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Logic and the Paranormal

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
is, indeed, logical, but only as an example of ...
  • garbage in; garbage out
In Richard Carrier's fairly recent book Proving History, he argues for a particular epistemological approach that is (he proves it!) better than or equal to any other approach to history: Bayes' theorem. In one of the books he cites but seems not to have read, which is basically an argument that Bayesian reasoning is the optimal way for any person to update/re-evaluate their beliefs given what they believed before and what new information they are presented with, the author at one points gives as an example two people who are presented with the same information but who conclude opposite things because their starting beliefs differed so greatly. For Carrier, this completely defeats his entire argument, but for the purposes of this thread, it is what using "logic" means. When people refer to being logical they frequently conceptualize this in terms of rational and even in terms of "normal", at least in the sense that one typically doesn't hear paranoid schizophrenics referred to as "logical".

The problem is that logic is a reasoning process. If you believe that space aliens are trying to read your mind and tin foil hats can stop the thought rays from penetrating your skull, then it is entirely logical to wear tin foil hats. If you believe that religious thinking is poison and a danger to society than it is logical to want laws put in place to prevent the spread of religious thought. If you believe in a particular religion and that non-believers should be converted or killed, it is logical to convert or kill everyone you can.

I've used the example before, but as Kurt Gödel provides such a perfect illustration, I'll use it again. He actually had a clinical-level fear of being poisoned and would not eat food prepared by someone other than his wife. So when she was hospitalized due to illness, he died of starvation. The greatest logician in the world (and likely of all time), with a brain that then as before vastly outstripped virtually all others in terms of analytical abilities, died of starvation surrounded by easily accessible food because he reasoned, entirely logically, that given people were trying to poison him and that he could only trust his wife, he could not eat food his wife didn't prepare. And he died.

That's logic. It's great when we can use it to reason from what we hope is a pretty decent starting place about the world around us, but there's nothing illogical about any conclusion as long as particular premises are accepted. As logic cannot tell you whether a premise is true (except perhaps for premises that are necessarily true, but these don't matter for any practical purposes), it provides only a basis for reasoning, not rationality (defined as what would generally be considered within the bounds of "normal" mentality/worldview).
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
You are asking for material demonstration of the immaterial. Don't. It's better to continue to pretend only the material exists.

George-Anada wrote quite clearly:

"Also there is a semantic confusion here. I use the term paranormal sometimes in the colloquial sense (ghosts, spirit communications, etc.). But ultimately there really is no such thing as the paranormal; materialism just has an incomplete understanding of all that is ‘normal’. Even things like souls can be a part of materialism someday."

If this claim is true, then we should be able to make a material demonstration of these things. If what he says is true, and what we now consider the supernatural is just natural phenomena we don't understand yet, then their causation via ghosts or spirits, etc, should be scientifically demonstrable.

Also, it's not "pretending" if there's no evidence that anything other than the material world exists. You may continue "pretending" the world works otherwise, but I am not.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
George-Anada wrote quite clearly:

"Also there is a semantic confusion here. I use the term paranormal sometimes in the colloquial sense (ghosts, spirit communications, etc.). But ultimately there really is no such thing as the paranormal; materialism just has an incomplete understanding of all that is ‘normal’. Even things like souls can be a part of materialism someday."

If this claim is true, then we should be able to make a material demonstration of these things. If what he says is true, and what we now consider the supernatural is just natural phenomena we don't understand yet, then their causation via ghosts or spirits, etc, should be scientifically demonstrable.

Also, it's not "pretending" if there's no evidence that anything other than the material world exists. You may continue "pretending" the world works otherwise, but I am not.

One thing I think you're not considering in your above discussion is that the eastern/Vedic/Hindu view posits matter and energy that exists but is not detectable by our five senses and physical instruments. This matter is of a size and vibratory and dimensional level that is outside of anything we can test. Heck, scientists teach us that most of the matter in the universe is beyond detection by the gross physical.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
One thing I think you're not considering in your above discussion is that the eastern/Vedic/Hindu view posits matter and energy that exists but is not detectable by our five senses and physical instruments. This matter is of a size and vibratory and dimensional level that is outside of anything we can test. Heck, scientists teach us that most of the matter in the universe is beyond detection by the gross physical.
But if we cannot detect something then we cannot reasonably conclude that it even exists. Until it manifests in some form that actually produces a tangible consequence, there is no reason whatsoever to believe it, and until then you cannot make anything other than baseless claims about it. If the supernatural is, in any way, going to "become a part of materialism" then there must be some way to actually tangibly demonstrate it.

You really need to start providing sources for your claims. I'm still waiting on all these scientific tests you mentioned in your previous post.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This matter is of a size and vibratory and dimensional level that is outside of anything we can test.

Question: does this mean we can't test it now and perhaps will never be able to, but it is conceivable that we will be able to, or that it is necessarily the case we will never be able to test this matter? I understand from a scientific point of view that the answer must be the former, but as you are referring to religious/spiritual beliefs, it need not be, and so I would appreciate the clarification. Thanks.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
But if we cannot detect something then we cannot reasonably conclude that it even exists. Until it manifests in some form that actually produces a tangible consequence, there is no reason whatsoever to believe it, and until then you cannot make anything other than baseless claims about it. If the supernatural is, in any way, going to "become a part of materialism" then there must be some way to actually tangibly demonstrate it.

The existence of this type of matter was 'observed' but not through the five physical senses by great sages/masters/seers/clairvoyants/whatever of ancient India and through to modern times. The theory is we have a physical body and five koshas (sheaths) also called subtle bodies. Great masters (advanced souls) can actually observe the universe through these subtle bodies.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
The existence of this type of matter was 'observed' but not through the five physical senses by great sages/masters/seers/clairvoyants/whatever of ancient India and through to modern times. The theory is we have a physical body and five koshas (sheaths) also called subtle bodies. Great masters (advanced souls) can actually observe the universe through these subtle bodies.
I asked you for facts. When are you going to present them?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Question: does this mean we can't test it now and perhaps will never be able to, but it is conceivable that we will be able to, or that it is necessarily the case we will never be able to test this matter?

I understand from a scientific point of view that the answer must be the former, but as you are referring to religious/spiritual beliefs, it need not be, and so I would appreciate the clarification. Thanks.

I'm not sure but it's possible future physical-level technology can detect these things. It's also could be that it's impossible for gross physical instruments to detect subtle matter (it might be like trying to pick up an atom with tweezers).
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I asked you for facts. When are you going to present them?

I can present only a general overview here on a subject that millions of words have been written on and countless sages have studied.

I can only refer you to the great library of Vedic and theosophical sources on these matters.

Start on the internet by learning about the five Koshas which are the 'subtle' bodies of man.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I'm not sure but it's possible future physical-level technology can detect these things. It's also could be that it's impossible for gross physical instruments to detect subtle matter (it might be like trying to pick up an atom with tweezers).

One page ago you made the following claims:

"However for a small segment of paranormal phenomena some repeatable studies under controlled conditions can be done. I believe parapsychologists have shown repeatedly that something is going on that can’t be explained by any known phenomena."

“After a century of increasingly sophisticated investigations and more than a thousand controlled studies with combined odds against chance of 10 to the 104th power to 1, there is now strong evidence that psi phenomena exist. While this is an impressive statistic, all it means is that the outcomes of these experiments are definitely not due to coincidence. We’ve considered other common explanations like selective reporting and variations in experimental quality, and while those factors do moderate the overall results, there can be no little doubt that overall something interesting is going on. ” (quoting Dr. Dean Radin)


So you've basically gone from saying "we have tested it" to "we may be able to test it in the future". Which is it?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
One page ago you made the following claims:

"However for a small segment of paranormal phenomena some repeatable studies under controlled conditions can be done. I believe parapsychologists have shown repeatedly that something is going on that can’t be explained by any known phenomena."

“After a century of increasingly sophisticated investigations and more than a thousand controlled studies with combined odds against chance of 10 to the 104th power to 1, there is now strong evidence that psi phenomena exist. While this is an impressive statistic, all it means is that the outcomes of these experiments are definitely not due to coincidence. We’ve considered other common explanations like selective reporting and variations in experimental quality, and while those factors do moderate the overall results, there can be no little doubt that overall something interesting is going on. ” (quoting Dr. Dean Radin)


So you've basically gone from saying "we have tested it" to "we may be able to test it in the future". Which is it?

I'm saying in certain cases we can see the effect. But I never said we can see the cause. Big Difference.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not sure but it's possible future physical-level technology can detect these things. It's also could be that it's impossible for gross physical instruments to detect subtle matter (it might be like trying to pick up an atom with tweezers).
Got it. Thanks for the clarification.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
But the position of the non-believer of the paranormal must be that ALL alleged seemingly paranormal events are non-supernatural. When there’s been untold thousands/millions reported and unreported stories in the course of the existence of the human species; the chance that all are false becomes astronomically slim when I consider the quality of so many I’ve heard (the proverbial drop in the ocean I’ve heard).

Logic tells me the paranormal exists beyond reasonable doubt.

Does this make sense or do you disagree?

Think about how easily the human mind fools itself. And how easily the mind concocts explanations out of thin air.

This month's NatGeo has a little article about circles spotted all over the African savannah. The native people have considered them 'fairy rings' and given many magical explanations.

Alas... the scientists have now figured out that termites are doing it, and exactly how.

From what I've seen of life and the way I'm made, I put high odds on all such magical phenomena having natural explanations. We just haven't figured them out yet.

But even if they have 'paranormal' explanations, so what? Why should I accept your unprovable explanation over the next guy's unprovable explanation.

(Haven't read the thread. Sorry if I'm repeating stuff -- especially if the other members said it better than I have.)
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Think about how easily the human mind fools itself. And how easily the mind concocts explanations out of thin air.

I do give that serious consideration and I don’t think that can explain everything.

This month's NatGeo has a little article about circles spotted all over the African savannah. The native people have considered them 'fairy rings' and given many magical explanations.

Alas... the scientists have now figured out that termites are doing it, and exactly how.

No doubt you can find such examples.

From what I've seen of life and the way I'm made, I put high odds on all such magical phenomena having natural explanations. We just haven't figured them out yet.

We disagree. I believe that many events occur that can not reasonably be explained with ‘natural explanations’ (meaning phenomena currently accepted by mainstream science).

But even if they have 'paranormal' explanations, so what? Why should I accept your unprovable explanation over the next guy's unprovable explanation.

A wise man should consider all theories as to what is going on and form his opinion based on reason and logic. I personally believe the Vedic (Hindu) worldview is not at odds with phenomena colloquially referred to as paranormal and I believe this view to be valid beyond reasonable doubt for multiple reasons.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Paranormal by definition means anything beyond the norm. If you can provide cases in which things go differently than they should by all natrual circumstances then you have a paranormal event that should be investigated.

The premis that most people often reject is the idea that there is a supernatural explination of the events. I used to be really into the ghost hunting shows (still somewhat believe in ghosts after several personal experiences). But now I understand that even if there is evidence gathered of paranormal phenomenon it doesn't equate evidence of "ghosts" in the way that we describe them.
 
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