LDS beliefs and the Bible

[uss_bigd]

Katzpur,
since you both reject the Triune God revealed in the Holy Bible,

Who said your idea of the triune God is biblical?

Katzpur,
and both claim to be in the One True Church.

The restoration isn't biblical. we do not believe it need to be restored. We believe we have associated ourselves with the church in the bible. we never established a new church

 

[uss_bigd]

You have apparently misinterpreted my intentions. It is in no way my intention to try to discredit the Bible, and I had seriously hoped that you wouldn't back me into a wall over this issue. However, since you are so convinced that you couldn't possibly be wrong, and have made a pretty slanderous accusation against me, please consider these examples:

Which did God create first -- man or beast? Genesis 1 contradicts Genesis 2:

Genesis 1:25-26 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 2:18-19 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Genesis 1 relays the order of creation, it was God talking in Genesis 1. Genesis two relays the Author's point of view(Moses).

Moses did not narrate everything in there order anymore, has he intends to inteject his own narration in chapter two. you will notice that in chapter two moses was already narrating the fact that adam named the animals which was not yet mentioned in chapter 1.

In summary you have to recognize who is talking. it was God in Chapter 1 and Moses on Chapter 2.

you just thought there were contradicting becasue you thought there was only one person talking.

I will work on the next ones ok? please bear with me.

 

[uss_bigd]

Did God tell Moses that killing was wrong? That depends upon which book you read.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

SIgh! and you say this same God sent your prophet? why should i trust your religion then if that is the case? well that is how an athiest will ask you.

God in the book of numbers ordered that the medianites be killed becuase they caused some isrealites to sexual immorality and idolatry.

The same holds true that if a woman is proved to be an adulterer she is stoned to death.

In a nutshell Katspur. Exo 20:13 is stating the law. Numbers 31:17 is stating the punishment for those who transgress the law. therefore no contradictin there!

 

[uss_bigd]

You have apparently misinterpreted my intentions. It is in no way my intention to try to discredit the Bible, and I had seriously hoped that you wouldn't back me into a wall over this issue. However, since you are so convinced that you couldn't possibly be wrong, and have made a pretty slanderous accusation against me, please consider these examples:

Which did God create first -- man or beast? Genesis 1 contradicts Genesis 2:

Genesis 1:25-26 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 2:18-19 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

What is the value of wisdom? Proverbs describes wisdom in one way and Ecclesiastes in a completely opposite way:

Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Did God tell Moses that killing was wrong? That depends upon which book you read.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Can God be seen or not? There are many contradictory verses on this subject, among them these, which say He can:

Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.

Genesis 32:30 For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

And these which say He can't:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live.

Does God temp man? Genesis says yes; James says no.

Genesis 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

Who has been to heaven? 2 Kings says Elijah was, but John says only Christ has.

2 Kings 2:11 And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

John 3:13 No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man.

Do we all sin?

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

How should we respond to the fool, by answering him or ignoring him?

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

When Saul/Paul was converted, did those who were with him hear anyone? One chapter of Acts says yes; another says no.

Acts 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Should we make others aware of our good deeds? One chapter in Matthew says we should; another says we shouldn't.

Matthew 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

Matthew 6:3-4 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secert. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Are we responsible for bearing our own burdens or not?

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Galatians 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

Who is for Jesus? Who is against Him?

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me.

Luke 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

its not complete yet though... but i thought i should let you know that the answers are in the works

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/biblical-debates/64757-contradictions-bible.html

 

[uss_bigd]

Marc,

There is no such thing as the doctrines and covenants of the book of mormon, nor is there a Book of Mormons. If you're going to debate the validity of LDS doctrine, you really ought to take the time to get your facts straight. Otherwise, it's pretty unlikely that anyone is going to take you very seriously.

Is it book of Mormon? sorry about the "s"

No doctrines and covenants? Whats this below?

Marc,
If you see 1 Timothy 3:2 as contradicting LDS doctrine, you might want to consider the fact that there are literally dozens of instances in which the various books of the Bible contain facts which contradict each other. If you doubt that what I am saying is true, I would be happy to provide you with a number of examples. You can't very well hold the Book of Mormon to a standard you are willing to ignore with respect to the Bible.

I don't read a defense on this post. just an attack. an attack on the bible which you claimed you based on too.

 

[uss_bigd]

Fortunately, we don't have to guess. We having a living prophet, a man through whom God speaks today just as He did anciently. He holds the same keys of authority Jesus gave to Peter, and is assisted in his calling by Twelve Apostles. This is the same organization Paul spoke of in Ephesians 4:11-14 when he said that the foundation upon which Christ built His Church should continue to exist until we all come into a unity of the faith. He said that without it, we would all be "children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine."

You just claimed the bible has a lot of contradictions, now you use a verse on me, how do i know that that verse is reliable( in your belief it might not be becausethe bible has a lot of contradictions?

It is not a sane thing to say that you base on the bible, and say it has a lot of contradictions. you lost all shred of credibility.

You have to realize that i will use your own words from now on. How can anyone trust what you say when you discredited the relaibility of the bible by claiming it has a lot of contradictions.

I'm saying precisely the opposite. With a spokesman appointed by God Himself, we don't need to sort this out for ourselves.

How do i know if your spokesman is not the false apostle masquerading to be of Christ? he is polygamous Christ did not condone to that.

(1) Well, for starters, I wouldn't make a claim I couldn't substantiate, as you have done. (2) I would suggest that you read James 1:5 and do as it counsels.

It's not up to me to prove anything. We come to a knowledge of spiritual truth just as Peter did. It is not revealed to us through "flesh and blood" but through our Father in Heaven. (See Matthew 16:13-19)

well, you said the bible has a lot of contradictions, how do i know if i can rely on the verses you quoted? are you choosing what to beleive in? almost the same as choosing your own righteousness.

As DeepShadow pointed out, God's commandments change from time to time, based on the needs and level of knowledge of His people. Monogamy is the norm. The Book of Mormon makes that absolutely clear. It also states that God may authorize the practice for a period of time if He wishes.

It can, but it shouldn't contradict it self. we live in one earth It is not logical for a single God to implement a law in asia and a different one in the US.

When chrsit came, He prohibited Polygamy! your Prophet neve came after several hundred years after Chrsit. Who gave you the idea that your prophet can go agains the law of Chrsit and say it is valid?

to make thins worse on your part, your own church later own condemned polygamy as if saying " our founding doctrine is wrong" you should actually debate with yourself here. i am just throwing the things you said back to you.


No, it doesn't. But it does mean that in order for us to be able to know the mind and will of God, He needs to be able to be in direct communication with us through a prophet -- just as He promised in the scriptures He would always be.

How can people know for sure? becuase you said so? how is that reliable? since you said the bible is full of contradictions, there is nothing relaible anymore is there

LOL. I'm not too worried about that. Athiests don't really care as much as fundamentalist Christians do. Atheists are already convinced that the entire Bible is nonsense.

They think it is nonesense because of people who say they beleive in it and then contradict it themselves

Replyies in pink

 

[uss_bigd]

The Bible teaches that we are all condemned

So when Paul said God Judges those from the outside he was lieng? or have you taken the priveledge of Judging them yourself? don't sir, thats evil!

God judges those from the outside, will mean, God Says who is condemned or not. Who dares says he has that priviledge more than God?

 

[Fish-Hunter]

So when Paul said God Judges those from the outside he was lieng? or have you taken the priveledge of Judging them yourself? don't sir, thats evil!

God judges those from the outside, will mean, God Says who is condemned or not. Who dares says he has that priviledge more than God?

US bigd,

I think it would be more accurate to respond by quoting what I said in context. Paul uses "outside" for those who are not united to Christ by faith. Those outside the Faith are already condemned. It is not my personal judgment, but Biblical revelation. When I said everyone is condemned, I am quoting Romans 5. In addition, I am quoting from Romans 3, and John 3. All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. Christ came to remove the universal condemnation for those who will believe. The mission of Christ is a rescue mission, to save people from their sins through faith. Those who have not been united to Christ by faith (Romans chapters 3 and 4) are under the wrath of God (Romans 1) and under condemnation. Romans chapter 1 (natural revelation) states that all men are without excuse through the evidence of creation which points to a Creator. In Romans 2, the Jews are guilty through the law. In addition, the Gentiles who do not have the law are guilty through their God given conscience. Like an attorney, the Apostle Paul presents the case that all mankind are guilty, without excuse, and condemned. He warns us that the wrath of God is coming as divine justice against all. This is the bad news of God. In reality, a sinner needs to understand the bad news of God to be enabled to spirituality understand the great good news of God in the person and work of Jesus Christ. If a person is going to understand the gospel of God, the book of Romans is foundational.

Please continue to share on this thread since Katzpur's defense against the light of truth is to continue to call me a troll, encouraging other Mormons to not communicate. This is a typical strategical tactic with Mormon missionaries too, as well as other Mormons when confronted with Scripture alone. If they can discredit the messenger, than they don't have to honestly address the message found in the Holy Bible alone. Again, my motive is as follows: I want all to know God as their Heavenly Father through the Biblical Christ alone. God the Holy Spirit works through the Holy Bible and does not contradict Biblical revelation from extra-biblical revelation sources. If you study how Satan worked in the garden, he attacked and distorted the Word of God by misquoting the Almighty God, causing Eve to doubt His Word. It is the same strategy the Satan uses today through extra-Biblical sources claiming to be revelation from above. Here is additional light to spirituality see.

Romans 8 - Life Through the Spirit

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

John 3

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

 

[Katzpur]

Genesis 1 relays the order of creation, it was God talking in Genesis 1. Genesis two relays the Author's point of view(Moses).

Moses did not narrate everything in there order anymore, has he intends to inteject his own narration in chapter two. you will notice that in chapter two moses was already narrating the fact that adam named the animals which was not yet mentioned in chapter 1.

In summary you have to recognize who is talking. it was God in Chapter 1 and Moses on Chapter 2.

you just thought there were contradicting becasue you thought there was only one person talking.

I will work on the next ones ok? please bear with me.

Oh please, Marc, don't waste your time trying to explain all of these. If you do, it will just emphasize that you have missed my point entirely. There will be an explanation for each and every apparent contradiction I have listed, just as there is an explanation for the apparent contradiction you found between what was taught in the Bible about polygamy and what is taught in the Doctrine and Covenants on the subject. If it helps you personally to resolve these in your mind, my all means do the research, but please don't think you need to do to prove anything to me.

 

[Katzpur]

The restoration isn't biblical. we do not believe it need to be restored. We believe we have associated ourselves with the church in the bible. we never established a new church

Actually, it is, but it's not the topic of this thread. If you are interested in a one-on-one debate on the subject, please let me know. Then we can talk without being interrupted by the troll.

 

[Katzpur]

SIgh! and you say this same God sent your prophet? why should i trust your religion then if that is the case? well that is how an athiest will ask you.

God in the book of numbers ordered that the medianites be killed becuase they caused some isrealites to sexual immorality and idolatry.

The same holds true that if a woman is proved to be an adulterer she is stoned to death.

In a nutshell Katspur. Exo 20:13 is stating the law. Numbers 31:17 is stating the punishment for those who transgress the law. therefore no contradictin there!

You finally get it! God gives us laws, but then will occasionally make an exception to the law. God said that we are not to kill, but also commanded a certain group of people to be killed. God said that a man is not to have more than one wife, but permitted a few men throughout history to do so. Therefore, no contradiction there either! It is a huge mistake to base one's entire understanding of what God wants on a single verse of scripture. In case you haven't noticed, it's possible to prove just about anything you want by appealing to one single bibical reference.

 

[Katzpur]

Is it book of Mormon? sorry about the "s"

Yes, it's The Book of Mormon. Apology accepted. I wouldn't have even mentioned it, except that it's a mistake you made on several different occasions and I thought you'd want to know.

No doctrines and covenants? Whats this below?

You said "the doctrine and covenants of the book of mormons." There is a book of latter-day revelation known as The Doctrine and Covenants. It is an entirely separate book from The Book of Mormon, and not a part of it, as your quote implied. There is also a fourth book, called The Pearl of Great Price. In other words, these four books of scripture constitute what we call, "The Standard Works."

1. The Holy Bible
2. The Book of Mormon
3. The Doctrine and Covenants
4. The Pearl of Great Price

I don't read a defense on this post. just an attack. an attack on the bible which you claimed you based on too.

I'm sorry you see it that way. I have no more reason to attack the Bible than you do. I was just pointing out something of which you obviously were unaware. If you thought I was attacking the Bible, you clearly misunderstood.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

You finally get it! God gives us laws, but then will occasionally make an exception to the law. God said that we are not to kill, but also commanded a certain group of people to be killed. God said that a man is not to have more than one wife, but permitted a few men throughout history to do so. Therefore, no contradiction there either!

The law according to the Holy Bible:

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." [ Deut. 21:23] - Gal 3:13

So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. - Gal 3:24

You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. - Gal 5:4

So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. - Rom 7:16

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. - Rom 7:21

We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. - 1 Tim 1:8

If you look at the opening post, the author started this thread as a responds to myself. You can choose to continue to call me a troll and ignore me, or address USS bigs but he believes similar to you. Why do you continue to post on a thread created as a debate betweem Mormonism and historical Biblical Christianity? If you look a USS bigs church on the web, it is considered a cult. Therefore, you are not debating according to the thread topic. Maybe you should start a new thread?

 

[Katzpur]

It is not a sane thing to say that you base on the bible, and say it has a lot of contradictions. you lost all shred of credibility.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I suppose that if I have "lost all... credibility," it would be a waste of time for me to respond to any more of your posts. You know, what really intrigues me is that you believe quite a few of the same things the Latter-day Saints do. Apparently you have come to the conclusions you have by reading the Bible and not relying on the philosophies of men. You do not believe in the Trinity, for instance. Neither do we. You do not believe (unless I have misunderstood you) that we are saved through faith alone. Neither do we. You believe baptism is essential to salvation. So do we. I'm surprised that you have also concluded that I have lost all credibility and that what I have to say is not "sane." I have done nothing but point out to you that your reasoning for rejecting the LDS Church's former practice of polygamy is flawed. My comments seem to have gone right over your head, though. At any rate, you may see my position as lacking credibility, but I think that an objective, outside observer would see that I have offered more support to back up my claims than you have to back up yours.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

This thread is a continuation of a discussion from another thread.



The main topic of this will be these questions in Fish-Hunter's post. But I gave the thread a more general name because I'm sure there will be other topics about Mormon beliefs and the Bible that could be discussed here too.

I'll answer these questions shortly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish-Hunter
**Thanks for correcting my error and I welcome it! I'm not sure if that one verse is even close to imply that there would be a wholesale apostasy of the Christian church. What happened to Joseph Smith's translation of the Christian Bible...not good enough for the LDS Church to use? Do you mind presenting a case for the entire apostasy of the 1st century through the 19th century church through the Christian Bible. I would love to read in context whatever Bible verses you can come up with. Does the Christian Bible ever point to the restoration movement of the LDS Church and a prophet of Joseph Smith? The other sheep is the Gentiles. If you wish to discuss, maybe you could start another thread and I would love to particpate. But before you start, can the Mormon Faith be supported apart from the Book of Mormon? Can the apostasy be strongly supported by the Holy Bible with scriptures taken in proper context? The proper context is the entire Bible, or at least the entire book of Amos.

Above is the opening post created by Sola'lor created to debate historical biblical Christianity with LDS Christianity. Therefore, out of respect of the intent of the author and me, let's keep our discussion within the thread topic. Historical Biblical Christianity can be defined by historical creeds such as the Westminster Confession of Faith, London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689, etc. I believe these two websites should frame the debate on this particular thread. Let's please stay within the thread topic. If you are not an LDS Christian or a historical Biblical Christian understood within the historical protestant confessions of faith, please try not to confuse the thread and consider starting a new thread to debate what you personally believe. There is too much chaos and confusion to compare and contrast more than two systems of beliefs.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

http://monergism.com/

Thank you,
Fish-Hunter

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[DeepShadow]

If the thread starter or mods think we're getting off topic, they can redirect the discussion. If someone else thinks the discussion is going off topic, they should report the off-topic posts and let the mods handle it.

 

[Sola'lor]

Sigh! do you know the name of the hot chich in your avatar? its Angel Locsin!

Yep I do know her name. She is my favorite Filipina Actress.

In reply to DeepShadow:
I don't think it's off topic. It's basically about Mormon doctrines found in the Bible. The point isn't to "limit" the LDS to the Bible. But to point out that LDS doctrines are found in the Bible and that we do use the Bible. The main topic was about the restoration and apostasy in the Bible. But I also made the thread as a place to discuss other LDS doctrines in relation to the Bible.

Another Evidence that and apostacy occured is that the Bible ends. There there was no apostasy and the priesthood continued on the earth there would have been prophets and apostles recieving revelations from God since the end of the Bible. Those words would have been considered scripture and included in the canon.

 

[DeepShadow]

Good point. As one Brother pointed out in Sunday School class today, you might as well ask any parent when they planned to stop speaking to their children.

 

[Katzpur]

Good point. As one Brother pointed out in Sunday School class today, you might as well ask any parent when they planned to stop speaking to their children.

Right! What parent would write down a list of instructions for his kids and then just disappear?

You know, what I find to be interesting is how long it took the Church (i.e. the early Christian Church) to finally officially decide that the canon was closed. It's almost as if the early leadership fully expected to continue to hear from God on a regular basis. And as long as the Apostles were alive, they did. It wasn't until the Apostles all died that revelation ceased, but it took several hundred years for the Church to put 2 and 2 together and come to the conclusion that God hadn't been in contact for awhile. I've just always found it so strange that if they'd actually expected God to stop talking after the last of the Apostles died, they didn't simply close the canon immediately by some sort of papal decree. Instead, it was as if they finally became reconciled to the fact that no one was getting revelation any more. Instead of recognizing why this had happened, they simply decided that God had nothing more to say and that, in fact, they weren't going to listen to Him should He ever start talking again. It's really a pretty incredulous way of looking at things when you stop to think about it.

 

[Sola'lor]

Right! What parent would write down a list of instructions for his kids and then just disappear?

You know, what I find to be interesting is how long it took the Church (i.e. the early Christian Church) to finally officially decide that the canon was closed. It's almost as if the early leadership fully expected to continue to hear from God on a regular basis. And as long as the Apostles were alive, they did. It wasn't until the Apostles all died that revelation ceased, but it took several hundred years for the Church to put 2 and 2 together and come to the conclusion that God hadn't been in contact for awhile. I've just always found it so strange that if they'd actually expected God to stop talking after the last of the Apostles died, they didn't simply close the canon immediately by some sort of papal decree. Instead, it was as if they finally became reconciled to the fact that no one was getting revelation any more. Instead of recognizing why this had happened, they simply decided that God had nothing more to say and that, in fact, they weren't going to listen to Him should He ever start talking again. It's really a pretty incredulous way of looking at things when you stop to think about it.

I imagine something similar would happen if the First Presidency and twleve Apostles wree killed in our day. Just hypothetical of course.