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Living Vs. Nonliving and Visible Vs. Invisible. Classification.

gnostic

The Lost One
Not just in science, but in all aspects of rational thinking.

Yes, true.

Nothing is “true by default”, including in rational thinking.

If you look to different philosophies there are all sorts of views regarding to rational and logical thinking, some showing different techniques or processes to arrive at “rational” conclusion.

Some have more merits than other.

But people being “people”, and philosophers being “people”, they will defend their favorite schools of thought against those that might disagree with their views. They will demand their way of thinking to be the “right one” and ought to be accepted by default.

So how would one judge which philosophy, or which view, is the right one - the “rational” one - for everyone?

Philosophers can be as egoistic as anyone else, to the point of them being biased and unreasonable in defending their philosophies or their ideology.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Your example (what I highlighted in bold), is making assumptions that everything you believe in “to be true, by default”.

But this is how we all live our daily lifes, we all trust our experiences, and intuition until proven wrong. (this is how science works too)

That’s the opposite as to what people do in science.

In Natural Science, no new models (eg hypotheses) are ever considered “true by default”.
. Perhaps not, but scientists assume their intuition and experience as true by default, unless proven otherwise.

For example scientists assume that they are awake and not dreaming, the assume that their memories are true, they assume that their brains interpret the evidence accurately etc..... Non of this is ever proven, they simply trust their intuition.

Any model - new model (hypothesis) or existing model (scientific theory) must be tested first, before it can be considered true. None of them are accepted by default.

Sure you can always test for the reliability of your intuitions and experience. And if the evidence suggest that yoir intuition is wrong then you most drop it.

My point is that unless proven otherwise, its rational to trust your intuitions and experience as reliable sources of knowledge.... Any disagreement from your part?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I.

But it is working hypothesis, since biochemists are still performing various experiments and over the decades made some discoveries. These evidence make Abiogenesis at least falsifiable and testable, and that much is in Abiogenesis favour.

.
Really and what kind of resoult in experiments would falsify abiogenesis? What kind of resoult (data) would you need to see in order to conclude Inteligent design?
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
Really and what kind of resoult in experiments would falsify abiogenesis? What kind of resoult (data) would you need to see in order to conclude Inteligent design?
Intelligent Design is not a verifiable scientific hypothesis, it is a metaphysical model of the Cosmos.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Intelligent Design is not a verifiable scientific hypothesis, it is a metaphysical model of the Cosmos.
Why not? Why is ID not verifiable? Scientis conclude ID all the time in archelogy, forensic science, computer science etc...

It seems to me that you are making an arbitrary exception when a design hypothesis has theological implications that you personally dont like.
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
So you think you have a testable hypothesis?


Okay, then. Can you show me existing examples of work by a known omnipotent, omniscient Intelligence, so that we can compare it to Earth's entire history and see if they are similar?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
So you think you have a testable hypothesis?


Okay, then. Can you show me existing examples of work by a known omnipotent, omniscient Intelligence, so that we can compare it to Earth's entire history and see if they are similar?
You made the statement that ID is not verifiable..... I am simply asking why not?
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
You made the statement that ID is not verifiable..... I am simply asking why not?
Because it is only a functional hypothesis if we already accept that an omniscient, omnipotent Intelligence exists and has arranged evolution (or Earth, or the solar system, or the universe) for its own purpose. But that omniscient, omnipotent Intelligence is what your hypothesis is actually set out to prove, so we cannot assume it to be true.

If we cannot assume it true, however, then we run into the problem that we have never observed an omniscient, omnipotent Intelligence, and so cannot actually know when, where and how to observe it. And we cannot compare intelligently designed evolution to a different evolution that has not been intelligently designed (like an archaeologist would compare a burial mound to, say, a naturally occurring hill in the same region). We can only make assumptions one way or another.

That is why I asked you to show me examples of an omniscient, omnipotent Intelligence. If you did not know whether such a thing existed, then how would you know how to look for it? What undirected, unintelligent process would you compare an arranged evolution to?

If you cannot answer these questions, then you are stuck trying to prove the very claims that your hypothesis is based on.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Because it is only a functional hypothesis if we already accept that an omniscient, omnipotent Intelligence exists and has arranged evolution (or Earth, or the solar system, or the universe) for its own purpose. But that omniscient, omnipotent Intelligence is what your hypothesis is actually set out to prove, so we cannot assume it to be true.

If we cannot assume it true, however, then we run into the problem that we have never observed an omniscient, omnipotent Intelligence, and so cannot actually know when, where and how to observe it. And we cannot compare intelligently designed evolution to a different evolution that has not been intelligently designed (like an archaeologist would compare a burial mound to, say, a naturally occurring hill in the same region). We can only make assumptions one way or another.

That is why I asked you to show me examples of an omniscient, omnipotent Intelligence. If you did not know whether such a thing existed, then how would you know how to look for it? What undirected, unintelligent process would you compare an arranged evolution to?

If you cannot answer these questions, then you are stuck trying to prove the very claims that your hypothesis is based on.


It seems to me that in short, what you are saying is:

Because nobody has ever seen (or shown) an omnipotent omniscient intelligence creating life / the universes etc you cant stablish it as the cause of life or the universe

Or in general terms
You cant stablish that X is the cause of Y if you cant show an X creating a Y


Is this a fair representation of your view?

Do you have anything to add?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Really and what kind of resoult in experiments would falsify abiogenesis?
You really are behind time with news about Abiogenesis.

And you still don’t understand what the word falsifiability

Some experiments have already been done with Abiogenesis, so Abiogenesis is already a falsifiable hypothesis.

And it is a hypothesis that they are still testing, hence it is work-in-progress falsifiable model.

Different experiments have been done for decades, since the earliest experiment in 1952 the Miller-Urey experiment.

We already know that the earliest organisms were bacteria in which some species can exist without oxygen in the early atmosphere.

But Abiogenesis isn’t just a model about creating life; it is also about creating organic matters from inorganic matters, through chemical reactions. Organic matters, like biological molecules, like proteins, nucleic acids and carbohydrates.

These molecules or compounds are present in all cells, tissues and muscles. Life cannot exist until these biological compounds formed first in the earliest cells.

Proteins are made out of amino acids. There are over 500 different types of amino acids, but only 23 types exist in different types of proteins.

In the Miller-Urey experiment, they used inorganic compounds, like water (H2O), ammonia (NH3), methane (CH4) and hydrogen gas (H2), and used heat and electric spark to mimic lightning strike that would start off chemical reactions in these inorganic chemicals.

The chemicals used were to mimic Earth’s early environment, including atmosphere with no free oxygen gas, hence pre-biotic environments.

The end results of this experiment, 11 amino acids were formed.

Instead of throwing away these test results they stored them away in sealed vials, and didn’t look at them until Stanley Miller died in 2007.

Upon examination of these vials 9 more amino acids have formed during storage, bringing a total of 20 of 23 proteinogenic amino acids.

Stanley Miller’s student, Jeffrey Bada, also performed a similar experiment. But added nitrogen gas (N2) and carbon dioxide (CO2) that would have be present in early Earth pre-biotic atmosphere, as well as iron and carbonate minerals that would exist on Earth’s crust, to produce amino acids.

The 1961 experiment by Joan Oró, managed to create adenine, which is biological part of nucleobase, and nucleobase is one of the important components in nucleic acids (nucleic acids, eg RNA & DNA). Adenine was chemically formed from inorganic compounds hydrogen cyanide (HCN) with ammonia and water.

Then there is amino acid evidence discovered in some large pieces of meteorite that crashed near the town of Murchison, Victoria, Australia in 1969. Over 100 amino acids, of which 19 were proteinogenic.

And amino acids weren’t the only organic compounds found in this meteorite. There were also hydrocarbon (oils), carboxylic acids and more.

The indication that organic matters can exist space, on meteorites, asteroids or comets, provide a different probability that the source to life on Earth, may have been kickstarted when these objects crashed on young Earth about 4 billion years ago.

There are at least 3 different models (versions) to Abiogenesis that I know of, being investigated by biochemists, including the extraterrestrial source. The others are pond scenario and hydrothermal vent scenario.

All 3 models of Abiogenesis are falsifiable, but they don’t know (yet), which of these are most likely model that started life on Earth.

I am not a biochemist or biologist, but even I can understand that before cells can exist, these biological molecules must exist first, so that’s why they are starting experiments to create biological molecules from inorganic chemicals, to mimic Earth’s early conditions before there oxygen in the atmosphere.

Please learn what falsifiable actually mean, because you still making the same mistakes repeatedly since you had joined RF. Stubborn ignorance isn’t a virtue.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
It seems to me that in short, what you are saying is:

Because nobody has ever seen (or shown) an omnipotent omniscient intelligence creating life / the universes etc you cant stablish it as the cause of life or the universe

Or in general terms
You cant stablish that X is the cause of Y if you cant show an X creating a Y


Is this a fair representation of your view?

Do you have anything to add?
So far, the only evidence for god is the transmission of ancient human imaginations on texts, which are bunch of superstitions and hearsay, by people who had little understanding about nature.

“God did it” is a claim, not evidence.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
You really are behind time with news about Abiogenesis.

And you still don’t understand what the word falsifiability

Some experiments have already been done with Abiogenesis, so Abiogenesis is already a falsifiable hypothesis.

And it is a hypothesis that they are still testing, hence it is work-in-progress falsifiable model.

Different experiments have been done for decades, since the earliest experiment in 1952 the Miller-Urey experiment.

We already know that the earliest organisms were bacteria in which some species can exist without oxygen in the early atmosphere.

But Abiogenesis isn’t just a model about creating life; it is also about creating organic matters from inorganic matters, through chemical reactions. Organic matters, like biological molecules, like proteins, nucleic acids and carbohydrates.

These molecules or compounds are present in all cells, tissues and muscles. Life cannot exist until these biological compounds formed first in the earliest cells.

Proteins are made out of amino acids. There are over 500 different types of amino acids, but only 23 types exist in different types of proteins.

In the Miller-Urey experiment, they used inorganic compounds, like water (H2O), ammonia (NH3), methane (CH4) and hydrogen gas (H2), and used heat and electric spark to mimic lightning strike that would start off chemical reactions in these inorganic chemicals.

The chemicals used were to mimic Earth’s early environment, including atmosphere with no free oxygen gas, hence pre-biotic environments.

The end results of this experiment, 11 amino acids were formed.

Instead of throwing away these test results they stored them away in sealed vials, and didn’t look at them until Stanley Miller died in 2007.

Upon examination of these vials 9 more amino acids have formed during storage, bringing a total of 20 of 23 proteinogenic amino acids.

Stanley Miller’s student, Jeffrey Bada, also performed a similar experiment. But added nitrogen gas (N2) and carbon dioxide (CO2) that would have be present in early Earth pre-biotic atmosphere, as well as iron and carbonate minerals that would exist on Earth’s crust, to produce amino acids.

The 1961 experiment by Joan Oró, managed to create adenine, which is biological part of nucleobase, and nucleobase is one of the important components in nucleic acids (nucleic acids, eg RNA & DNA). Adenine was chemically formed from inorganic compounds hydrogen cyanide (HCN) with ammonia and water.

Then there is amino acid evidence discovered in some large pieces of meteorite that crashed near the town of Murchison, Victoria, Australia in 1969. Over 100 amino acids, of which 19 were proteinogenic.

And amino acids weren’t the only organic compounds found in this meteorite. There were also hydrocarbon (oils), carboxylic acids and more.

The indication that organic matters can exist space, on meteorites, asteroids or comets, provide a different probability that the source to life on Earth, may have been kickstarted when these objects crashed on young Earth about 4 billion years ago.

There are at least 3 different models (versions) to Abiogenesis that I know of, being investigated by biochemists, including the extraterrestrial source. The others are pond scenario and hydrothermal vent scenario.

All 3 models of Abiogenesis are falsifiable, but they don’t know (yet), which of these are most likely model that started life on Earth.

I am not a biochemist or biologist, but even I can understand that before cells can exist, these biological molecules must exist first, so that’s why they are starting experiments to create biological molecules from inorganic chemicals, to mimic Earth’s early conditions before there oxygen in the atmosphere.

Please learn what falsifiable actually mean, because you still making the same mistakes repeatedly since you had joined RF. Stubborn ignorance isn’t a virtue.

Thanks for providing all that information...... But i asked q very sinole question that you failed to answer....

What observation/resoult/experiment/data do you need to see in order to drop your "nature did it hypothesis"?......... Or atleast what would plant a reasonable doubt?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
So far, the only evidence for god is the transmission of ancient human imaginations on texts, which are bunch of superstitions and hearsay, by people who had little understanding about nature.

“God did it” is a claim, not evidence.
What is the point of quoting a comment if you are not going to say anythibg relevabt related to that comment?

The question that I asked to @Tambourine (and you can also answer if you whant) is:

You cant stablish that X is the cause of Y if you cant show an X creating a Y


Is this a fair representation of your view?
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
It seems to me that in short, what you are saying is:

Because nobody has ever seen (or shown) an omnipotent omniscient intelligence creating life / the universes etc you cant stablish it as the cause of life or the universe

Or in general terms
You cant stablish that X is the cause of Y if you cant show an X creating a Y


Is this a fair representation of your view?

Do you have anything to add?
My argument is that when treating ID as a scientific hypothesis (as opposed to a particular position in a discussion on metaphysics) you run into a threefold problem:

1. You cannot use "There is an omnipotent omniscient intelligence creating life / the universes etc" as a premise for your scientific hypothesis, when the expected conclusion of the same hypothesis is supposed to be "therefore, an omnipotent omniscient intelligence has created life / the universe etc." because that would just be a form of circular reasoning.

2. An omnipotent omniscient intelligence is not an observed and verified phenomenon, so you cannot use it to explain existing natural phenomena unless and until you have verified its existence. So even if the hypothesis wasn't circular, it would rest on an unproven premise.

3. At the empirical level, we cannot compare our own universe/life/evolution to a guided/intelligently designed one in order to make empirical claims about intelligent design, as we would in the case of human archeology, forensics, etc.
So even if the hypothesis wasn't circular and didn't rest on an unproven premise, it could not be conclusively tested and verified against competing hypotheses.

If we treat ID as a metaphysical stance rather than a scientific hypothesis, we at least don't have to contend with Problem 3.
Problem 1 and 2 would still remain an issue for people who do not believe in a monotheistic God, of course.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
My argument is that when treating ID as a scientific hypothesis (as opposed to a particular position in a discussion on metaphysics) you run into a threefold problem:



.

If we treat ID as a metaphysical stance rather than a scientific hypothesis, we at least don't have to contend with Problem 3.
Problem 1 and 2 would still remain an issue for people who do not believe in a monotheistic God, of course.

Ok but I think those problems can be solved by simply reformulating the argument.

*In the context if this thread (origin of life) we dont need an omnipotent omnipresent etc God..... All we need is an inteligent designer Alien or God that predates life and that has the hability to create life.

1. You cannot use "There is an omnipotent omniscient intelligence creating life / the universes etc" as a premise for your scientific hypothesis, when the expected conclusion of the same hypothesis is supposed to be "therefore, an omnipotent omniscient intelligence has created life / the universe etc." because that would just be a form of circular reasoning.

Granted so all i have to do is formulate the argument such that i can avoid circular reasoning


1 If something has" X" it was designed

2 life has "X"

Therefore life was designed

So no circular reasoning in this argument agreee?

2. An omnipotent omniscient intelligence is not an observed and verified phenomenon, so you cannot use it to explain existing natural phenomena unless and until you have verified its existence. So even if the hypothesis wasn't circular, it would rest on an unproven premise.
Really? So if you go to an other planet and find things like pottery, tools, art, etc would you reject the idea that Aliens did it because the existance of Aliens has not been stablished?....... You wouldn't even grant the posdibility that maybe Aliens did it, even if the existance of aliens has not been proven a priory?

Besides, I can also reject naturalusm under the same basis,....... Since "a natural mechanism that can create life" is not a verified phenomenon ether


3. At the empirical level, we cannot compare our own universe/life/evolution to a guided/intelligently designed one in order to make empirical claims about intelligent design, as we would in the case of human archeology, forensics, etc.
So even if the hypothesis wasn't circular and didn't rest on an unproven premise, it could not be conclusively tested and verified against competing hypotheses

Why not?..... One can look at things that are known to be designed, identify the traits that makit evident that they where designed and then apply that knowledge with things that "we dont know if they where designed"

This is analogous to a Doctor studying a disease that he has never seen bebore..... He can use his prior knowledge on say bacterial infections, and then determine if this new dissiese is likelly to be caused by bacteria or not........ Why isent this method empirical?

The method
1 look at things with known origin, things that where designed and things that are not designed

2 identify the traits that are present in some designed stuff abd that are completely absent in stuff that is not designed

3 look for those traits in stuff with unknown origin, if it has the traits, then you can infer design with confidence unless new aditional evidence to the contrary is presented


Again why isent this empirical? This is a simple and widely accepted form of inductive reasoning, this is the same kind of reasoning that we use to conclude that
Wood comes from trees.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Thanks for providing all that information...... But i asked q very sinole question that you failed to answer....

What observation/resoult/experiment/data do you need to see in order to drop your "nature did it hypothesis"?......... Or atleast what would plant a reasonable doubt?
I did give you the answer, I even gave you information about tests that have already being done that demonstrate that Abiogenesis is falsifiable.

And you are clueless as to what FALSIFIABLE mean.

If a hypothesis, is testable than it is falsifiable.

But if there are already evidence available or if lab tests/experiments have already been done, as it in the case with Abiogenesis, then Abiogenesis is not only falsifiable, it have already undergone tests.

I am not going to give you more examples that Abiogenesis have been falsified.

The present of organic matters in the Murchison Meteorite, and the 3 tests that have the Miller-Urey experiment, Jeffrey Bada’s experiment, Joan Oró’s experiment, all show inorganic matters can chemically convert (chemical reaction) into biological matters. They all points to Abiogenesis being falsifiable.

Abiogenesis is not science yet, but there are already evidence that points to some probabilities of the origin of how biological molecules could have formed.

As to Intelligent Design, the Designer itself is unfalsifiable, therefore untestable.

And all adherents do, is make assumptions that the Designer exist, but leave out how one would observe the Designer, measure the Designer or test the Designer.

So since, the Designer is essential to Intelligent Design belief, but the Designer is untestable, then on that basis, Intelligent Design is “unfalsifiable”. What this mean is that ID would even qualify as being a “hypothesis”.

That ‘s embarrassing.

Even the 1948’s Steady State model - a rival and alternative to the Big Bang model - was a falsifiable hypothesis. It may have been debunked in 1964 with the discovery of CMBR, it was at least falsifiable and hypothesis. Intelligent Design isn’t falsifiable and isn’t a hypothesis.
 

Tambourine

Well-Known Member
Ok but I think those problems can be solved by simply reformulating the argument.

*In the context if this thread (origin of life) we dont need an omnipotent omnipresent etc God..... All we need is an inteligent designer Alien or God that predates life and that has the hability to create life.
It doesn't really matter what you call this entity or what powers you ascribe to it, this doesn't change that we haven't observed it and therefore cannot prove that it exists, so Problem 1 and 2 would persist regardless. You need a phenomenon that you know for a fact exists for this argument to be valid.

As a hypothesis, Intelligent Design is only functional if you already believe that it is true, which is why it cannot be persuasive as a scientific hypothesis.



Granted so all i have to do is formulate the argument such that i can avoid circular reasoning


1 If something has" X" it was designed

2 life has "X"

Therefore life was designed

So no circular reasoning in this argument agreee?
No circular reasoning, but you are going to run into the problem of plausibility vs. logical necessity.

If any given feature of an object that is clearly designed exists in a living creature, it can appear plausible to assume that it was designed, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

A crude (and purposefully absurdly worded) example:
A. Feathered pillows are designed and have the feature of "feathered".
B. Ducks have feathers.
A->B. Therefore, ducks are designed.

Can you see the problem here? The predicate of "feathered" exists for both, but is it really a necessary feature of a designed object to be feathered? Probably not.

Really? So if you go to an other planet and find things like pottery, tools, art, etc would you reject the idea that Aliens did it because the existance of Aliens has not been stablished?....... You wouldn't even grant the posdibility that maybe Aliens did it, even if the existance of aliens has not been proven a priory?
This is an interesting point that deserves to be adressed properly, but I don't think it is directly relevant to the point I've been making. I will try and respond to this in depth later on if you don't mind.

Besides, I can also reject naturalusm under the same basis,....... Since "a natural mechanism that can create life" is not a verified phenomenon ether
But a natural mechanism is not a distinct entity. For example no respectable scientist would say "evolution created life" or "nature created life", because evolution is not an entity that can act, and nature is an abstract term for the physical world that does not exist apart from life as such.

When scientists talk about e.g. evolution, they talk about a general term for the complex interrelation of the observed natural processes of mutation, speciazation, natural selection, and so on. They are not describing a distinct entity that acts on these processes, they are simply describing the processes themselves.

Why not?..... One can look at things that are known to be designed, identify the traits that makit evident that they where designed and then apply that knowledge with things that "we dont know if they where designed"
But literally every single thing we know for a fact to be designed, has been designed by human beings. And we know for a fact that humans can't design entire species from scratch*, let alone life itself, a planet, an entire solar system, or even a galaxy. Which seems to make the conclusion to this question very obvious, don't you think?

Which brings us back to Problem 1: In order to be able to conclude that any of these phenomena I just mentioned were designed, we need to assume the existence of an entity (or group of entities) capable of designing these things in the first place.

And I recognize that, for a theist, and especially for a follower of one of the Abrahamic religions, this is not a conceptual leap: They already assume the existence of an entity that can do all of these things, after all. But God is not observable by normal humans, now are they?

Which is the crux of the problem ID is always going to struggle with, if you treat it as a scientific hypothesis: A scientific hypothesis needs to be based on premises that are either empirically verifiable (such as, say, the fact that humans can create pottery or housing) or axiomatically true (such as mathematical proofs). Unfortunately, neither of these two apply to the Abrahamic God - or Alien Astronauts, for that matter.

*(Note that I said "from scratch" on purpose; I know that humans domesticated a wide range of animal species, but those species already existed in some form in the wild, and were not genetically "designed" ex nihilo)

This is analogous to a Doctor studying a disease that he has never seen bebore..... He can use his prior knowledge on say bacterial infections, and then determine if this new dissiese is likelly to be caused by bacteria or not........ Why isent this method empirical?

The method
1 look at things with known origin, things that where designed and things that are not designed

2 identify the traits that are present in some designed stuff abd that are completely absent in stuff that is not designed

3 look for those traits in stuff with unknown origin, if it has the traits, then you can infer design with confidence unless new aditional evidence to the contrary is presented
Which brings us back to what I asked for in post #226:
Okay, then. Can you show me existing examples of work by a known omnipotent, omniscient Intelligence, so that we can compare it to Earth's entire history and see if they are similar?

Also please note that all if this applies if, and only if, we treat ID as a scientific hypothesis. Metaphysics and philosophy are a different matter entirely, since they do not need to recur on empirical observations, in principle.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I did give you the answer, I even gave you information about tests that have already being done that demonstrate that Abiogenesis is falsifiable.

And you are clueless as to what FALSIFIABLE mean.

If a hypothesis, is testable than it is falsifiable.

But if there are already evidence available or if lab tests/experiments have already been done, as it in the case with Abiogenesis, then Abiogenesis is not only falsifiable, it have already undergone tests.

I am not going to give you more examples that Abiogenesis have been falsified.

The present of organic matters in the Murchison Meteorite, and the 3 tests that have the Miller-Urey experiment, Jeffrey Bada’s experiment, Joan Oró’s experiment, all show inorganic matters can chemically convert (chemical reaction) into biological matters. They all points to Abiogenesis being falsifiable.

Abiogenesis is not science yet, but there are already evidence that points to some probabilities of the origin of how biological molecules could have formed.

As to Intelligent Design, the Designer itself is unfalsifiable, therefore untestable.

And all adherents do, is make assumptions that the Designer exist, but leave out how one would observe the Designer, measure the Designer or test the Designer.

So since, the Designer is essential to Intelligent Design belief, but the Designer is untestable, then on that basis, Intelligent Design is “unfalsifiable”. What this mean is that ID would even qualify as being a “hypothesis”.

That ‘s embarrassing.

Even the 1948’s Steady State model - a rival and alternative to the Big Bang model - was a falsifiable hypothesis. It may have been debunked in 1964 with the discovery of CMBR, it was at least falsifiable and hypothesis. Intelligent Design isn’t falsifiable and isn’t a hypothesis.


Sure specific hypothesis of abiogenesis are falsifiable and many have been falsified. My question is how can the claim “nature did it” be falsified? What observation / experiment / data do you need to see in order to conclude that “Nature did it” is not the best explanation?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
No circular reasoning, but you are going to run into the problem of plausibility vs. logical necessity.

If any given feature of an object that is clearly designed exists in a living creature, it can appear plausible to assume that it was designed, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

A crude (and purposefully absurdly worded) example:
A. Feathered pillows are designed and have the feature of "feathered".
B. Ducks have feathers.
A->B. Therefore, ducks are designed.

Sure my intent was to show that the argument is not circularand respond to that specific objection………additional argumentation would be required to avoid a weeks arguments or fallacies (as in your example of pillows and ducks)


Can you see the problem here? The predicate of "feathered" exists for both, but is it really a necessary feature of a designed object to be feathered? Probably not.
I would argue that design is a necessary feature things that have the attribute of specified complexity.

Premise 1 Specified complexity can only be caused by design

Premise 2 Life has the attribute of specified complexity (I am talking about the first living thing)

Therefore life was design


So before focusing on details, would you agree that the argument is logically valid? Would you agree that it is verifiable and falsifiable (at least in principle) if not why not?



This is an interesting point that deserves to be adressed properly, but I don't think it is directly relevant to the point I've been making. I will try and respond to this in depth later on if you don't mind.

I think the point on aliens is relevant, so I would like you address it.

If you find art work, pottery, tools etc. in other planets ….would you say that the “Aliens did it hypothesis” is valid or would you reject it because no nobody has seen the aliens?


But a natural mechanism is not a distinct entity. For example no respectable scientist would say "evolution created life" or "nature created life", because evolution is not an entity that can act, and nature is an abstract term for the physical world that does not exist apart from life as such.

Well you believe that life was caused by chemical reactions right?............. why can’t I argue “nodody has seen chemical reactions capable of creating life, therefore I reject your hypothesis”……………in the same way you are arguing “nobody has seen intelligent designers capable of creating life, therefore you reject the hypothesis”? is there a relevant difference between these 2 claims? Why would you accept one and reject the other?



But literally every single thing we know for a fact to be designed, has been designed by human beings. And we know for a fact that humans can't design entire species from scratch*
,

Sure but the existence of intelligent beings that are more intelligent than humans doesn’t seem to be impossible……..so why rejecting that possibility by default?



Which brings us back to Problem 1: In order to be able to conclude that any of these phenomena I just mentioned were designed, we need to assume the existence of an entity (or group of entities) capable of designing these things in the first place.

this is important :

I think you are wrong, I don’t have to prove that such intelligence exists, showing that the existence of such a being is possible is enough to consider it as a possible hypothesis. And I thing that we can both agree that the existence of an intelligence capable of creating life is not impossible.

do you agree with the stuff in green letters.......if not why not?
I think the green part represent the core of our disagreement which is why I think is relevant and deserves to be addressed directly



For example nobody has seen a Neanderthal creating an artifact, but given that it is atleast possible that Neantherthals could have had that ability……. We can consider neantherthals as a possible cause for some artifacts especially those that predate humans,


And I recognize that, for a theist, and especially for a follower of one of the Abrahamic religions, this is not a conceptual leap: They already assume the existence of an entity that can do all of these things, after all. But God is not observable by normal humans, now are they?

The only necessary assumption is that the existence of such a being is possible, so unless you provide an argument that shows that its existence is impossible (or very unlikely) I think the assumption is valid. …… SO in other words, only “strong atheist” would reject that assumption, agnostics and week atheists should also grant this assumption.

Not to mention that we don’t need an Abrahamic God, to create life, an intelligent alien is enough……..so would you argue that the existence of both intelligent aliens and God is impossible?



Which is the crux of the problem ID is always going to struggle with, if you treat it as a scientific hypothesis: A scientific hypothesis needs to be based on premises that are either empirically verifiable (such as, say, the fact that humans can create pottery or housing) or axiomatically true (such as mathematical proofs). Unfortunately, neither of these two apply to the Abrahamic God - or Alien Astronauts, for that matter.

Well the argument above with orange letters is verifiable testable and falsifiable, so “problem solved”


At most you can argue that we don’t have enough knowledge / technology to test the premises with certainty, but at least in principle the argument is verifiable., and can be explored using the scientific method.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
Sure specific hypothesis of abiogenesis are falsifiable and many have been falsified.
Chemical reactions are natural processes whether it be inorganic or organic.

Understanding how biological molecules and compound works in cells, will help scientists to figure out what probabilities that such possible of how occurrence could happen - the change from inorganic to organic.

It is not magic, and it doesn’t require imaginary being like this modern mythological Designer that you are so insistent in bringing up, that don’t exist except through unsubstantiated conjectures.

That all ID followers do, make whole bunch of conjectures about Designer without once provide a single piece of evidence of its existence.

How is this Designer any better than Genesis myth of the Creator or fairytale of fairies and pixies? All of these are unfalsifiable, including the ID myth.

So if Designer unfalsifiable then so is Intelligent Design.
 
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