Losing my atheism

[George-ananda]

Well it all starts with mathematics because when I see mathematics I see something metaphysical, something absolute and transcendental in every regard. My long time interest in Pythagoreanism is what brought this into me as I value numbers beyond all else. When I was an atheist this always stuck with me because here I am disregarding metaphysics yet the one thing I value and use with certainty and utmost faith is the one thing that I know for a fact is metaphysical.

So when I began contemplating the existence of gods I was always taken away by the mere concept of a monad, an originator of numbers and metaphysical absolutes. If there is order in something metaphysical and it offers absolutes then why is it agency and intent is thrown out of the question as well. So it naturally progressed from that and slowly began making me try to legitimize my atheism constantly while also trying to engage in things people deem spiritual.

Furthermore the concept of a god to me is a very over hyped and blown completely out of proportion. Gods merely provide man with a way of legitimizing and understanding order and to extend it beyond that is of great error. Christians and the atheists they spawned from the wretches of their own community have only perpetuated this lengthy cycle of bickering over an irrelevant concept of a metaphysical being.

Interesting. Would 'Deism' describe your beliefs?

Do you have any thoughts on things like souls?

 

[SabahTheLoner]

Over the last couple of weeks I have become very doubtful of my atheism and after weeks of dialogue with a close I finally shredded myself of the remaining remnants of my atheism. It still feels weird despite how organic my lack of belief was and my contempt for religion as a whole. To even admit my belief in a god at this very moment feels like an utter humiliation considering how secular minded I have always been and to some degree still am although with a very different interpretation.

When I was an atheist I was comfortable with myself until I felt that urge to be free and experience the beauties that religions have offered. The very minute I wanted to return to that I could not as my heart was closed to anything involving the mere conception of a god. My pragmatic attitude only developed in me having to reassure myself that I am not only an atheist but an anti-theist. My opposition to religion is still strong but at the same time I appreciate it more now.

As an ex-atheist myself I understand where you're coming from and I can appreciate the fact you're trying not to be boxed up in one place forever. It's hard to do for many people.

We change over time and it can be a little weird transitioning. Just remember that paths aren't always paved and you can always make new roads, and how you travel is your choice alone.

 

[DavidFirth]

I have a great deal of respect for people who are at least willing to confess that a god might exist because how can a person ever truly be sure no god exists?

 

[Sha'irullah]

Interesting. Would 'Deism' describe your beliefs?

I would just saying that I am a philosophical theist or a pragmatic theist. I am not going to dive into areas I cannot prove with the sincerity of belief. I approach all theistic thought the same way I approach politics and philosophy, with great caution and sarcastic skepticism.

Do you have any thoughts on things like souls?

I believe a soul is possible based off a few possible thoughts but I would not say that it is knowable. The potential that matter is alive is of great concern to me and the potential that dualism may be the case due to my experiences with sensory deprivation.

I do not believe that any possible deity could be moral, if anything it is amoral and most likely lacks initial intent.

 

[DavidFirth]

Been an atheist for years bruh, before that I was a Deist in the midst of deconverting to Islam and that is about all I have been religiously.

Also, women do not change their underwear as much as you would like to think, which is sad if you're dating

Worse if you're married! Please don't ever say that again!

 

[George-ananda]

I would just saying that I am a philosophical theist or a pragmatic theist. I am not going to dive into areas I cannot prove with the sincerity of belief. I approach all theistic thought the same way I approach politics and philosophy, with great caution and sarcastic skepticism.


I believe a soul is possible based off a few possible thoughts but I would not say that it is knowable. The potential that matter is alive is of great concern to me and the potential that dualism may be the case due to my experiences with sensory deprivation.

I do not believe that any possible deity could be moral, if anything it is amoral and most likely lacks initial intent.

OK. All a bit confusing to me.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I have a great deal of respect for people who are at least willing to confess that a god might exist because how can a person ever truly be sure no god exists?

Most atheists are not, most are pragmatic intellectually but emotionally have as much faith in their position as a Christian has faith in Jesus. My initial revulsion towards atheists was that I found many of them to be incredibly inconsistent with their views and approaching atheism in a very religious manner.

I have been attacked by atheists for:

• Calling parts of the Bible beautiful.
• Questioning transexualism.
• Disapproving of neo marxism.
• Holding moral principles.
• Veganism.
• Refraining from alcohol.

So I do have to acknowledge that my stubbornness to accept every tenet of atheism as a religion made me more intolerant towards it.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Over the last couple of weeks I have become very doubtful of my atheism and after weeks of dialogue with a close I finally shredded myself of the remaining remnants of my atheism. It still feels weird despite how organic my lack of belief was and my contempt for religion as a whole. To even admit my belief in a god at this very moment feels like an utter humiliation considering how secular minded I have always been and to some degree still am although with a very different interpretation.

When I was an atheist I was comfortable with myself until I felt that urge to be free and experience the beauties that religions have offered. The very minute I wanted to return to that I could not as my heart was closed to anything involving the mere conception of a god. My pragmatic attitude only developed in me having to reassure myself that I am not only an atheist but an anti-theist. My opposition to religion is still strong but at the same time I appreciate it more now.

As an ex-atheist, I can certainly identify, I was every bit as contemptuous and dismissive towards faith, religion as any other atheist on this site, for many years.

The more names I called people with different beliefs than my own, the harder it was to consider their position with an anything like an open mind..

It's extremely difficult to see beyond a belief, that inherently refuses to recognize itself as such!

 

[Sha'irullah]

OK. All a bit confusing to me.

Don't worry, I am slightly drunk at the moment thanks to some nice gin .

Essentially what I am saying is that since math is metaphysical and offers absolutes like addition and the rules of numbers yet is permissible and relevant in any circumstance then it is also possible for other metaphysical things to also be true. This opens up other ideas like gods, spirits, and afterlifes etc.

 

[Jumi]

I have been attacked by atheists for:

• Calling parts of the Bible beautiful.
• Questioning transexualism.
• Disapproving of neo marxism.
• Holding moral principles.
• Veganism.
• Refraining from alcohol.

Excuse me but I find your list strange, if you think these are common "atheist" things I have to question your depth of inquiry while you were one and if you mostly discussed things with the Marxist and antitheist? Never have I met an atheist online or otherwise who disproved moral principles or refraining from alcohol, these sound like complete outliers to me.

 

[Twilight Hue]

I have a great deal of respect for people who are at least willing to confess that a god might exist because how can a person ever truly be sure no god exists?

It first takes a God to acknowledge a God.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Excuse me but I find your list strange, if you think these are common "atheist" things I have to question your depth of inquiry while you were one and if you mostly discussed things with the Marxist and antitheist? Never have I met an atheist online or otherwise who disproved moral principles or refraining from alcohol, these sound like complete outliers to me.

I am not blanketing all atheists here but I am merely stating things I have encountered that caused vitriol. Granted refraining from alcohol was not a biggy but it has caused unnecessary drama. And my depth of inquiry as an atheist was probably just as deep if not deeper than yours. I have a bookshelf and a reading list to prove it I should add.

Also the top three on my list were the ones that were more debated and caused trouble for atheists than the others. Now in terms of moral principles and the backlash it causes I do notice that amongst theists they will not question my requests because they always assumed it could be for religious purposes and henceforth they stay out of it but atheists who knew I was an atheists became increasingly hostile toward it at times. I do think there is a subconscious factor about this because religious people don't like clashing with other religious people like many would think and often get embarrassed to discuss religion with others due to their subconscious secularism.

For example I was always very adamant about things like marriage and sex; family values, and public perception. When I became an atheist it made me increasingly conservative as I later studied evolution and sociology which tends to be the opposite of how things go as I have realized. So this put me in great odds with atheists despite the fact I never like sharing my views on matters and prefer leaving things as are.

You can theorize what you want but I don't think anything you say will summarize all of my experiences or their context.

 

[Rival]

it made me increasingly conservative as I later studied evolution and sociology which tends to be the opposite of how things go as I have realized. So this put me in great odds with atheists despite the fact I never like sharing my views on matters and prefer leaving things as are.

So much this. This describes me exactly when I was an atheist. I hear you.

 

[Jumi]

I am not blanketing all atheists here but I am merely stating things I have encountered that caused vitriol. Granted refraining from alcohol was not a biggy but it has caused unnecessary drama. And my depth of inquiry as an atheist was probably just as deep if not deeper than yours. I have a bookshelf and a reading list to prove it I should add.

And these things are mentioned in books you have read or do you think they might have been personal views? As you might know, there are atheists on board RF that are against Marxism of any form or have a negative view on it. Indeed I was one of them when I was atheist. I've "defended" vegans on this site as an atheist. I have never even met anyone who was against not drinking in any circle I have ever been in. Much of the time it has gained respect even.

Also the top three on my list were the ones that were more debated and caused trouble for atheists than the others. Now in terms of moral principles and the backlash it causes I do notice that amongst theists they will not question my requests because they always assumed it could be for religious purposes and henceforth they stay out of it but atheists who knew I was an atheists became increasingly hostile toward it at times. I do think there is a subconscious factor about this because religious people don't like clashing with other religious people like many would think and often get embarrassed to discuss religion with others due to their subconscious secularism.

Most of the time I have been involved in debates, atheists will defend the fact that they have moral values against some theists who claim no atheist can be moral. Indeed I think I've defended such a view against some people in this thread and being libertarian I have argued against Marxist views.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Most atheists are not, most are pragmatic intellectually but emotionally have as much faith in their position as a Christian has faith in Jesus. My initial revulsion towards atheists was that I found many of them to be incredibly inconsistent with their views and approaching atheism in a very religious manner.

I have been attacked by atheists for:

• Calling parts of the Bible beautiful.
• Questioning transexualism.
• Disapproving of neo marxism.
• Holding moral principles.
• Veganism.
• Refraining from alcohol.

So I do have to acknowledge that my stubbornness to accept every tenet of atheism as a religion made me more intolerant towards it.

It will be a lot easier go if atheism is viewed as it was originally coined, That is, "Without Gods".

The rest is simply schematics imo. Like "tenants" and such. Atheism has no tenants that I know of offhand.

 

[Sha'irullah]

And these things are mentioned in books you have read or do you think they might have been personal views?

I am referring to my knowledge of atheism and I am only making claims about my experience with them.
I am actually only referring to my experience with atheists as of these posts. Most literature I have read concerning atheism is pretty bland in most regards and it only offering repetitive critique of religion. Atheism should have far more diversity than what it offers now.

As you might know, there are atheists on board RF that are against Marxism of any form or have a negative view on it. Indeed I was one of them when I was atheist. I've "defended" vegans on this site as an atheist. I have never even met anyone who was against not drinking in any circle I have ever been in. Much of the time it has gained respect even.

I am fully aware of this but it does not change the issues I have experienced. Also about the refraining from alcohol, it has only caused great amounts of ridicule and accusations I am "not living life." It has never been a big deal hence my decision to create the list in mostly descending order as I thought it out. Technically you could split the list in half.

Most of the time I have been involved in debates, atheists will defend the fact that they have moral values against some theists who claim no atheist can be moral. Indeed I think I've defended such a view against some people in this thread and being libertarian I have argued against Marxist views.

This has been a massive gripe for me though. Everytime I encounter a moral atheist he or she has innate human goodness yet at the same time has not developed a sense of morality beyond rudimentary basics. They immediately feel that any moral decision that is similar to what is deemed religiously moral makes it invalid. Yet if this same morality was religious yet non-Christian or non-Abrahamic it would raise few eyebrows.

I blame this mostly on Western aversion to Christianity and atheists lack of understanding on the universality of morality and its spread through religion. So few of them understand that Dharmic morality is FAR more stricter than Christian or Islam which is why Islam thrived in India upon arrival as i was less restrive.

I do not few atheists as immoral but I do view quite a few of them as morally immature. I cannot tell if this is due to age or other factors because statistically atheists tend to be younger than the average population and on top of this even young religious individuals have the same problem.

Also it is good to know we are both libertarians and lowercase libertarians as well

 

[Sha'irullah]

It will be a lot easier go if atheism is viewed as it was originally coined, That is, "Without Gods".

The rest is simply schematics imo. Like "tenants" and such. Atheism has no tenants that I know of offhand.

I am sure me and you have similar sentiments. We cannot help if something gets hijacked by insecure outsiders and I just hate the notion that atheism is being used as a political tool for secularism yet at the same time is developing a very immature set of political groups. The basic notion of some atheists in the political world is to vote for the least religious candidate. Yet I have a bizarre knack for doing the opposite.

Atheism has nothing else to discuss really yet so many people; whether atheists or theists have a strong tendency to make it seem like a great dinner discussion. It is a very trivial thing to talk about in my opinion and it is also a very natural thing if you ask me. Capitalism makes religiosity extremely hard and modernity has just sliced the religious community into irreconcilable parties.

This only brings joy to my heart though

But just imagine you are at dinner and a siblings tell you in a great dramatic tone, "I am no longer a fan of the Dodgers." You could only keep that conversation going for a good 2 minutes until it gets boring.

 

[Curious George]

Over the last couple of weeks I have become very doubtful of my atheism and after weeks of dialogue with a close I finally shredded myself of the remaining remnants of my atheism. It still feels weird despite how organic my lack of belief was and my contempt for religion as a whole. To even admit my belief in a god at this very moment feels like an utter humiliation considering how secular minded I have always been and to some degree still am although with a very different interpretation.

When I was an atheist I was comfortable with myself until I felt that urge to be free and experience the beauties that religions have offered. The very minute I wanted to return to that I could not as my heart was closed to anything involving the mere conception of a god. My pragmatic attitude only developed in me having to reassure myself that I am not only an atheist but an anti-theist. My opposition to religion is still strong but at the same time I appreciate it more now.

I think it is very good to find appreciation for even things with which you disagree. Where do you see the connection between what was your atheism and what was your anti-theism?

 

[Sha'irullah]

I think it is very good to find appreciation for even things with which you disagree. Where do you see the connection between what was your atheism and what was your anti-theism?

My atheism developed after I left Islam and was afraid to use the title and favored Deism. When I finally accepted my atheism I felt temporary relief and progressed toward anti-theism because it sustained my immense hatred toward the irrationality in many religions.

You will notice in my post around 2014 that I would heavily ridicule religion and give it praise the next minute. I did this even when I was a deist oddly enough. This felt good to me because being a man of philosophy and the academic life I adopted as a teenager I could not fathom the incoherent decisions people made but I felt this was likely a result of my immaturity looking back at it.

As I got older and went to college my anti-theism was not sustainable because of a simple character trait I have. I am VERY empathetic towards people and even helped people understand various religions and religious thought. I could not sustain my anti-theism in my social life and had to drop it in my intellectual pursuits as well.

Being a person of pacifism and apathy towards life I could not care enough to oppose something either which developed into my entry of theism again.



. . . to make it short. Anti-theism was not practical for myself both intellectually and socially.

 

[Curious George]

My atheism developed after I left Islam and was afraid to use the title and favored Deism. When I finally accepted my atheism I felt temporary relief and progressed toward anti-theism because it sustained my immense hatred toward the irrationality in many religions.
.

Is it possible that your choice of atheism as oppsoed to something else was related to this immense hatred toward what you percieved as an irratuonality in many religions as well?