LDS beliefs and the Bible

[Polaris]

Thanks for your response. There is so much to cover. We should stick with one topic, don't you think?

Then please pick a topic and stick to it.

I believe the centrality of the message in the New Testament is the gospel of God, or the gospel of grace, or the gospel of Christ. The gospel is described in several ways in the New Testament.

That was quite vague.

I believe LDS.org proclaims that the Mormon Church restored the gospel.

No, Jesus restored his true gospel and true church through the prophet Joseph Smith.

Could you please share the Mormon gospel (good news)?

The "Mormon gospel" is the gospel of Christ -- that he, the Son of God, became a man, suffered and died for our sins, and grants us forgiveness conditional on our faith in him and obedience to his commandments, providing the means whereby we can be sanctified and become heirs to God, joint heirs with Christ.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Then please pick a topic and stick to it.



That was quite vague.



No, Jesus restored his true gospel and true church through the prophet Joseph Smith.



The "Mormon gospel" is the gospel of Christ -- that he, the Son of God, became a man, suffered and died for our sins, and grants us forgiveness conditional on our faith in him and obedience to his commandments, providing the means whereby we can be sanctified and become heirs to God, joint heirs with Christ.

Okay...let's stick to the gospel of Christ! You are proclaiming a gospel conditional upon obedience to his commandments, correct? How obedient do you need to be to be forgiven? Can you be forgiven one day because you had a good day in obeying the commands of God, and the next day not forgiven because of lack of obdience? Does God grade on a scale, or does He require perfection? Which commandments are necessary to obey, because there are quite a few in the Old Testament? The challenge is to proclaim the Mormon version of the gospel using only the Bible. When you use the Bible, all of scripture truth should be used. James chapter 2 is in harmony with the epistles of Paul.

 

[Scott C.]

BTW...do you come from a generational LDS household too?

I would answer, but the question seems to be off topic, but thanks for trying.

 

[Scott C.]

Okay...let's stick to the gospel of Christ! You are proclaiming a gospel conditional upon obedience to his commandments, correct? How obedient do you need to be to be forgiven? Can you be forgiven one day because you had a good day in obeying the commands of God, and the next day not forgiven because of lack of obdience? Does God grade on a scale, or does He require perfection? Which commandments are necessary to obey, because there are quite a few in the Old Testament? The challenge is to proclaim the Mormon version of the gospel using only the Bible. When you use the Bible, all of scripture truth should be used. James chapter 2 is in harmony with the epistles of Paul.

You need to do your best and God will do the rest. It's as simple as that.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

You need to do your best and God will do the rest. It's as simple as that.

Your statement cannot be supported by the Holy Bible. I encourage you try if you don't believe me. The purpose of this thread is to see if the Mormon Faith can be supported in the Christian Bible. Give it a try. :rainbow1:

 

[uss_bigd]

Well MR Fish-hunter!

If i may debate side by side with you today! Let me show you this:

The doctrines and covenants of the book of mormon violates 1 Tim 3:2. since two contradicting concepts cannot be both true, Joseph Smith couldn't have been sent by the same God that sent Jesus Christ of the bible.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Well MR Fish-hunter!

If i may debate side by side with you today!

The doctrines and covenants of the book of mormon violates 1 Tim 3:2. since two contradicting concepts cannot be both true, Joseph Smith couldn't have been sent by the same God that sent Jesus Christ of the bible.

Your participation is welcomed! Please give the LDS Christians the opportunity to prove their faith through the Christian Bible alone.

 

[uss_bigd]

Your participation is welcomed! Please give the LDS Christians the opportunity to prove their faith through the Christian Bible alone.

They can't. :no:

Mentioning 1 tim 3:1-5 will end it all...

 

[Sola'lor]

Well MR Fish-hunter!

If i may debate side by side with you today! Let me show you this:

The doctrines and covenants of the book of mormon violates 1 Tim 3:2. since two contradicting concepts cannot be both true, Joseph Smith couldn't have been sent by the same God that sent Jesus Christ of the bible.

You're still bringing this up? Didn't you get a good enough answer in the other thread? Or is it because you haven't converted any of us to you line of thinking yet.

You might as well bring up the 'Apostles last' thing too since that's probably where you'll take it any way.

 

[uss_bigd]

You're still bringing this up? Didn't you get a good enough answer in the other thread? Or is it because you haven't converted any of us to you line of thinking yet.

You might as well bring up the 'Apostles last' thing too since that's probably where you'll take it any way.

We don't have to go there my friend. Joseph Smith Wrote the mormon doctrine that was contradictory to 1 tim 3:1-5, end of story.

Two contradicting concepts cannot be both true, all you can do is justify or lead me to deviate from the bible saying that there other sources. if this other sources contradicts Christ its not worthy to be looked at all sir. co'z those who will teach a different christ must be accursed as one verse stated.

But the fact will always stand. The mormon doctrine contradicts real christian doctrine written in the bible specifically because your founder wanted 10 virgin wives, and 1 Tim. 1:2 states only one wife is allowed a bishop.

One wife is one wife, and 10 virgin are 10 virgins, how hard is that to understand.
and lastly, look at my signature!

 

[Sola'lor]

Firstly you need to revise that image you are using because it says Book of Mormon vs. Bible. That scripture selection is actually from the Doctrine and Covenants. If you actually want to represent truthfully you need to change that to show where it actually comes from. Unless of course you want to keep lying.

We don't have to go there my friend. Joseph Smith Wrote the mormon doctrine that was contradictory to 1 tim 3:1-5, end of story.

Two contradicting concepts cannot be both true, all you can do is justify or lead me to deviate from the bible saying that there other sources. if this other sources contradicts Christ its not worthy to be looked at all sir. co'z those who will teach a different christ must be accursed as one verse stated.

I'm not leading you to deviate from the Bible. I'm not deviating from it either. I don't have ten wives. I never will have ten wives. How is the modern doctrine of the Church or the original founding docrtine of the church of having only ONE wife contradictory?

Of course you aren't taking into account the Book of Mormon which condemns having more than one wife. So according to your argument the Book of Mormon is NOT contradictory to the BIble because it CONDEMNS polygamy.

But the fact will always stand. The mormon doctrine contradicts real christian doctrine written in the bible specifically because your founder wanted 10 virgin wives, and 1 Tim. 1:2 states only one wife is allowed a bishop.

Exactly it states only one wife was allowed to a bishop. That is speaking specifically of a bishop. It says nothing of any other office. Unless you are going to make an assumption that it applies to all other callings when it speaks only of a bishop.

Actually Joseph Smith had alot more than 10 wives.

One wife is one wife, and 10 virgin are 10 virgins, how hard is that to understand.

That's not hard to understand it all. What seems to be hard to understand is that God has the power and authority to reveal different thing to different people at different times. Using your arguement Abraham should be cursed because what he did contradicts what Christ taught. But then again Christ was the one who told Abraham, to do it. So Christ was contradicting Himself.

and lastly, look at my signature!

And.....

 

[uss_bigd]

That's not hard to understand it all. What seems to be hard to understand is that God has the power and authority to reveal different thing to different people at different times. Using your arguement Abraham should be cursed because what he did contradicts what Christ taught. But then again Christ was the one who told Abraham, to do it. So Christ was contradicting Himself.

Sigh! do you know the name of the hot chich in your avatar? its Angel Locsin!

1. Abraham lived in the OT and Christ became flesh and dwelt among us in the NT. When the priesthood was changed and so was the law. therefore plural marriages was discontinued from the OT to the NT. Therefore, Jesus can not contradict himself because of the time line.( OT time and NT time)

2. Joseph Smith Wrote your founding doctrine after Christ died, hence subject to the laws of Christ in the NT. He wrote a contradicting doctrine, hence he couldn't have been sent by the same God that sent Christ becasue two contradicting concept can not be both true.

What seems to be hard to understand is that God has the power and authority to reveal different thing to different people at different times.

This is what you use to bail your self out. its like you are saying that your church was allowed by God to be polygamous, and claim that he is the same God that sent Christ in the NT and prohibited polygamy. Can't you see your self serving interpretation of scripture. You speak of yourself and violate my signature.

 

[Scott C.]

The purpose of this thread is to see if the Mormon Faith can be supported in the Christian Bible. Give it a try. :rainbow1:

Every verse of the Bible from the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation is part of Mormon doctrine, so every Bibilical verse supports some aspect of what I believe. But, here's one of my favorite passages that captures well the meaning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, quoted from John 3:14-21:

14 ¶ And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 ¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


(BTW, the subjects are jumping all over the place in this thread. Right now I'm addressing only the question of "what is the gospel or good news, according to Mormons, and as supported by the Bible?")

 

[idea]

Note to Sola'lor, Orontes, idea, Starfish, DavyCrocket2003, Polaris, and Scott C:

A word to the wise. There are anti-Mormons who are willing to admit to your face that they're out to bash your beliefs. In an odd sort of way, they are to be commended for their honesty. There are other anti-Mormons who hide behind a mask of feigned interest and would like you to believe that they are genuinely trying to come to a better understanding of your beliefs, when in fact they will simply ignore everything you say and carry on as if you hadn't even answered their questions. They're also experts at sidestepping the issues when you turn the tables and start asking them questions. I suspect you all know this as well as I do. In the event that you don't know for sure which kind you're dealing with on this thread, I'm just giving you a heads up. Oh, and one more thing: Unless you're a first-generation convert who was raised agnostic in inner-city Detroit, you have nothing worthwhile to say anyway. If you were born in the Church, you couldn't possibly have made an informed decision about whether or not to accept the tenets of Mormonism.

For example, please read (if you haven't already) post #17 on this thread, in which the following statement was made: Authentic Christianity does not share the affections of Christ with another (Joseph Smith). When you exalt a mere man and a religious institution above the Almighty Triunie God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), it's called idol worship.

If Fish Hunter had paid the slightest bit of attention to anything I said in the many, many posts in which I patiently answered dozens of questions about LDS history and doctrine, he would not be making such an outlandish and knowingly false statement now. Since when did bearing false witness become the hallmark of an "authentic Christian" anyway?


PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE: :troll:

LOL! I am a "first generation" I am a convert - if that really matters to anyone. As far as not feeding the troll, just hoping that there are others who are not trolls... Read the book of Alma, in which Nehor teaches false doctrines - unless there is someone to stand forth and contend, he leads away many people...

Alma 1:7 And it came to pass as he was going, to preach to those who believed on his word, he met a man who belonged to the church of God, yea, even one of their teachers; and he began to contend with him sharply, that he might lead away the people of the church; but the man withstood him, admonishing him with the words of God.

DC 18:20 Contend against no church, save it be the church of the devil.

It is not that I enjoy contention, it is just that you can't sit by and let others who do not know get led astray...

 

[Fish-Hunter]

They can't. :no:

Mentioning 1 tim 3:1-5 will end it all...

I don't think we are trying to prove if some group is either right or wrong. I think we want to make sure that we all know the true and living God as their Heavenly Father. God shows mercy upon whom He shows mercy...through the Christ revealed in the Holy Bible. It is very possible uss_bigd that we do not know the same Christ. Therefore, from my perspective, I want you to know the Jesus Christ that I know.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

LOL! I am a "first generation" I am a convert - if that really matters to anyone. As far as not feeding the troll, just hoping that there are others who are not trolls... Read the book of Alma, in which Nehor teaches false doctrines - unless there is someone to stand forth and contend, he leads away many people...

Alma 1:7 And it came to pass as he was going, to preach to those who believed on his word, he met a man who belonged to the church of God, yea, even one of their teachers; and he began to contend with him sharply, that he might lead away the people of the church; but the man withstood him, admonishing him with the words of God.

DC 18:20 Contend against no church, save it be the church of the devil.

It is not that I enjoy contention, it is just that you can't sit by and let others who do not know get led astray...

I'm so glad that you are joining us, especially since you are a convert to the Mormon Faith. I guess Katzpur is calling me the troll. My motive is to make sure we all know the true and living God through the Christ revealed in the Holy Bible. I think this thread was started by your Mormon brother to see if Mormonism can be supported through the Holy Bible. I am saying that Mormonism is completely dependent on Mormon Holy Books such as The Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. Therefore, try to post scripture from the Holy Bible as compared to Mormon revelation to support your LDS position. Evangelical Christians do not consider The Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants as revelation from God. Instead we see these exclusive Mormon sources as man-made doctrines. I think Scott has the right idea. Give it a try and see if your Mormon Faith can hold up to the test of Holy Scripture alone.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Every verse of the Bible from the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation is part of Mormon doctrine, so every Bibilical verse supports some aspect of what I believe. But, here's one of my favorite passages that captures well the meaning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, quoted from John 3:14-21:

14 ¶ And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 ¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


(BTW, the subjects are jumping all over the place in this thread. Right now I'm addressing only the question of "what is the gospel or good news, according to Mormons, and as supported by the Bible?")

Thanks Scott for the Scripture references centered around the gospel. I have a busy day with work and personal commitments, therefore it may take awhile to respond. I am assuming that you come from a generational LDS household of faith unless you say otherwise. I know you use the KJV. Try bible.com if you want to read other English translations. You can paste and copy the Bible verses from there too.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

But, here's one of my favorite passages that captures well the meaning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, quoted from John 3:14-21:

14 ¶ And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 ¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


(BTW, the subjects are jumping all over the place in this thread. Right now I'm addressing only the question of "what is the gospel or good news, according to Mormons, and as supported by the Bible?")

Scott, I edited your first statement above and can now agree 100% with your posting of John 3:14-21 as a wonderfu revelation of the gospel of God, or the great good news of God. Below is a link to the Mormon Gospel from lds.org. When you compare John 3:14-21 with the Mormon view of the gospel, you will find them to be in direct contradiction with each other. Do you see what I mean? You will see it if you do not go beyond John 3:14-21 in your understanding of the gospel of grace. Here's the link:

Mormon.org - God is your loving Heavenly Father

 

[Orontes]

Hello,

You didn't address my post I therefore take the content there dealt with. You have addressed other posts. If I may, the above is confused. It is confused on at least two basic points. One, it does not accurately convey Mormon belief. Two, it fails to understand the thrust of that belief. To point one: this is the quote from the First Vision:

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”​

The creeds are utterly rejected as abominations and the professors who were their source corrupt, teaching the commandments of men as doctrine. The above is not an indictment of all Christians. Rather, it is an indictment of the Creeds and their source.

To point two: the source of the belief is Deity. The one who speaks to Joseph is God. Therefore to assume that God cannot speak concerning Himself or the true is to fail to understand basic revelation. The objection is tantamount to rejecting Peter's revelation in Acts which led to baptizing Cornelius, theretofore deemed unclean, because the Mosaic Law had already been established.


Per the Apostasy, the above is a simple illustration. This determinism is a product of Medieval Theology (though Calvin is the most systemic in its use). It rests upon an absurdity. I'll explain, if God is always in control of all things then God is responsible for all those things controlled. Evil acts would be included under "all things". Therefore, God is responsible for the evil and thus is evil. The absurdity of the deterministic view can be played out further: if God is in control of all things, then any Mormon is a Mormon by Divine will. Therefore any who seeks to work against that condition is actually working contrary to God. Do you see?

If the Apostasy were not true, then one is left with a religion that contains mutually exclusive (contradictory) truth claims along sectarian lines and an overarching theology that is Hellenistic.

I'm sorry if I have not responded to your posting. It is unintentional. For a Bible Chrsitian, the LDS claims are extremely offensive....in the same way that you may find my postings to be offensive in regards to the Mormon religion. If we can all understand that our faiths are built upon the source of revelation we believe to be authorative and trustworthy, we should be able to understand each other. Just because a Roman Catholic believes the Bible to be true, it is not authorative to the Roman Catholic because sacred tradition goes together with scripture. The Holy Bible cannot be authorative in the LDS Faith based on your central belief of the apostasy. The Book of Mormon and other official Mormon sources will always override biblical revelation understood with the faith of sola scriptura. We all come into this discussion with our own pressupositions that will determine what we are able to spirituality see. We all believe that the Holy Spirit is illuminating truth to us, but they are contradictory perceptions of truth. Therefore, the Holy Spirit is not working in both the LDS religion alongside the evangelical Chrisitian community. It is an impossibility. Do you identify yourself as a Christian first, or a Mormon first, or being a Mormon-Christian? The term LDS Christian is a relatively new one, but I can accept it.

This statement is curious:

For a Bible Chrsitian, the LDS claims are extremely offensive....in the same way that you may find my postings to be offensive in regards to the Mormon religion.​

Why would one be offended by different beliefs? If I speak with a Jew who doesn't believe Jesus is the Messiah, his lack of belief isn't reason for offense. If I speak with a Zen Buddhist who doesn't believe in any God, again that difference doesn't justify offense. Offense is a term for breeches of etiquette or moral precept. Different metaphysical positions or different rituals in and of themselves are neither issues of etiquette nor morality. Therefore taking offense seems problematic. For example, based on your earlier post you subscribe to a determinism that is a logical absurdity. Even so, I couldn't nor wouldn't be offended by that. You are free to belief as you will.

The judgment about "Bible Christians" is also odd. It seems you qualify Bible Christians as only those who hold to sola scriptura. This is a problem given the Tradition that produced the Bible didn't hold such a view (sola scriptura itself is a product of the 16th Century). By rejecting the tradition that produced the Bible you really have no basis for judging the Gospel of Mathew as scripture over say the Gospel of Thomas beyond personal whimsy.

Your comment of what is authoritative for Roman Catholics and Mormons is confused. Authority refers to any object of appeal that can be used to decide an issue. Both Roman Catholics and Mormons consider the Bible authoritative. Neither believe in inerrancy however. I have already noted the problems with inerrancy.

As far as the Holy Sprit influencing different faiths and different faiths holding conflicting views: your stance is not the same as a Mormon stance. Mormonism can comfortably hold that the Lord's spirit informs and motivates people of good will in disparate faiths or no faith tradition. Different faiths may and do have conflicting views. However, the Lord seeks the good of all and therefore should concern Himself with all. However, men see through a glass darkly and thus can only be justly judged based on the knowledge that they have at any given time. The rub is whether a man continues after light and knowledge and thus follows the spirit where it will lead, or falls back into the comfort of a chosen dogmatism.

As far as how I identify myself: it depends on the context and who is being addressed. If I were speaking with a Hindu who asked about my general affiliation, I may say Christian or Mormon and then explain Mormons are a sect of Christianity like Roman Catholics, Baptists etc.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Below is a link to the Mormon Gospel from lds.org. When you compare John 3:14-21 with the Mormon view of the gospel, you will find them to be in direct contradiction with each other. Do you see what I mean? You will see it if you do not go beyond John 3:14-21 in your understanding of the gospel of grace. Here's the link:

Mormon.org - God is your loving Heavenly Father

I read the link, and I don't see how it contradicts John. It seems to be perfectly compatible to me. I guess you will claim that it is my Mormon preconditioning that causes me to see this. Maybe. I would claim that it is your preconceived notions that cause you to see the two scriptures as incongruent. Anyway, I like them both.