Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

[viole]

.the time when all returns to God's original purpose in Eden.

What happens if someone decides to abuse her free will again, once we all, well you all, have returned to Him?

Ciao

- viole

 

[JesusBeliever]

Most churches teach that all Christians go to heaven, which means that there will be 'all chiefs and no Indians'. Rulers have to have subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their duties. Who will these be?

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be CHIEF among you, let him be your SERVANT: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." Matthew 20:25-28

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Do yu believe something just because most churches teach it? I am still waiting to see one scripture that speciffically says this. A few hint at it but as this is a major belief you would think there would be more than just hints. Especially when the Bible actually says " no man has ascended into Heaven."

 

[JesusBeliever]

I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences with some JW's. We try to train ourselves not to be high-minded, but "with lowliness of mind considering that the others are superior to you." (Philippians 2:3) This mainly applies, though, to fellow worshippers, but more is said on this further down.

We do get upset at times with the Pharisee-like clergy of Christendom, which is not right (because, although Jesus got upset with those religious leaders in His day, he could read their heart....we can not). We don't intend to treat anyone harshly, but we are imperfect like everyone else.

We feel we have a superior way of life -- worshipping the true God, Jesus' Father, Jehovah, like no one else does today -- but that really shouldn't carry over into having a superior attitude.

The Apostle Paul gave some fine counsel to the Cretan Christians through Titus, who lived among Godless people (Titus 1:12), but they were "to speak evil of no man, not to be contentious, to be gentle, showing all meekness toward all men."(Titus 3:2) (In fact, I have a public discourse I give, containing this information.) But we face people all the time who are nasty to us, and intentionally twist our words and beliefs...so it's hard not to get irked.

We do try to imitate Jesus and apply Bible principles in every aspect of our lives, but Proverbs 15:1 often proves true,

Take care, my cousin.

Hi Hockeycowboy,
Thanks for sharing Proverbs 15:1 coz I really needed that for encouragement.

Excellent questions, my Sister!

But most people won't try to answer all of them (they can't)....they'll just pick and choose some questions, and ignore the rest. Or, ignore all of them, but keep continuing to ask more, trying to control the conversation.

BTW, I really like your emoji's

The difficulty is, as you highlight above is that you assume that most people won't try to answer all of them because "they can't" OR if they do try to answer, their just trying to control the conversation. Which puts a reader of this thread like myself in a bit of a bind, coz I'm judged if I do answer and judged if I don't.
I would be happy to try and answer Deeje's questions, but I'm concerned that it will only stir up anger, regardless of how softly I try to put it. Coz as you said, JWs believe they have a superior way of life, and Deeje follows this up with saying you are all united in the same mind and judgment in comparison to fragmented Christendom who are not. All this tells a person like myself is, what is the point of answering?

 

[Deeje]

What happens if someone decides to abuse her free will again, once we all, well you all, have returned to Him?

Having already set precedents now for all eternity to come, no rebel will ever be allowed to stay and ruin life for anyone else again.
Rebellion leads to disaster and chaos, impinging on the free will of others....so if free will is abused again, there is no basis to forgive any deviation from the path God sets for us.
We either 'shape up or we ship out'. Its up to us. Life is a gift but it doesn't come without conditions....it never did.

As free willed beings we can choose life or death. 'Obey and live...disobey and die.' I don't think it gets much simpler than that.

 

[Deeje]

"But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be CHIEF among you, let him be your SERVANT: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many." Matthew 20:25-28

Quoting that scripture lets me know that you understand very little of what I said. For someone who has supposedly studied the Bible with us, I find that odd. You don't seem to understand much of what we believe at all.

You posted that scripture in response to this....

"Most churches teach that all Christians go to heaven, which means that there will be 'all chiefs and no Indians'. Rulers have to have subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their duties. Who will these be?"

You do understand what a "saying" is, I assume? "All chiefs and no Indians" doesn't mean that Christ's co-heirs (Romans 8:17) are "chiefs" in a domineering sense.

In Israel, a "chief" was a prominent one....an appointed leader over a designated number of people. (Exodus 18:17-21) In a ruling capacity, all who are appointed to rule mankind in the kingdom arrangement are "chiefs" but not in the sense of dominating others.
Unlike what the Jews understood as a "chief", Christians had the son of God, the highest ranking personage on earth, washing the feet of his apostles. Humble service is what Jesus demonstrated, not the wielding of authority with power or arrogance, like the Pharisees. The yoke Jesus placed on his disciples was "kindly" and his "load was light".

Nevertheless, those chosen for rulership in heaven have authority over those of us who will live on the earth, but in imitation of Christ, it will be a loving and kind arrangement.

The difficulty is, as you highlight above is that you assume that most people won't try to answer all of them because "they can't" OR if they do try to answer, their just trying to control the conversation. Which puts a reader of this thread like myself in a bit of a bind, coz I'm judged if I do answer and judged if I don't.

Are you worried about being judged by others?

Are other POV really that intimidating? Isn't being judged by Jesus more important? We get one shot at this, so we have to examine things carefully.

I have the courage of my convictions and I assume that those who post on internet forums can hold their own the same way. Walking on eggshells around super-sensitive people is something I am not good at...sorry.

I would be happy to try and answer Deeje's questions, but I'm concerned that it will only stir up anger, regardless of how softly I try to put it. Coz as you said, JWs believe they have a superior way of life, and Deeje follows this up with saying you are all united in the same mind and judgment in comparison to fragmented Christendom who are not. All this tells a person like myself is, what is the point of answering?

I was looking for a united faith like this when I was in Christendom. It ticks all the boxes for me, but if it doesn't tick the boxes for you, that is entirely your choice. You are free to believe whatever you like. But internet forums are not a good place for sensitive souls. There is no point in answering if all you have is your own personal spin on the scriptures, which is not believed by anyone else.....how do you expect that to be the truth? Doesn't simple logic tell you that we cannot be 'loners' spiritually speaking. We must find a body of believers with whom to fellowship and they must be those who are like minded. (1 Corinthians 1:10) We are told to meet with them regularly, and more especially when we behold the day of Jehovah drawing near. (Hebrews 10:24-25) In all honesty, with whom can you do that?

How do you remove yourself from "Babylon the great", if you don't know what it is? It is a command for God's "people", not a suggestion. (Revelation 18:4-5) Failing to obey that command has dire consequences.

As I have already said, the Aussie in me doesn't tip-toe around fragile sensibilities very well. I am sorry if my directness stumbles you, but its the only way I know how to teach.
Perhaps I am just the wrong person to engage you in conversation. My brother seems to do well in that respect.

 

[JesusBeliever]

"Most churches teach that all Christians go to heaven, which means that there will be 'all chiefs and no Indians'. Rulers have to have subjects and priests need sinners for whom to perform their duties. Who will these be?"

I stand corrected and apologize for mishearing your statement. I had to read it a couple more times to hear it, and I realized I was misreading your words "for whom to perform their duties."

Are you worried about being judged by others?

Are other POV really that intimidating?

Not at all. I think this is where you are now mishearing my statement. I said:

The difficulty is, as you highlight above is that you assume that most people won't try to answer all of them because "they can't" OR if they do try to answer, their just trying to control the conversation. Which puts a reader of this thread like myself in a bit of a bind, coz I'm judged if I do answer and judged if I don't.

What I meant by this is your mind is already made up so there seems no point in answering.

Isn't being judged by Jesus more important? We get one shot at this, so we have to examine things carefully.

I agree with this 100%

I have the courage of my convictions and I assume that those who post on internet forums can hold their own the same way. Walking on eggshells around super-sensitive people is something I am not good at...sorry.

I was looking for a united faith like this when I was in Christendom. It ticks all the boxes for me, but if it doesn't tick the boxes for you, that is entirely your choice. You are free to believe whatever you like. But internet forums are not a good place for sensitive souls. There is no point in answering if all you have is your own personal spin on the scriptures, which is not believed by anyone else.....how do you expect that to be the truth? Doesn't simple logic tell you that we cannot be 'loners' spiritually speaking. We must find a body of believers with whom to fellowship and they must be those who are like minded. (1 Corinthians 1:10) We are told to meet with them regularly, and more especially when we behold the day of Jehovah drawing near. (Hebrews 10:24-25) In all honesty, with whom can you do that?

And likewise, I realize that there is no point in answering if all you have is your own group spin on Scripture. which is not believed by anyone else... Do you see how easy it is to write sentences like these, and to suggest so much in so few words?

How do you remove yourself from "Babylon the great", if you don't know what it is? It is a command for God's "people", not a suggestion. (Revelation 18:4-5) Failing to obey that command has dire consequences.

I would agree which is why I am not a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

As I have already said, the Aussie in me doesn't tip-toe around fragile sensibilities very well. I am sorry if my directness stumbles you, but its the only way I know how to teach.
Perhaps I am just the wrong person to engage you in conversation. My brother seems to do well in that respect.

Or maybe like you I have courage of convictions as well, and inevitably we clash.

 

[viole]

As free willed beings we can choose life or death. 'Obey and live...disobey and die.' I don't think it gets much simpler than that.

Zum Befehl, Herr Gott!

I hope you understand, but I prefer death. I could never be able to look myself in the mirror (for all eternity) for abiding to the dictates of a celestial dictator. I mean, who ordered Him?


Ciao

- viole

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

And yet while you are alive here on Earth you are subject to the law just like everyone else. You obey the law here but would rather die than obey God's law in the next life. This is most interesting.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hi Hockeycowboy,
Thanks for sharing Proverbs 15:1 coz I really needed that for encouragement.


The difficulty is, as you highlight above is that you assume that most people won't try to answer all of them because "they can't" OR if they do try to answer, their just trying to control the conversation. Which puts a reader of this thread like myself in a bit of a bind, coz I'm judged if I do answer and judged if I don't.
I would be happy to try and answer Deeje's questions, but I'm concerned that it will only stir up anger, regardless of how softly I try to put it. Coz as you said, JWs believe they have a superior way of life, and Deeje follows this up with saying you are all united in the same mind and judgment in comparison to fragmented Christendom who are not. All this tells a person like myself is, what is the point of answering?

I'm afraid you misunderstood (or maybe I misunderstood)....there's nothing wrong with answering! In fact, we appreciate it. What I was saying was different....as you said, "if they do try to answer, their just trying to control the conversation." No..... I stated that certain ones don't answer (ignoring them), yet ask further questions. That's where the control comes in.

But answering questions with respect and sincerity.....why should this "stir up anger"? I assure you, we try to apply Colossians 4:6, with respectful people, anyways.

If we have failed, I'm sure I speak for Deeje in apologizing.

 

[savagewind]

I assure you, we try to apply Colossians 4:6, with respectful people, anyways.

That is funny.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Zum Befehl, Herr Gott!

I hope you understand, but I prefer death. I could never be able to look myself in the mirror (for all eternity) for abiding to the dictates of a celestial dictator. I mean, who ordered Him?


Ciao

- viole

When you were growing up, did you listen to your parents? Was it that difficult? Did you prefer death? I doubt it, not if they were loving.

The dictator you refer to, is a loving Parent. He has way more wisdom than any of us will ever have. Following His laws are always beneficial.

When you read the Genesis account.....how many laws were Adam and Eve given? Three. And only one was prohibitive! Doesn't seem very dictatorial, to me.

 

[Deeje]

Zum Befehl, Herr Gott!

I hope you understand, but I prefer death. I could never be able to look myself in the mirror (for all eternity) for abiding to the dictates of a celestial dictator. I mean, who ordered Him?

Not even the most benevolent dictator in existence?

Don't worry, he will never give you something you don't want....your wish will be granted.

 

[savagewind]

Not even the most benevolent dictator in existence?

Don't worry, he will never give you something you don't want....your wish will be granted.

I don't think it is funny that you say God will grant her wish to rather die.

 

[Deeje]

And yet while you are alive here on Earth you are subject to the law just like everyone else. You obey the law here but would rather die than obey God's law in the next life. This is most interesting.

I think they call that "cutting off your nose to spite your face"....."No one is going to tell me what to do, so I would rather die than be dictated to by anyone".
That is easily fixed. Dictators cannot be dictated to either.....

In the 'new world' to come, (2 Peter 3:13) there will be no rebels.....no one to buck the system and the best ruler imaginable, so that no one will want to.

 

[savagewind]

Did Jesus Christ threaten anyone with death?

 

[JesusBeliever]

I'm afraid you misunderstood (or maybe I misunderstood)....there's nothing wrong with answering! In fact, we appreciate it. What I was saying was different....as you said, "if they do try to answer, their just trying to control the conversation." No..... I stated that certain ones don't answer (ignoring them), yet ask further questions. That's where the control comes in.

But answering questions with respect and sincerity.....why should this "stir up anger"? I assure you, we try to apply Colossians 4:6, with respectful people, anyways.

If we have failed, I'm sure I speak for Deeje in apologizing.

Apology accepted. I try to do the same and likewise apologise if I have also failed.
However I'm not sure you speak for Deeje after her recent posts.
I suppose the difficulty arises when we sincerely believe the other is in grave error.
Compassion for the other should compel us to try and answer.
Where is the compassion or grace in replies such as this:

Not even the most benevolent dictator in existence?

Don't worry, he will never give you something you don't want....your wish will be granted.

I find it disgusting that a professing follower of Christ would give such a loveless and mocking answer!

"But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." Romans 10:20

Jesus said:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die." John 12:32-33

I see no dictator here, or here:

"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" Romans 2:4

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that THE LONGSUFFERING OF OUR LORD IS SALVATION; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in ALL HIS EPISTLES, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:14-16

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

 

[Deeje]

Did Jesus Christ threaten anyone with death?

“Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna?"

It isn't a threat...it is the consequence of disobeying God.

 

[Deeje]

I find it disgusting that a professing follower of Christ would give such a loveless and mocking answer!

You see, its how you read my responses that makes you upset. Super-sensitive people look for things to offend them. You know I am direct. I was not mocking, but merely telling this person that her wish would be granted. But that is not God's wish. OK? If that is what she has chosen, then it is her God-given right to make that choice. Like all choices, there are consequences. Free will gives us choices and our hearts give us the basis to evaluate them. God will not prevent us from making the wrong choices. It tells him who we are.

Paul wrote about those choices when he talked about..."the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12. ESV)

This is not wishing evil upon anyone but merely conveying what God has already said. He will not spoil their delusion, but will permit them to keep it because they do "not love the truth". He is a reader of hearts and knows who is truly searching for him, not those merely looking for a god or a religious system that suits them.

Reality stinks sometimes but the truth is the truth, no matter how softly you present it. This is life or death...very serious stuff. If you were standing in the path of a runaway bus and I had to hurt you to save your life, would you accuse me of being mean because I pushed you too hard and bruised you? If it saved your life, I would bruise you again!

"But Isaiah is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me." Romans 10:20

Jesus said:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die." John 12:32-33

I see no dictator here, or here:

"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" Romans 2:4

You seem to be using the word "dictator" in a negative way...I assure you that God is the best dictator you will ever encounter. Love is the basis for everything he does, but justice must also be served. The two are in perfect balance with him. He is not a God of sentiment, but has a legal basis for all his requirements.

2 Peter 3:9-10:
"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." (ESV)

Since Jesus also said that those on the road to life are "few" (Matthew 7:13-14) we ought not assume that God is tolerant of those who do not want to serve him as he desires to be served. Jesus' rejection of "many" who claim him as their "Lord" at the judgment, (Matthew 7:21-23) is in spite of their protestations that they had done even "powerful works in his name". This speaks about those who are deluded as to God's requirements. He does have requirements, and we need to meet them because he will not accept us unless we are obedient to the teachings of his son.....all of them.

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that THE LONGSUFFERING OF OUR LORD IS SALVATION; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in ALL HIS EPISTLES, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:14-16

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

What is "grace"?.....maybe you need to answer that question first? It isn't the basis for an excuse that we can offer to God for why we failed to obey him.

As I said JB...if my posts offend you, please do not read them. You worship a God who is seems to be tolerant of wrongdoing and forgiving without repentance.....he is not that kind of God. He is trying to lead us all to repentance, but too many will not follow his lead, preferring to do things "their" way. (2 Peter 3:9-10)

"Long suffering" means that God is patient with our imperfections, but his patience has limits and is about to run out. There is no time to tip-toe around anyone. I can't do it...sorry.
And I cannot apologize for telling the truth. Go in peace, I will trouble you no further. Please place me on "ignore".

 

[savagewind]

“Serpents, offspring of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of Ge·henʹna?"

It isn't a threat...it is the consequence of disobeying God.

OK. Is that the best you have?

First of all it is a question.
Then, it isn't assuming Jehovah will be their executioner, but that they will reap what they have sown.
Thirdly, who was he speaking to? He was speaking to the leaders of Israel who were GUILTY of leading astray God's sheep.

Who do you think @viole is leading astray?