.

My original point was that God lacks empathy for creating such a world. At first you appeared to be disagreeing with me, but now you agree? Again you flip-flop.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Don't worry, there is no such place, except in the minds of some Christians. ;)

Sorry but Matthew 25:41-46 along with many other scriptures disagrees with you.

Also see Revelation 20:15

So since there is such a place, it might be a good idea to worry enough to find out how to avoid it.
 
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cataway

Well-Known Member
Sorry but Matthew 25:41-46 along with many other scriptures disagrees with you.

Also see Revelation 20:15

So since there is such a place, it might be a good idea to worry enough to find out how to avoid it.
you seem to be having a problem with figurative language
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Sorry but Matthew 25:41-46 along with many other scriptures disagrees with you.

Also see Revelation 20:15

So since there is such a place, it might be a good idea to worry enough to find out how to avoid it.
Good to see you again, where have you been hiding?

I did not mean there is no hell, I meant that hell is not a geographical location, it is a state of the soul that is distant from God. Yes, it might be a good idea to worry enough to find out how to avoid it. It might also be a good idea to find out how to get to heaven, which is a sate of the soul that is near to God.

This short video explains my beliefs about heaven and hell better than I can.

 
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