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LDS beliefs and the Bible

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Sola'lor, Apr 22, 2008.

  1. Sola'lor

    Sola'lor LDSUJC

    Messages:
    1,871
    This thread is a continuation of a discussion from another thread.

    The main topic of this will be these questions in Fish-Hunter's post. But I gave the thread a more general name because I'm sure there will be other topics about Mormon beliefs and the Bible that could be discussed here too.

    I'll answer these questions shortly.
     
  2. Sola'lor

    Sola'lor LDSUJC

    Messages:
    1,871
    Here's some biblical scriptures in support of the apostacy. Now what we mean by apostacy is not the Christianity would leave the earth. We believe that apostacy is when some one turns away from gospel. For example if the catholic church is the church that decended directly from the church that Christ established then they are in apostacy. This is because they have turned away from the doctrines and organization that Christ establish. Another part of apostacy is that the Apostles hold the keys to the priesthood. When they were killed there was no one left holding the keys to the priesthood and thus the priesthood could not be used by church leadeers after that.

    Here's some scriptures.

    Isaiah 24:5
    5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

    Acts 20: 28-30
    28 ¶ Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
    29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
    30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

    2 Timothy 4:3, 4
    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
    4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

    The verses from Amos 8 also make support this. Those are some that were listed as references on LDs.org. This one wasn't listed in the references but it's a good one too.

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
    1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
     
  3. Sola'lor

    Sola'lor LDSUJC

    Messages:
    1,871
    Here's some Biblical scriptures that support the Restoration of the Gospel:

    Isaiah 2:1-3
    1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
    2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
    3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

    Isaiah 19:13,14
    13 ¶ Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
    14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

    Acts 3:19-21
    19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
    20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    Revelation 14:6-7
    6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
    7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
     
  4. Fish-Hunter

    Fish-Hunter Rejoice in the Lord!

    Messages:
    1,182
    Thanks so much for starting the thread and posting the scirpture references. I will try to get to it when time allows. I will be able to find it under "My Replies". In the mean time, could you please share your LDS testimony? Did you convert to the Mormon Faith from a Christian household? Do you live in Utah? What convinced you that the Mormon Faith is the true restoration of the apparent apostate historical Christian church? It seems 188 years is quite a short period of time to nullify the work of God of the previous 1,812 years of New Testament history? If God is sovereign, why do you think the church was aspostate for over 1,800 years? Was God unable or too weak and anemic to keep His promise to the bride of Christ that the Savior purchased by His own blood? Remember, the proper context of a biblical passage is the entire Scriptures of 66 books.

    I would like to read your answers before we attempt to explore Holy Scripture together. I found Katzpur's background to be very helpful in my understanding where she was comming from. Katzpur, as you know, was born into a generational Mormon household, and lives in Salt Lake City. We all have presuppositions, but are our presuppositions true? Are we comming to a religious debate with blinders on? Maybe we should take off our blinders before we start too.
     
  5. kai

    kai ragamuffin Staff Member

    Messages:
    16,610
    what exactly were the doctrines and organisation that christ established?
     
  6. Sola'lor

    Sola'lor LDSUJC

    Messages:
    1,871
    No Problem.

    My testimony of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints comes from all the experiences I've had in this life. Through my experiences and prayers I know that the Book of Mormon is a true book of scripture. It is definatly inspired of God. I have learned so many things from it and many of itg's teachings have helped me through certain times in my life. I know that Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God. The work brought about through Him has not only helped me but has helped millions of people around the world. Many of those people are not part of the church. I have recieved so many blessings from this Church and it has helped me greatly improve myself. But more importantly than all that I know that Jesus Christ is the Saviour of all mankind. He is the only begotten Son of God and only through Him can we return to our Heavenly Father.

    Well first I consider the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to be a Christian church. But My parents were both members of this church and I was baptized at eight years old. Some people call this being 'born of the covenant.' but I still consider myself a convert. This conversion proccess started when I was eight years old and continues to the present day with each new thing I learn or with each improvement I can make in my obedience to God's commandments.

    I was born in Utah and lived there for about one month before my parents moved to Idaho. I've lived in Idaho for all of my life except for two years of my mission I spent in the Philippines.

    Well there wasn't one specific moment. Rather it has been a lifelong period of study, learning, and questioning. I've had many experiences that have shown to my satisfaction that the church is true.
     
  7. Fish-Hunter

    Fish-Hunter Rejoice in the Lord!

    Messages:
    1,182
    Thanks again for the additional information. Therefore, you are a generational Mormon born into a Mormon household of faith. How far back does your geneology go back to the Mormon Church? Does your family tree have any relations to some of the founders or leaders of the Mormon Church? Would you consider Idaho a Mormon friendly state since it is adjacent to Utah, being very close to Salt Lake City (LDS Vatican)? How long ago was your Mormon missionary trip to the Philipines? Did you minister in Manila, and did you learn first hand about the stronghold bondage of Roman Catholicism in a predominate Roman Catholic country? Did you find any similarities between Roman Catholicism and Mormonism such as apostolic succession and additional extra-biblical revelation?
     
  8. Fish-Hunter

    Fish-Hunter Rejoice in the Lord!

    Messages:
    1,182
    I rely on the Holy Spirit as He reveals the truth through the Holy Bible alone. The spirit that you follow speaks through various revelations contrary to the Bible such as your quotes from the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants. The LDS Faith has an extremely low view of the scriptures (Holy Bible) because you believe the Bible has been compromised by the apparent apostasy. I believe in the sufficiency of Scriptures (Holy Bible). Your faith is built upon the insufficiency of Scriptures, banking on the corruption of the Holy Bible. I suggest that you join the new thread created by Sola'lor in debating the LDS Faith through the light of the Bible alone. The scriptures from the Holy Bible highlighted in blue are to be reflected upon and could be speaking about the LDS Church as compared to the historical Christian church. As we both know, the quotes highlighted in red are not considered revelation from God from those outside the LDS Faith. In addition, your quote of Matthew 16 is also used by the Roman Catholic church to support apostolic succession and the papacy. The true church of God is not a religious institution like the Roman Catholic Church organization, or the Mormon Church organization. The true church of God is made up of all individuals (redeemed sinners) throughout redemptive history that God united to Christ through faith.

    __________________
     
  9. Orontes

    Orontes Master of the Horse

    Messages:
    951
    Religion:
    LDS
    Hello,

    If the following is the issue on the table: "Do you mind presenting a case for the entire apostasy of the 1st century through the 19th century church through the Christian Bible." then there is an error at least as it has to do with Mormon positioning. The Apostasy, like Christianity itself, predates the compilation of the Bible. The Bible is a product of the latter 4th Century. I know of no Mormons that hold that original Christianity survived into the late 4th Century.
     
  10. Fish-Hunter

    Fish-Hunter Rejoice in the Lord!

    Messages:
    1,182
    If the Mormon Church considers the Holy Bible to be distorted and corrupt, why do you guys still use it? Your Mormon missionaries use the bait and switch tactics of used car salesmen. You use the Holy Bible (bait) to enter an unsuspecting household, and make the switch with the Book of Mormon. The technique is quite effective for those who are unaware of what the Mormon Church really believes.
     
  11. idea

    idea Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,209
    We have the JST version that clears it all up :) I love the Bible and all that it teaches, but believe in a living God who still guides His people - not a dead god who has stopped writing scripture...

    In any event – if all it took was the possession of a Bible to understand God, there would not be such divisions among the Christian faiths who use the Bible. The scribes and Pharisees had parts of the Bible in their own language, probably not distorted much – and they did not understand it. Modern day prophets are needed… more than just listening to and reading the words, acting on them is where you really come to understand.

    The Bible is not complete:
    Lost scriptures: There are many sacred writings mentioned in the scriptures that we do not have today, among which are these books and writers:
    the covenant (Ex. 24:7),
    the wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14),
    Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18),
    the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:41),
    Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29:29),
    Nathan the prophet (2 Chr. 9:29),
    Shemaiah the prophet (2 Chr. 12:15),
    Iddo the prophet (2 Chr. 13:22),
    Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34),
    the sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33:19),
    Enoch (Jude 1:14),
    and epistles to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9),
    to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3), and from Laodicea (Col. 4:16).

    Just out of curiosity, how do you interpret the following scriptures?

    Isa. 29:11–14. 11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
    12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.

    What is the book – and who is the person who is not learned?

    Ezekiel 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
    17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.

    The stick of Judah is of course the record of the Jewish people – the Bible. What would you say is the stick of Ephraim?
     
  12. Starfish

    Starfish Please no sarcasm

    Messages:
    2,391
    May I add my 2 cents? I don't see the Bible as corrupt and distorted. It still contains huge amounts of truth, and invaluable teachings. It contains the life of Christ, and his words. We revere the Bible.
    However, parts have been lost. Parts have been somewhat changed over the centuries to where the meaning is unclear, but still discernable through the help of the Holy Ghost. We believe with the help of the Book of Mormon and revelation from God, we are able to discern the truth from the Bible. We use it regularly in our pursuit to draw closer to Christ.
     
  13. DavyCrocket2003

    DavyCrocket2003 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,434
    How so?:confused: What do you mean by "What the Mormon Church really believes"?

    The bible isn't so much corrupt as incomplete. Do you claim that the Bible is a sufficient source of knowledge from which to obtain all truth about God? If yes, how can we acount for the plethora of Christian Churches? Are most of us just reading the Bible wrong and one group happens to have gotten it right? How does one go about differentiating between conlflicting claims?
     
  14. Polaris

    Polaris New Member

    Messages:
    951
    OK, so where do the scriptures teach that prophets, apostles and revelation ended with the NT? I would argue that it declares quite clearly the opposite to be true. God has always lead his people through living prophets and/or apostles.

    That's not true. How are the teachings of the Book of Mormon, etc, contrary to the teachings of the Bible?

    Again not true. We believe the Bible to be the word of God. We hold it in very high regard. What we place little trust in is man's ability to accurately interpret the teachings of the Bible. Thus the need for continuing revelation to God's appointed living prophets and apostles.

    Once again not true. Our faith is built upon the foundation that the Savior himself established, a foundation of prophets, apostles and revelation with Christ being the chief corner. Our faith has nothing to do with banking on the corruption of the Bible. It has everything to do with our belief that God speaks to man today just as he did in every other dispensation of spiritual truth.

    It is true that the church of God is more than just a religious institution. It is a divine and living organization that is governed by Christ himself through revelation to his ordained prophets and apostles, who are authorized to perform saving ordinances and teach and clarify spiritual truths.

    From the Bible (Ephesians 4:11-14)...

    11. And he gave some apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers;
    12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    This seems quite clear that prophets and apostles were intended to always be part of Christ's church.
     
  15. Scott C.

    Scott C. Mormon Boy

    Messages:
    1,638
    You under estimate the LDS love for and acceptance of the Bible. I've read the New Testament many times, when I'm alone, and not trying the bait and switch you accuse us of. I love the NT. It offers truth about Jesus that is uniquely presented in it's pages. Yes, I believe in other scriptures also.
     
  16. Fish-Hunter

    Fish-Hunter Rejoice in the Lord!

    Messages:
    1,182
    I'm glad to hear that!
     
  17. Fish-Hunter

    Fish-Hunter Rejoice in the Lord!

    Messages:
    1,182
    Hebrews 1 -The Son Superior to Joseph Smith

    In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

    Col 1 - The Supremacy of Christ

    He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

    Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

    Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

    We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. 29To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me.

    Authentic Christianity does not share the affections of Christ with another (Joseph Smith). When you exalt a mere man and a religious institution above the Almighty Triunie God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), it's called idol worship.

    Luke 14:26:
    "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.
     
  18. Sola'lor

    Sola'lor LDSUJC

    Messages:
    1,871
    Four or five generations. I'm not sure exactly thought. My fiancee is a first generation convert.

    Not that I'm aware of.

    I thinkit's pretty mormon friendly. At least the southern half. I haven't been further up north so I'm not sure.

    Over two years ago.

    Nope. I was In primarily assigned in Ilocos Norte, Ilocos Sur, and a short time in Baguio.

    What to you mean bondage of Roman Catholicism?

    I really didn't find that many similarities. But I learned alot more about the Roman Catholic church than I even knew before.
     
  19. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

    Messages:
    25,148
    Religion:
    LDS Christian
    Note to Sola'lor, Orontes, idea, Starfish, DavyCrocket2003, Polaris, and Scott C:

    A word to the wise. There are anti-Mormons who are willing to admit to your face that they're out to bash your beliefs. In an odd sort of way, they are to be commended for their honesty. There are other anti-Mormons who hide behind a mask of feigned interest and would like you to believe that they are genuinely trying to come to a better understanding of your beliefs, when in fact they will simply ignore everything you say and carry on as if you hadn't even answered their questions. They're also experts at sidestepping the issues when you turn the tables and start asking them questions. I suspect you all know this as well as I do. In the event that you don't know for sure which kind you're dealing with on this thread, I'm just giving you a heads up. Oh, and one more thing: Unless you're a first-generation convert who was raised agnostic in inner-city Detroit, you have nothing worthwhile to say anyway. If you were born in the Church, you couldn't possibly have made an informed decision about whether or not to accept the tenets of Mormonism.

    For example, please read (if you haven't already) post #17 on this thread, in which the following statement was made: Authentic Christianity does not share the affections of Christ with another (Joseph Smith). When you exalt a mere man and a religious institution above the Almighty Triunie God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), it's called idol worship.

    If Fish Hunter had paid the slightest bit of attention to anything I said in the many, many posts in which I patiently answered dozens of questions about LDS history and doctrine, he would not be making such an outlandish and knowingly false statement now. Since when did bearing false witness become the hallmark of an "authentic Christian" anyway?


    PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE: :troll:
     
    Mestemia and Scott C. like this.
  20. DavyCrocket2003

    DavyCrocket2003 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,434
    I too enjoy reading the New Testament. Especially John! The message and spirit of Christ just seems to come through so powerfully! It's incredible!

    I don't think you will find much argument as to Christ's superiority to Joseph Smith. All Mormons believe that.
     
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