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Loved ones in hell - take 2.

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You are contradicting yourself.

You claim that you have facts that prove he is the returned Messiah, and then you say that there are no facts that can prove that anyone is the returned Messiah.
I have facts that prove to me that Baha'u'llah is the returned Messiah has all kinds of factual evidence to support it, but the facts that prove it to me won’t prove it to everyone.

God claims can never be proven as a fact that everyone will believe and that is why they are beliefs.
And if you see someone in danger of imminent death, would you go to help them in whatever way you could, or would you say, "Well, that's not MY responsibility," and walk away?
I would because it is my moral responsibility, but God is not a human who has moral responsibilities.
If you only look at the evidence that supports your beliefs, then you are cherry picking.
No, cherry picking would be only looking at certain verses that support my beliefs, but I don’t do that. I am willing to look at any evidence that does not support my beliefs, and I have seen it, but I know it is not true because I have checked it against the evidence I know is true.
There are plenty of people who are prolific authors. That fact they wrote a huge amount does not prove divinity.
I said not just the bulk of it, but also the content, but speaking if bulk, those prolific authors did not write as much as fast as Baha’u’llah did.

“So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred. A vast, and indeed the greater, proportion of these writings were, alas, lost irretrievably to posterity. No less an authority than Mírzá Áqá Ján, Bahá’u’lláh’s amanuensis, affirms, as reported by Nabíl, that by the express order of Bahá’u’lláh, hundreds of thousands of verses, mostly written by His own hand, were obliterated and cast into the river. “Finding me reluctant to execute His orders,” Mírzá Áqá Ján has related to Nabíl, “Bahá’u’lláh would reassure me saying: ‘None is to be found at this time worthy to hear these melodies.’ …Not once, or twice, but innumerable times, was I commanded to repeat this act.”God Passes By, pp. 137-138

“A certain Muhammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.” God Passes By, p. 138
Well, you lemme know when it happens, okay?
Wake up and smell the coffee, as you are about 150 years late, because it happened in the last half of the 19th century and how it happened is all in that video you won’t watch.
True, but a prophecy that the sun will rise tomorrow would pass that criterion.
Okay, I see what you mean, so I just that sixth criterion to the list of five. :)
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Simply put, to get bad people to be good, God would have to override the free will of people who choose to be bad.

Well, God's already demonstrated that he's happy to do that. Remember Pharaoh? God hardened his heart lots of times.

In any case, why do you say God couldn't do it? Why couldn't he cause us to be good without violating our free will?
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I have facts that prove to me that Baha'u'llah is the returned Messiah has all kinds of factual evidence to support it, but the facts that prove it to me won’t prove it to everyone.

I have to wonder if they are actual facts or just your interpretation...

God claims can never be proven as a fact that everyone will believe and that is why they are beliefs.

If something is a fact, then it can be proven to everyone. I can prove that 1+1=2, and that proof applies to everyone. If it can be proven as a fact for everyone, then it's just an opinion, not a fact.

I would because it is my moral responsibility, but God is not a human who has moral responsibilities.

Does God not have moral responsibilities?

No, cherry picking would be only looking at certain verses that support my beliefs, but I don’t do that. I am willing to look at any evidence that does not support my beliefs, and I have seen it, but I know it is not true because I have checked it against the evidence I know is true.

First of all, you said, "I looked at the evidence that support my beliefs." If you only look at the evidence that supports your beliefs, that is by definition cherry picking.

Secondly, you sound like a flat-earther saying, "Yes, I've looked at the evidence for a spherical Earth, but I know it's not true because I have checked it against the evidence for a flat earth that I know is true."

I said not just the bulk of it, but also the content, but speaking if bulk, those prolific authors did not write as much as fast as Baha’u’llah did.

Okay, let's have a close look at this.

“So prolific was this period, that during the first two years after His return from His retirement, according to the testimony of Nabíl, who was at that time living in Baghdád, the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án! As to those verses which He either dictated or wrote Himself, their number was no less remarkable than either the wealth of material they contained, or the diversity of subjects to which they referred. A vast, and indeed the greater, proportion of these writings were, alas, lost irretrievably to posterity. No less an authority than Mírzá Áqá Ján, Bahá’u’lláh’s amanuensis, affirms, as reported by Nabíl, that by the express order of Bahá’u’lláh, hundreds of thousands of verses, mostly written by His own hand, were obliterated and cast into the river. “Finding me reluctant to execute His orders,” Mírzá Áqá Ján has related to Nabíl, “Bahá’u’lláh would reassure me saying: ‘None is to be found at this time worthy to hear these melodies.’ …Not once, or twice, but innumerable times, was I commanded to repeat this act.”God Passes By, pp. 137-138

“A certain Muhammad Karím, a native of Shíráz, who had been a witness to the rapidity and the manner in which the Báb had penned the verses with which He was inspired, has left the following testimony to posterity, after attaining, during those days, the presence of Bahá’u’lláh, and beholding with his own eyes what he himself had considered to be the only proof of the mission of the Promised One: “I bear witness that the verses revealed by Bahá’u’lláh were superior, in the rapidity with which they were penned, in the ease with which they flowed, in their lucidity, their profundity and sweetness to those which I, myself saw pour from the pen of the Báb when in His presence. Had Bahá’u’lláh no other claim to greatness, this were sufficient, in the eyes of the world and its people, that He produced such verses as have streamed this day from His pen.” God Passes By, p. 138

I found a source that says there are 77,797 woprds in the Qur'an. SOURCE Let's assume he spent 8 hours a day asleep, that leaves 16 hours a day. That's 960 minutes, or 57,600 seconds. That means he's have to speak a word every 1.3 seconds on average, from the time he woke up to the time he went to sleep. And that's allowing no breaks for things like eating or anything else. It's literally just waking up and immediately starting to speak non-stop until he goes to sleep 16 hours later. I find it hard to take that claim seriously.

Wake up and smell the coffee, as you are about 150 years late, because it happened in the last half of the 19th century and how it happened is all in that video you won’t watch.

You seem incapable of following our conversation. I had said, "So the Messiah wants the world to be peaceful, and yet isn't going to do a single thing to make it happen? Looking at Humans today, do you think it's ever going to happen if the only ones working for it are Humans? Coz I don't think so."

You replied: "It might take a long time but it will happen eventually."

I said: "Perhaps I should add a sixth criteria: You can't claim a prophecy is valid by saying, "Well, it hasn't happened YET, but it will happen..."

You said: "I am fine with that criterion because it is fair. I do not expect people to believe it until it actually happens, but I do expect them to believe all the prophecies that have been fulfilled."

I said: "Well, you lemme know when it happens, okay?"

And now you are saying it happened 150 years ago? Did we really achieve world peace a hundred and fifty years ago? WOW! That's great news!
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
God, being all knowing and all powerful, could do it in a way that does Not take away our dignity or well being.
God being all knowing and all powerful has nothing to do with it. Any interference with our free will by forcing us to be someone we are not or do something we do not want to do is taking away our right to choose freely.
What did they teach you about God in Christianity anyway?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well, God's already demonstrated that he's happy to do that. Remember Pharaoh? God hardened his heart lots of times.
That was just a story, God did not really harden his heart.
In any case, why do you say God couldn't do it? Why couldn't he cause us to be good without violating our free will?
God would be violating our free will if we wanted to be bad and He forced us to be good.
That would be like me being bad and deciding not to respond to my posts and God making me respond. ;)
 

Viker

Häxan
A pastor told me to my face that my Jewish great grandmother was going to hell. I told him he had no clue what really happens after we die.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I have to wonder if they are actual facts or just your interpretation...
They are actual facts but everyone will interpret them as they see fit.
If something is a fact, then it can be proven to everyone. I can prove that 1+1=2, and that proof applies to everyone. If it can be proven as a fact for everyone, then it's just an opinion, not a fact.
Potentially a fact could be proven to everyone but not all facts are the same. Simple facts such as 1+1-2, are not the same as facts of history. Facts of history can be interpreted differently by different people. You cannot twist 1+1-2 but people can twist historical facts.

Why do you think that just because a fact as been proven everyone will believe it? It was proven as a fact that the U.S. Presidential election was not ‘stolen’ but many people still believe it was stolen.
Does God not have moral responsibilities?
No, because God is not a moral agent. Only humans are moral agents. God sets the standards for human morality but God is not subject to morality because God is not a human. Moreover, God does not have to discern right from wrong because God already knows what is right and wrong, and that is why He can set the standards for what is right.

What does it mean to be a moral agent?

A moral agent is any person or collective entity with the capacity to exercise moral agency. It is suggested that rational thought and deliberation are prerequisite skills for any agent. In this way, moral agents can discern between right and wrong and be held accountable for the consequences of their actions.
Moral Agency - Physiopedia

First of all, you said, "I looked at the evidence that support my beliefs." If you only look at the evidence that supports your beliefs, that is by definition cherry picking.

Secondly, you sound like a flat-earther saying, "Yes, I've looked at the evidence for a spherical Earth, but I know it's not true because I have checked it against the evidence for a flat earth that I know is true."
I can understand how what I said sounded to you, so let me start over. I have looked at what the anti-Baha’is say about Baha’u’llah and other things that surround Baha’i history and I determined they are not true. For one thing, the fact that they are anti-Baha’i shows that they are biased right out the door, and the Christians and Muslims are always gunning for us. For another thing, there is no proof that their allegations are true.

Also, you have to use logic. Why would a Christian writing about Baha’i history represent it as accurately as a Baha’i who was actually there when that history was unfolding? Why would a Christian even be writing about Baha’i history? Baha’is do not write about Christian history. They do it hipong to denigrate the Baha’i Faith because we are competition for them.
Okay, let's have a close look at this.

I found a source that says there are 77,797 words in the Qur'an. SOURCE Let's assume he spent 8 hours a day asleep, that leaves 16 hours a day. That's 960 minutes, or 57,600 seconds. That means he's have to speak a word every 1.3 seconds on average, from the time he woke up to the time he went to sleep. And that's allowing no breaks for things like eating or anything else. It's literally just waking up and immediately starting to speak non-stop until he goes to sleep 16 hours later. I find it hard to take that claim seriously.
It says in the chronicles of the Baha’i Faith that “the unrecorded verses that streamed from His lips averaged, in a single day and night, the equivalent of the Qur’án!” and that means that someone was there who actually witnessed that happening, so it is not a claim that Baha’u’llah made.
You seem incapable of following our conversation. I had said, "So the Messiah wants the world to be peaceful, and yet isn't going to do a single thing to make it happen? Looking at Humans today, do you think it's ever going to happen if the only ones working for it are Humans? Coz I don't think so."

You replied: "It might take a long time but it will happen eventually."

I said: "Perhaps I should add a sixth criteria: You can't claim a prophecy is valid by saying, "Well, it hasn't happened YET, but it will happen..."

You said: "I am fine with that criterion because it is fair. I do not expect people to believe it until it actually happens, but I do expect them to believe all the prophecies that have been fulfilled."

I said: "Well, you lemme know when it happens, okay?"

And now you are saying it happened 150 years ago? Did we really achieve world peace a hundred and fifty years ago? WOW! That's great news!
I never said that we achieved world peace 150 years ago. I said “you are about 150 years late, because it happened in the last half of the 19th century and how it happened is all in that video you won’t watch.” What happened was not world peace; it was the coming of Baha’u’llah that thereby fulfilled the prophecies for the return of Christ/Messiah. Baha’u’llah ushered in the age in which world peace will be established but there are many prophecies that have not been fulfilled yet because they were set to be fulfilled sometime during the messianic age which will last no less than 1000 years from the date Baha’u’llah first got His revelation in 1852 AD.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
God being all knowing and all powerful has nothing to do with it. Any interference with our free will by forcing us to be someone we are not or do something we do not want to do is taking away our right to choose freely.
What did they teach you about God in Christianity anyway?

I'm just pointing out that if God really is All POWERFUL, then getting us to do what he wishes for us to do would be a very simple matter. Seeing as how he is All POWERFUL, and all that. As in, he can literally do anything.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
That was just a story, God did not really harden his heart.

How have you determined this?

God would be violating our free will if we wanted to be bad and He forced us to be good.
That would be like me being bad and deciding not to respond to my posts and God making me respond. ;)

God, being all powerful, could force us to be good without violating our free will.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm just pointing out that if God really is All POWERFUL, then getting us to do what he wishes for us to do would be a very simple matter. Seeing as how he is All POWERFUL, and all that. As in, he can literally do anything.
It would be a very simple matter IF God wanted to do it, but obviously He does not want to do it. Otherwise everything that people do would be in accordance with God's will, but it isn't.
 
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