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Living Vs. Nonliving and Visible Vs. Invisible. Classification.

leroy

Well-Known Member
But like Valjean said, intuition is overrated in any case. And you to remember, that humans being human, any conclusion derived from intuition, are not infallible or inerrant. People can still make mistakes using intuition.
Like Intuition, science is also fallible, so while intuition is not a perfect source of knowledge, it is a good source of knowledge.

For example if the evidence for a proposition is 50% 50% your would be rational in accepting what your intuition tells you.

For example if I show you a reliable poll that says that 50% of woman cheat on their husbands……. But your intuition tells you that she really loves you and that she wouldn’t cheat on you……you would be justified in trusting your intuition and assuming that she is not cheating on you.

In the context of God, if you feel that there are equally good arguments for theism and for atheism, but you intuition tells you that God Exists , it would be rational to be a theist…agree?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well human behavior is unpredictable and chaotic…… is this evidence for God?......is this evidence that we were created by God?

It seems to me that you are saying that if Mars would have had a chaotic and unpredictable orbit, you would interpret that as evidence for God (or evidence against naturalism)…. If this is an accurate representation of your argument, I would ask you… what about all the things of the universe that are unpredictable like human behaivor? Do they represent evidence for God?

If this is not an accurate representation of your view, please provide more detail. …….

Its hard to me to understand your conclusion……. How do you go from “mars has a predictable orbt” to “therefore God doesn’t exists”? there are obviously some missing steps in your argument, so which steps are those?


Obviously that statement is wrong, many things in the macro scale are unpredictable
Religion posits miracles, ie: magic. These are intentional acts that can only be achieved through an alteration of natural laws and constants. Living things are poofed into existence, water turns to wine, the dead are raised, people walk on water or turn to pillars of salt, the Sun, Earth, or moon "stands still." Nothing like this is ever observed today, nor would it be believed if it were reported, at least without extensive verification.

There are magical origin myths and tales of miracles from all over the world. All are hearsay. They disagree or contradict each other. None are repeatable. None are ever observed today. It would seem the world was full of magic at one time -- but not today.
Today the world is orderly and things behave predictably.
No I'm not talking about complex, multifactoral things like human behavior. I'm talking about a 1Kg stone remaining a 1Kg stone, not turning to wood and falling at a predictable rate if dropped. If these happened, or if Mars began behaving erratically, science would rush to figure out why. The religious, I assume, would point to the whim of God.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Could be but it is not what should be called a fact. It is an opinion.
How much evidnce is required to turn opinion into knowledge?
People have been able to find out things about the natural world for thousands of years. So? At the moment and with the hubris of some, many are saying we know so much that God is not necessary or if God did it we certainly would know.
And people have believed all sorts of ridiculous things about the world for thousands of years.They believed in magic, and did not test their hypotheses. It wasn't until the scientific method was adopted that we got trains, planes and computers.
People don't say we know so much that God (magic) is not necessary. People say God's unnecessary because natural, unintentional mechanisms have been found to account for phenomena that were previously used for god-evidence.
"God did not do it" explanation is fine for scientific research but it is merely a belief because you cannot observe, measure or test God.
"God did not do it" is not an explanation. An actual, observable, testable, repeatable mechanism is an explanation.
God has not been proven nor disproved and the more evidence I see the more science is showing that the Bible is correct imo. The "no God" hypothesis has not been proven nor disproved, it is a belief based on lack of scientific evidence for some even though science cannot observe, measure or test God.
"No god" is not a hypothesis. It's the epistemic default, a blank slate.
If, as you say, God can't be observed, measured or tested, what grounds do we have to believe he exists?
The existence of God is an extraordinary claim. The burden of proof lies with the claimants. Disbelief in something unevidenced and unobservable is the logical starting point.
In the scientific method Gods etc can complicate things-----sounds true to me.
Not following. "Gods can complicate things?" Do you mean actual, mischievous gods tweaking results, or the concept of god?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I can understand looking for DNA when looking for life in the universe. I think what made my brain run to the watchmaker argument is because the researcher on the show said that only life could build DNA.
That I guess is fair enough in science and in that type of show to say that but it seems to me that if anything is actually going to build DNA, a complex code language and system that governs so much in life forms, it would be an intelligent being.
But nucleic acids aren't that hard to build. They occur naturally, and the mechanism by which RNA sequences coding for useful features are replicated, while those coding for useless features are not, is well known.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Like Intuition, science is also fallible, so while intuition is not a perfect source of knowledge, it is a good source of knowledge.
It's a good source only in the context for which it evolved -- life in a hunter-gatherer. Fast, 'stage one' thinking is really useful for making quick decisions without evidence, but as an analytic tool it's useless, as history has shown.
For example if the evidence for a proposition is 50% 50% your would be rational in accepting what your intuition tells you.
If the evidence is 50-50, no rational decision is possible.
For example if I show you a reliable poll that says that 50% of woman cheat on their husbands……. But your intuition tells you that she really loves you and that she wouldn’t cheat on you……you would be justified in trusting your intuition and assuming that she is not cheating on you.
In this case you have specific knowledge about a specific person. It's not a 50-50 decision.
In the context of God, if you feel that there are equally good arguments for theism and for atheism, but you intuition tells you that God Exists , it would be rational to be a theist…agree?
But there are not equally good arguments. One side is a logical default. The only supporting evidence it can muster is a false dichotomy error.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Religion posits miracles, ie: magic. These are intentional acts that can only be achieved through an alteration of natural laws and constants. Living things are poofed into existence, water turns to wine, the dead are raised, people walk on water or turn to pillars of salt, the Sun, Earth, or moon "stands still." Nothing like this is ever observed today, nor would it be believed if it were reported, at least without extensive verification.

There are magical origin myths and tales of miracles from all over the world. All are hearsay. They disagree or contradict each other. None are repeatable. None are ever observed today. It would seem the world was full of magic at one time -- but not today.
Today the world is orderly and things behave predictably.
No I'm not talking about complex, multifactoral things like human behavior. I'm talking about a 1Kg stone remaining a 1Kg stone, not turning to wood and falling at a predictable rate if dropped. If these happened, or if Mars began behaving erratically, science would rush to figure out why. The religious, I assume, would point to the whim of God.

And how would you tell the difference between magic and “an unknown natural mechanism”

No I'm not talking about complex, multifactoral things like human behavior.
Well if the orbit of Mars would have been unpredictable you would simply say that the orbit is complex and multifactoral , but you wouldn’t claim “magic” would you?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
It's a good source onlthe context for which it evolved -- life in a hunter-gatherer. Fast, 'stage one' thinking is really useful for making quick decisions without evidence, but as an analytic tool it's useless, as history has shown.

My intuition tells me that there is a physical world around me and that I am not just a bolzmann brain, under the illusion of being a real person living in a planet…… is it reasonable to trust my intuition?


In this case you have specific knowledge about a specific person. It's not a 50-50 decision.

Well the assumption is that the probabilities are 50% 50% t objectively speaking, there nothing “special” about your wife that makes her less likely to cheat on you…… in case I would argue that you can trust your intuition and that it would be rational to assume by all practical purposes that she is not cheating on you



But there are not equally good arguments. One side is a logical default. The only supporting evidence it can muster is a false dichotomy error.
Granted, if you have good and conclusive arguments for naturalism, you would be rational in rejecting the existence of God even if your intuition tells you otherwise.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It's not my field to define life but when I say life I am probably usually thinking of consciousness.
Wouldn't that exclude most living things? Doesn't consciousness exist on on a spectrum? If there's a hierarchy, where do you draw the line? Is my cat conscious? Is a frog, a begonia?

I experience my own qualia, but my assessment of qualia in others must needs be guesswork. I can't experience the world of a bat.
I'm probably arguing from incredulity concerning all that chemistry actually in the end producing a living being all by itself.
No doubt you are arguing from incredulity when you call the creator option Magic
Not really. I call it magic because it conforms to the definition of magic: effect without cause or mechanism.
I don't know how God did it and guided chemistry could have been a big part of it. (making the conditions right for the chemistry to proceed in the right direction etc) You don't know what happened and the only option you have is blind chemistry. (time and chance) No intelligence needed there for such a fantastic end product
Fair enough, but now you've just retreated a step and proposed a guided chemistry. There is no evidence either for magic poofing or guided chemistry.
A fantastic end product? I doubt the first self replicating blob was all that fantastic, but, once created, the mechanisms that could evolve it into a fantastic archaean or bacterium are already known.
In science abiogenesis is fine and in atheism it is probably a necessity. People do ignore the evidence for magic given in Biblical history however.
In scientific research atheism or theism is irrelevant, as long as the proper procedures are followed. As a worldview, however, it does seem strange that a scientist used to following the evidence, or basing decisions on evidence, should believe in something quite unevidenced.
That sounds like magic to me, that dead matter became aware.
It was live matter that became aware, and yes, it does sound magical. Consciousness remains largely a mystery. But keep in mind that almost everything we know about the world today was once a mystery, as well.
NDEs do give evidence for spirit however, even spirit with consciousness.
Not necessarily. They're as mysterious as any other conscious experience.
Are Near Death Experiences Hallucinations?
Probably because it sees science as overstepping it's bounds (or people using science to attack religion) and I for one want to just say that science has not shown what the attackers of religion tell us it has shown. And yes I know that religionist in the past have attacked science on the basis of religious ideas.
When science begins talking about values and meaning is has overstepped its bounds. But when it withholds belief pending evidence, well, that's just being rational, as is the true statement that there is no hard evidence for religion's claim of god. That's not an attack, just an epistemic observation.
It's usually religion that oversteps its bounds by making declarations of historic, scientific or ontological fact -- with little or no supporting evidence.
Chemistry happens of course but it is a belief that life came from chemistry.
Does religion offer any alternate explanation?
I could say that same about you and replace "abiogenesis" with "creation" and "chemistry" with "creator" and magic with "the magic of making dead matter come to life".
These are not logically equivalent.
There is evidence in the scriptures. Things prophesied that actually happened. Miracles reported by people to have happened.
The miracles are hearsay. There is no reliable documentation. Moreover, miracles are reported in folklore and scripture from myriad cultures and religions, all over the world. Are they all true, just because they were told and retold and eventually written down?
Prophesies coming true is often a matter of interpretation. People find predictions realized in Nostradamus and a thousand other soothsayers and scriptures, and many prophesies are recognized only in hindsight; historical facts recognized as prophesied only after they occur.
Many prophesies are notoriously vague and open to interpretation.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
Like Intuition, science is also fallible, so while intuition is not a perfect source of knowledge, it is a good source of knowledge.

That would really depend on the situation.

So if, I was a scientist, working on hypothesis, then I would be relying on the evidence or the tests, no matter how long it may take. The whole idea of Scientific Method is to use evidence or experiments to objectively measure the likelihood or unlikelihood that model (eg hypothesis) being true or false.

To bring in intuition while doing scientific research, would be the same as allowing personal feeling to bias the results. Intuition is like using personal “feeling”, the so-called gut feeling; that is being subjective, not objective.

Why on Earth would you use intuition in science research?

For example if the evidence for a proposition is 50% 50% your would be rational in accepting what your intuition tells you.

If you at impasse or stalemate doing scientific research, like this 50-50 scenario, then it isn’t possible to make a rational decision at all.

In such cases, you would either ditch the hypothesis altogether, or you would come up with another method of testings, to break the deadlock.

I still wouldn’t use intuition, because intuition is subjective reasoning, not objective reasoning. And subjective reasoning tends to be biased.

Valjean use the hunter-gatherer scenario where intuition might be useful, so if you are doing fieldwork as a police-person or soldier, where you could allow intuition and past experiences to effect your decision.

But since thread is science and religion forum, not about hunter, police or soldier work, then regarding to science, decision made in conclusion, should be made based only on the available evidence, not on subjective “feeling” like intuition.

Second, you wrote that it “would be rational in accepting what your intuition tells you.”

You do realize that intuition is the opposite of being “rational” or “logical”. You are making false dichotomy fallacy and false equivalence fallacy statement here.

This is a definition of intuition:

“Oxford Dictionary: intuition” said:
Intuition: the ability to understand something immediately, without the need for conscious reasoning.

Conscious reasoning is being rational and logical. Intuition isn’t being rational.

You are confusing the two words: intuition and rational.
 
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Brian2

Veteran Member
Except when a simple, familiar, observable alternative is known,. Then the 'magical hypothesis' seems not so evident..

There is really no alternative at the moment. Even if there was it seems that an intelligence would have had to not only created the building blocks for such a thing to be possible but to design such a system to be able to grow from the ground up.

For which there's a demonstrable, observable explanation. You keep leaving natural selection out of your calculations.

Natural selection is also a great and well designed way to make life adaptable to changing environments and to be able to follow (under different environments) a predetermined path to a desired end.

True, and that would put him without the purview of science, as well.

True, but as I say, science is a disciples but is not the only way to find knowledge.

When evidence is found and validated empirically, it will certainly be incorporated into the scientific world-view, just as previous cherished mechanisms were replaced, once new facts came to light.
The encoded language of DNA is not a mystery, though. There's no need to adduce magic.

It is suggestive of an intelligent being however who can encode data into a molecular language that can be read and used. It's a bit like the watchmaker argument.

As all scientists would agree, and the greatest of these limitations are magic and the supernatural.

It does seem to get to a point in science where the things that are postulated are really the same magic that you accuse creationists of believing. Matter turning into living conscious matter and the universe coming from nothing to name the obvious ones.

And that's all science needs. Just look how successful its methodology has been in advancing our understanding of the world and ability to use this understanding to make the computer you're typing on.

It's wonderful that the collective intelligence and energy of humanity has done such things with what we have been given to work with. Our flaw of course is in the nature of humans to use things for evil as well as good.
The further we go the more it should be clear that a powerful and intelligent being was behind it all.
But of course I'm speaking from my own pov, and it is not so clear to many people.

Have you not been reading everyone's responses? Science doesn't point away from a god. The idea just never comes up. It's outside of science's purview. Without observable, measurable data, it's not something science has the tools to deal with.
Science can't make bricks without straw.

Unfortunately I have enough trouble keeping up with my posts and cannot read all the posts.
But yes I agree that God does lie outside science's purview. I find it silly that so many people use science as evidence for no God on the basis of hypotheses and a belief that we will find answers one day even if those answers cannot answer what really happened back when, they are just suggested answers based on the idea that there was no intelligence behind it.

Until about 200 years ago, science wasn't really a thing. The various interpretations weren't based on science, though they did, occasionally interpret new data into their stories. Except where it's known to be in historical or factual error, or self contradictory.

Nevertheless it has been the prevailing views of the times which people have used to interpret many things the Bible says. Whether you want to call that science or not is not the point.

WHAT!! Where are you getting this? Answers in Genesis?
In actual fact, as 'new knowledge' continues to mount, it becomes increasingly evident that biblical history is often just folklore. As archaeological and geological investigation continues, as newly discovered texts are examined and translated, biblical history becomes increasingly dubious.

Actually as new knowledge continues to mount, it is becoming increasingly clear that Biblical history is true and comes from the times it is supposed to have been written and agrees with findings from the history of other countries.
I do shy away from the Young Earth Creationist views however...........just as I shy away from the purely scientific view of where and how all this came to be.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
I need to say few things about the above.

First, Abiogenesis is not a model just about trying to recreate life, but HOW inorganic molecules and compounds can chemically convert into organic compounds and molecules.

In every cells - whether they are cells from bacteria, achaea, fungi, plants or animals - there are at least 3 biological compounds found in these cells that are essential for life: proteins, nucleic acids and carbohydrates.

Discovering how these biological matters form in the early earth history, are keys to finding the origin of the earliest cells.

That’s what biologists and biochemists have been researching on. They are taking little steps, one step after another. That’s what some of the experiments have been all about, the origin of these compounds.

Among the earliest experiments were that of the Miller-Urey experiment, back in 1952, trying to recreate Earth’s environment where the atmosphere comprised of no free oxygen. The purpose is to use selection of inorganic compounds or molecules to chemically form into amino acids.

Do you ever wonder why these chose amino acids over nucleic acids or carbohydrates?

The answer is this: in a average healthy human body (adult), proteins is the highest biological molecule found in the body, about 20% of a human body mass. The second highest is lipids, which is body fat and fatty acids, around 12%. DNA only make up 0.1% of body mass of human adult, while RNA is about 1%.

All our tissues (eg skin, etc), our muscles, all of our organs (eg eyes, brain, heart, kidney, lung, etc), our body fluids (blood, urine, etc), every cells, genes and chromosomes, etc - they all contain different types of proteins. Different types of proteins have different types of purposes.

So what does Miller-Urey experiment on amino acids have do with proteins?

Everything. Absolutely everything!

There are over 500 different types of amino acids, 23 of these amino acids, are found naturally to form different types of proteins. Proteins cannot exist without amino acids.

At the end of the experiment, 11 out of 23 types of amino acids were chemically produced. They sealed this liquid in a vial, and stored it away, until Stanley Miller’s death in 2007. What they discovered in the vial was a total 20 amino acids.

That experiment is considered a success.

After 1952, other experiments have been performed, adding different inorganic compounds to mimic Earth’s early atmosphere, like sulfur and carbon dioxide, due to volcanic activities that would have occurred at that time. These experiments have successfully created organic amino acids.


Second, Abiogenesis is still a hypothesis, not an accepted scientific theory.

But it is working hypothesis, since biochemists are still performing various experiments and over the decades made some discoveries. These evidence make Abiogenesis at least falsifiable and testable, and that much is in Abiogenesis favour.

However there are more than version of Abiogenesis, which would mean choosing which version is true for Life origin on Earth, is yet to be chosen.

But Abiogenesis is yet to be accepted. This is why undergrad biology students cannot choose to study Abiogenesis as a subject or course, because only researchers and professors are or were actively investigating Abiogenesis, not undergrad students.

Until they come to agreement which Abiogenesis models is true, no biology or biochem students can study Abiogenesis.

Abiogenesis is specialized field that only very few biochemists and biologists are involved in such researches.

Thanks for that information about abiogenesis.
Here is an interesting read/discussion for you if you are interested (the video is the same as the article and at least you know how long it is going to take you to finish it.:) )
Royal Society Announcement: $10 Million Prize for Life’s Origin
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Seems to me that the definition of atheism is unchanged but many religious people will not accept it because they cannot conceive of life without belief in god.

The futility of prayer
Unnecessary suffering
Childhood leukemia
Lack of any physical evidence throughout history
Claimed omniscience
Claimed omnipotence
Claimed omnipresence

For a start.

It does not look like empirical evidence to me. It looks like questions relating to and problems with the existence of a God in your opinion.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
That would really depend on the situation.

So if, I was a scientist, working on hypothesis, then I would be relying on the evidence or the tests, no matter how long it may take. The whole idea of Scientific Method is to use evidence or experiments to objectively measure the likelihood or unlikelihood that model (eg hypothesis) being true or false.

To bring in intuition while doing scientific research, would be the same as allowing personal feeling to bias the results. Intuition is like using personal “feeling”, the so-called gut feeling; that is being subjective, not objective.

Why on Earth would you use intuition in science research?



If you at impasse or stalemate doing scientific research, like this 50-50 scenario, then it isn’t possible to make a rational decision at all.

In such cases, you would either ditch the hypothesis altogether, or you would come up with another method of testings, to break the deadlock.

I still wouldn’t use intuition, because intuition is subjective reasoning, not objective reasoning. And subjective reasoning tends to be biased.

Valjean use the hunter-gatherer scenario where intuition might be useful, so if you are doing fieldwork as a police-person or soldier, where you could allow intuition and past experiences to effect your decision.

But since thread is science and religion forum, not about hunter, police or soldier work, then regarding to science, decision made in conclusion, should be made based only on the available evidence, not on subjective “feeling” like intuition.

Second, you wrote that it “would be rational in accepting what your intuition tells you.”

You do realize that intuition is the opposite of being “rational” or “logical”. You are making false dichotomy fallacy and false equivalence fallacy statement here.

This is a definition of intuition:


Conscious reasoning is being rational and logical. Intuition isn’t being rational.

You are confusing the two words: intuition and rational.
That would really depend on the situation.

So if, I was a scientist, working on hypothesis, then I would be relying on the evidence or the tests, no matter how long it may take. The whole idea of Scientific Method is to use evidence or experiments to objectively measure the likelihood or unlikelihood that model (eg hypothesis) being true or false.

To bring in intuition while doing scientific research, would be the same as allowing personal feeling to bias the results. Intuition is like using personal “feeling”, the so-called gut feeling; that is being subjective, not objective.

Why on Earth would you use intuition in science research?



If you at impasse or stalemate doing scientific research, like this 50-50 scenario, then it isn’t possible to make a rational decision at all.

In such cases, you would either ditch the hypothesis altogether, or you would come up with another method of testings, to break the deadlock.

I still wouldn’t use intuition, because intuition is subjective reasoning, not objective reasoning. And subjective reasoning tends to be biased.

Valjean use the hunter-gatherer scenario where intuition might be useful, so if you are doing fieldwork as a police-person or soldier, where you could allow intuition and past experiences to effect your decision.

But since thread is science and religion forum, not about hunter, police or soldier work, then regarding to science, decision made in conclusion, should be made based only on the available evidence, not on subjective “feeling” like intuition.

Second, you wrote that it “would be rational in accepting what your intuition tells you.”

You do realize that intuition is the opposite of being “rational” or “logical”. You are making false dichotomy fallacy and false equivalence fallacy statement here.

This is a definition of intuition:


Conscious reasoning is being rational and logical. Intuition isn’t being rational.

You are confusing the two words: intuition and rational.
All I am saying is that if something “seems to be true” or “seems to be real” it would be rational to suppose that it´s real/true, unless someone presents evidence to the contrary. This is what I understand by intuition.

If a religious experience seems to be real, it is fair to assume that it was real , unless someone provides evidence to the contrary

If it seems that your wife loves you, then it is fair to assume that she loves you unless someone presents evidence to the contrary

If it seems that you are awake and not dreaming then it is fair to assume that you are awake unless someone provides evidence to the contrary….

You might make a comment disagreeing with this statement, but if I where to bet, I´ll bet that you life your daily life as if intuitions where reliable sources of knowledge,
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
All I am saying is that if something “seems to be true” or “seems to be real” it would be rational to suppose that it´s real/true, unless someone presents evidence to the contrary. This is what I understand by intuition.
The Sun seems to rise in the East of a seemingly flat Earth, and set in the West -- unless you're one of those progressive wackos who thinks Earth's a ball with the Sun circling it. :rolleyes:
Will a heavy object fall faster than a slow one? Obviously!
If a religious experience seems to be real, it is fair to assume that it was real , unless someone provides evidence to the contrary
If a dozen people with different religious experiences all feel theirs is the true one, which should we assume is right?
If it seems that your wife loves you, then it is fair to assume that she loves you unless someone presents evidence to the contrary

If it seems that you are awake and not dreaming then it is fair to assume that you are awake unless someone provides evidence to the contrary….

You might make a comment disagreeing with this statement, but if I where to bet, I´ll bet that you life your daily life as if intuitions where reliable sources of knowledge,
Intuition was great when we lived as hunter-gatherers. Today -- often not. Reality just isn't as it appears. Our technical world today was made possible by abandoning intuition and commonsense.

"Evidence to the contrary." This is where the anti-science and religious crowds go wrong. They reject legitimate evidence contrary to their particular cherished beliefs.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The Sun seems to rise in the East of a seemingly flat Earth, and set in the West -- unless you're one of those progressive wackos who thinks Earth's a ball with the Sun circling it. :rolleyes:
Will a heavy object fall faster than a slow one? Obviously!
If a dozen people with different religious experiences all feel theirs is the true one, which should we assume is right?
Yes and 500 years ago it was completely rational to assume that the geocentric model was true……..it was not until someone (Galileo Kepler etc.) presented evidence that it became more rational to drop the geocentric model and adopt the heliocentric model.

I am not saying that intuitions are infallible, I am just saying that if there is no evidence to the contrary, it’s reasonable to accept your intuitions as real................This is how you live your daily life.........


"Evidence to the contrary." This is where the anti-science and religious crowds go wrong. They reject legitimate evidence contrary to their particular cherished beliefs.
Granted, as I said before, if the evidence suggests that “X” is true you should accept X even if your intuitions tells you “Y”

You don’t test every single thing before making a decision, in most of the cases you simply trust your intuitions, usually you can tell by intuition if someone is male or female by simply trusting what seems to be true…….I am sure you don’t perform DNA tests to every single person before assuming whether if he/she is a woman or not.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
If a dozen people with different religious experiences all feel theirs is the true one, which should we assume is right?
.
Everybody would be within his rational rights to assume that his experience is real unless someone presents evidence against the truth of their religion or the truth or their experience.

I think there are good reasons to reject Islam, Judaism, Pagan Religions etc. which is why I wouldn’t accept their experiences as reliable…………the same would be true if you present good reasons to reject the Christian religion.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
All I am saying is that if something “seems to be true” or “seems to be real” it would be rational to suppose that it´s real/true, unless someone presents evidence to the contrary. This is what I understand by intuition.

If a religious experience seems to be real, it is fair to assume that it was real , unless someone provides evidence to the contrary

Your example (what I highlighted in bold), is making assumptions that everything you believe in “to be true, by default”.

That’s the opposite as to what people do in science.

In Natural Science, no new models (eg hypotheses) are ever considered “true by default”.

Any model - new model (hypothesis) or existing model (scientific theory) must be tested first, before it can be considered true. None of them are accepted by default.

A hypothesis would contain some “proposed” explanations to phenomena that a scientist is trying to explain, by attempting to answer at the very least 1st two questions below, like
  1. WHAT they are?
  2. HOW do they work?
  3. WHAT possible applications the phenomena may have?
  4. HOW would you make the applications work?
Not all phenomena have applications, so you would attempt to answer questions 3 and 4, ONLY WHEN they are applicable.

The explanations might also “proposed” mathematical proofs, like some equations, formulas, constants or metrics. That’s what proofs are, logical statements in the form of equations. Proofs are not evidence, leroy; they are parts of the “proposed” explanation.

The new model (hypothesis) should include some predictions, as standards or yardstick in which to test the hypothesis.

And lastly, the hypothesis would and should contain instructions as to how would one test all of the above (eg test the explanations, test the proofs and test the predictions). Such proposed testings are necessary to determine if it is true or false, and you would obtain the evidence through going out in the fields to find the evidence, or you would find the evidence in the test results of lab experiments.

In the lab experiments, for instance, the hypothesis should have instructions as to
  1. what equipments or devices you would need to carry out the experiments,
  2. and what test subjects would you in the experiments.

Once you have completed the formulation of the hypothesis, the next step in Scientific Method would be to carry out the actual testings and analyzing the evidence and data. The more evidence you have, the better you can make decisions about the hypothesis’ status.

These tests, observations and evidences needs to be repeatable, empirical and testable.

These tests should yield one of the following outcomes -

(A) ...evidence/observations that might demonstrate the model is true and probable;
(B) ...or the evidence/observations might demonstrate the model is false and improbable.​

One way or the other, the evidence are required for testings any model, new or old. No models are considered true by default, without testings.

With religions, it required only “belief” and “faith” in the scriptures or teaching, to be true; no testings and no evidence are required.

Science and religions are not the same things. Religions don’t need to follow the requirements of natural science, which are -
  1. to be testable or falsifiable (Falsification),
  2. be tested (required in Scientific Method),
  3. and be subjected to scrutiny and analysis by independent scientists (Peer Review)
God, miracles and resurrection as narrated in the Bible, cannot be tested and don’t need to be testable, hence the needs for belief and faith to accept god, miracles and resurrection.

That’s the differences between religions and sciences.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Your example (what I highlighted in bold), is making assumptions that everything you believe in “to be true, by default”.

That’s the opposite as to what people do in science.
Not just in science, but in all aspects of rational thinking.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
There is really no alternative at the moment. Even if there was it seems that an intelligence would have had to not only created the building blocks for such a thing to be possible but to design such a system to be able to grow from the ground up.
On what evidence are basing that on? Can you provide an example of such system that you know of and/or are using to compare it with. If do not know of such system in existence, then how can your specific "system" seems to be that way if you don't have any sort of reference to based it off of.
It is suggestive of an intelligent being however who can encode data into a molecular language that can be read and used. It's a bit like the watchmaker argument.
No, it's not suggestive of an intelligent being outside of humans. That "language" you speak of, is nothing more than an analogy that we humans use to describe and communicate to each other. It's only there because that's how we humans interpret things. If no human exist, then that "language" would be meaningless because it would not exist.

And how is it like the watchmaker argument?

Unfortunately I have enough trouble keeping up with my posts and cannot read all the posts.
But yes I agree that God does lie outside science's purview. I find it silly that so many people use science as evidence for no God on the basis of hypotheses and a belief that we will find answers one day even if those answers cannot answer what really happened back when, they are just suggested answers based on the idea that there was no intelligence behind it.
Science is not based on the idea that there was no intelligence behind it, nor is it based on the idea that there is intelligence.

Actually as new knowledge continues to mount, it is becoming increasingly clear that Biblical history is true and comes from the times it is supposed to have been written and agrees with findings from the history of other countries.
One must understand and see the distinction between "biblical" history and "actual" history. Those new knowledge does not necessarily make "biblical" history as a whole, to be true.

Take the story of Jericho. Even if evidence are found making it true that the city of Jericho once existed, from that, the only thing that we can conclude that is true about "biblical" history being true, is that the city did exist. Further evidence would be needed to confirm that the events in the story did actually happened as it's told.
 
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