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@ImmortalFlame
Everyone can see that the question is a distraction from the fact that you ignored the vast, vast, VAST majority of my above post, that exposed you dishonestly manipulating several of the sources I provided.
30,000 civilians have died in Gaza. Israeli military strategy prioritises damage over civilian safety. There are numerous accounts coming out of Gaza of the IDF indiscriminately firing at civilians, even surrendering hostages. At this stage, we can no longer simply shrug and say "this is an unfortunate consequence of military action" and we have to start accepting the reality that what the IDF is currently engaged in is simply harming too many civilians for it to be justified.
I agree, it isn't. Which is why I condemn both what Hamas do and what Israel does.
Gee, it's almost as if escalation is a bad thing. Kind of like how there's a world of difference between what we're seeing now and what happened on October 7th, at least in terms of sheer scale.
Any actual evidence that this information is false?
Seems a lot of nuance you're willing to grant credit to Israel for.
Boy, it sure is interesting how you carefully avoided acknowledging the HUNDREDS OF CIVILIANS THAT WERE IN THE MOSQUE AT THE TIME. Also, the independent investigation, which concluded:
"The report of the UN Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict (aka the Goldstone report) stated that the Israelis intentionally bombed the al-Maqadmah mosque on the outskirts of Jabilyah when between 200 and 300 men and women attended for their evening prayer, with fifteen people dying. The South African jurist Richard Goldstone, who led the fact-finding mission, said "Assuming that weapons were stored in the mosque, it would not be a war crime to bomb it at night... It would be a war crime to bomb it during the day when 350 people are praying".[13] Judge Goldstone referred to the incident as a case where there is no other possible interpretation for what could have occurred other than a deliberate targeting of civilians.[13] The report concluded that the al-Maqadma mosque was hit during evening prayers by an Israeli missile, killing at least 15 people and injuring 40 others. The report noted that there was no evidence that the mosque had been used to store weapons or that it was being used by Palestinian militants at the time.[5] The report further described response of the Israeli Government, alleging that the mosque was not attacked at all, as "unsatisfactory and demonstrably false".[14]"
Seems a pretty big omission by you, there.
You think " 275 Palestinians were killed in a brutal house-to-house search for fedayeen (while a further 111 were reportedly killed in Rafah)" sounds like a SHOOTOUT?
"Men suspected of having borne arms were executed on the spot, in their homes or places of employment, while all males from 15 years to 60 years of age were forced to muster. Two massacres of civilians then took place. The first occurred when citizens were machine-gunned down after being forced to line up against the wall of the Ottoman-era caravanserai in the city's central square.[13] Local residents claim that the number of Palestinians shot dead in this action amounted to 100, according to oral memories collected by Joe Sacco.[20] The other massacre took place in the Khan Yunis refugee camp.[13] Although Israel's purpose was to root out the fedayin from Gaza, the massacres were largely wrought on civilians."
Oh yeah, totally sounds like a "shootout", that.
Literally, you just engaged in denying a mass murder.
Right. Now the question is, do you think that would justify any kind of retaliatory violence that significantly harms the civilian population of Israel, yes or no?
The point is that it's misleading to point to air strikes from Gaza as if they, alone, are the moral failing of the Gazans for which the hammer fell. We're talking about the culmination of decades of animosity, and the lion's share of it is a direct consequence of Israeli occupation, foreign policy and war crimes.
Unless you call it a "shootout", or ignore all independent investigation, or don't read far enough down a Wiki.
I agree. Routing out Hamas is not wrong. What matters, however, is how one CHOOSE TO DO THAT. And if your operation to "route out Hamas" takes a form that KILLS TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS, I reserve the right to suggest that, at the absolute very least, you are showing a reckless disregard for the lives of those civilians and conducting operations in a way that is morally and logistically unjustifiable, or, at worst, perpetrating deliberate war crimes.
They're doing that now. That's literally what's happening right now in Gaza.
How kind of your to acknowledge it. The question now becomes, how do we fix it in a way that does the least amount of harm to innocent parties?
And either doing an incredibly, INCREDIBLY bad job of doing it, or else using that a pretext to do something else.
Israel/oPt: UN experts appalled by reported human rights violations against Palestinian women and girls
GENEVA (19 February 2024) – UN experts* today expressed alarm over credible allegations of egregious human rights violations to which Palestinian women and girls continue to be subjected in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.www.ohchr.org
So you literally believe you can justify enacting war crimes on civilians as a collective punishment against terrorist cells.
Cool.
And Israel's doing their best to make sure those same civilians also now have the added bonus of having no homes, no food, no power, no water, and no safe place to go. But, not to worry, they're being provided with flour - if they're able to run the gauntlet of IDF fire to get it.
Weird how you pay lip service to "both sides doing bad", but then pin literally all ills on Hamas, as if Israel had no choice other than to commit war crimes. Good stuff.
I've caught you in this very thread selectively quoting from my sources to misrepresent them, and calling hundreds people being pulled out of their homes and shot a "shootout".
You're clearly less willing to call out the wrongs done by Israel and the IDF than you are to call out the wrongs done by Hamas. You excuse Israeli war crimes because "Hamas are bad and did bad things", as if doing terrible things is justified by having terrible things done to you. This is playground logic.
Not likely to happen, considering Hamas are practically a death cult at this point. Relying on them to do the right thing is most likely to produce disappointment. But it's not a good enough excuse for what Israel are currently doing. If you want to put all the moral responsibility on Hamas doing the right thing, and in the meantime we excuse any and all activities by the IDF as excusable, then you might as well be suggesting that the IDF just wipe out all of the people in Gaza.
We have to start with a very distinct and practical acknowledgement of the fundamental right of the people of Gaza to live free and safe lives. We have to begin with the IDF willing to make a show to demonstrate that they actually CARE about the lives of people in the region. I thought the 30-plus trucks of aid would at least go some way to doing that, but then the IDF gunned down hundreds more civilians seeking aid and provided conflicted accounts as to why they did it.
How about a ceasefire, to start?
You ask a rhetorical question.
I hear most Palestinians want Israelites driven from the land
I assume you think not..
..a circular argument .. how can it be broken?
Unfortunately war is the only way it can be broken because you’re right it is a circular argument thats been going around 100 years. War will break it. Nothing stays the same.
Any clue why?
..to separate the "haves" from the "have-nots" ?
Again… you dance… and I will answer AGAIN (Capitalization for emphasis only) with extra for your edification. I please take note that you didn’t give source - and you call this honest debate. Hmph!
You're done. You're exposed as dishonest and incapable of debate. Bye.
Yes… we have different viewpoints. I see Hamas as the oppressive regime where they would prefer spending money on weapons and a city underneath of the Palestinians instead of feeding, constructive manufacturing, improving schools, and helping the poor.
While Hamas amass armaments and build tunnels? Is there any logic to your answer?
Last time I checked, about 3 percent of Palestinians were Christians.
Ahhhhh…. I answered each point, gave sites to support my position, gave logical understanding...
I don't see the pop. of Israel being herded into a corner, or Israelis driven from their homes.
Hamas killed 1,200+....yet you posit that they kill everyone?
You didn’t address one point, did you.