LDS beliefs and the Bible

[Polaris]

Okay...let's stick to the gospel of Christ! You are proclaiming a gospel conditional upon obedience to his commandments, correct?

Let me clarify. Our salvation over death, ie the resurrection, is not conditional. All men will be saved from death - "as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Corinth. 15-22). However our salvation over sin is conditional upon our faith and obedience, hence the need for final judgement - "call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work" ... "seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth" (1 Peter 1:17-22). The grace of Christ provides us savlation over death and makes possible our salvation over sin according to our faithfulness.

How obedient do you need to be to be forgiven? Can you be forgiven one day because you had a good day in obeying the commands of God, and the next day not forgiven because of lack of obdience? Does God grade on a scale, or does He require perfection?

Only God knows those answers. He is our ultimate judge.

The challenge is to proclaim the Mormon version of the gospel using only the Bible. When you use the Bible, all of scripture truth should be used.

All scriptures I have quoted have come from the Bible and all are in complete harmony with LDS teachings.

James chapter 2 is in harmony with the epistles of Paul.

I agree. Works alone do nothing for us. We need faith and good works -- "faith, if it hath not works is dead", "by works faith is made perfect", "by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" (James 2).

So there you have it. I have proclaimed the "Mormon version of the gospel" using only the Bible, thereby showing that the Mormon version of the gospel is indeed the Biblical version of the gospel.

 

[idea]

What the LDS believe about Jesus
link



If you are interested in a convert, then here is part of my conversion story, from my personal history... I think anyone who has a testimony is a convert though.

One Sunday, with nothing better to do, I tagged along to church. *** was assigned to teach a class of 12 and 13 year olds, I did not know anyone else at the church, and not mature/brave enough to just go into a meeting on my own so I followed *** into class, and sat down with the other little kids. A little embarrassing for an adult to be sitting in on a primary class, but I would have been embarrassed anywhere I went. The class was on the plan of salvation. *** drew on the board circles and lines representing the pre-existence, earth, prison/paradise, and the celestial/telestial/terrestrial glories. As I sat looking at the chalkboard the Holy Ghost bore a powerful witness to me that what I was looking at was true – it was what Budhists would call “enlightenment” my mind was literally opened so that for a few powerful moments I knew what I was looking at was true – and what was more, I became aware of a power in the room that was above and beyond what my eyes were telling me was there. It was the moment that changed everything – where religion went from people trying to be goodie-two-shoes stuck-up self-righteous prideful control freaks trying to manipulate me and force me into guilt trips – sorry – but that had become my viewpoint of Christian churches – Religion became real...

Might I add that I do not have any mental health problems, am not on any medications or anything. I was not seeking this experience, I was embarrassed in front of all the kids - the environment was not one to really merit a "religious" experience, a bunch of squirmy kids climbing up the walls... It was real, the Holy spirit is real and can communicate with you...

The athiests are always looking for "proof" of God. Perhaps He gives us the free will to believe or not by not manifesting Himself to us at first... In any event, I now know that He exists, there is no doubt in my mind that there is more around us than our eyes let on...

Other doctrines that further led me to the LDS church:

our pre-existence, the immortal intelligence, that God is not responsible for creating evil, that we actually do have free agency and chose to come here...

The nature of God - not some confusing trinity thing, but that we are made in His image, male and female after our Heavenly Mother and Father. The nature of God – that He is just and merciful and Loving… Not hypocritical.

Modern day prophets and apostles, organization of the church now as it was organized at the time of Jesus.

Additional scripture, God rules the entire Earth not just the Jewish people.

Baptisms for the dead - not condemning everyone else to hell, instead doing proxy baptisms for them so that all have equal opportunity for everything. Temples and temple work.

Nature of heaven – the possibility of eternal progression rather than an infinity of sitting around on clouds playing harps – heaven is a place of Purpose and Meaning.

Eternal Families.

OK – I’ll stop my list now.

Compatibility between scriptures
Link
Link

Just click on any topic, you will be directed to Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of great Price, and Doctrine and Covenant scriptures that all agree with one another. (Click the letter, then click the topci, then get the scriptures - two clicks to get there)

 

[Scott C.]

Scott, I edited your first statement above and can now agree 100% with your posting of John 3:14-21 as a wonder revleation of the gospel of God, or the great good news of God. Below is a link to the Mormon Gospel from lds.org. When you compare John 3:14-21 with the Mormon view of the gospel, you will find them to be in direct contradiction with each other. Do you see what I mean? You will see it if you do not go beyond John 3:14-21 in your understanding of the gospel of grace. Here's the link:

Mormon.org - God is your loving Heavenly Father

ummm...I read the link and you lost me on your concern.

 

[Katzpur]

The doctrines and covenants of the book of mormon violates 1 Tim 3:2. since two contradicting concepts cannot be both true, Joseph Smith couldn't have been sent by the same God that sent Jesus Christ of the bible.

Marc,

There is no such thing as the doctrines and covenants of the book of mormon, nor is there a Book of Mormons. If you're going to debate the validity of LDS doctrine, you really ought to take the time to get your facts straight. Otherwise, it's pretty unlikely that anyone is going to take you very seriously.

If you see 1 Timothy 3:2 as contradicting LDS doctrine, you might want to consider the fact that there are literally dozens of instances in which the various books of the Bible contain facts which contradict each other. If you doubt that what I am saying is true, I would be happy to provide you with a number of examples. You can't very well hold the Book of Mormon to a standard you are willing to ignore with respect to the Bible.

 

[uss_bigd]

you might want to consider the fact that there are literally dozens of instances in which the various books of the Bible contain facts which contradict each other.

Now this type of reasoning is exactly the reason why some athiest say Christians are weird. one athiest told me that Chrsitian proclaim to know the truth when they exactly contradict each other and worse contradict ourselves

In a previous thread you always give that expression " I don't disagree with that scripture" now you discredit or devalue the very basis of the Christian faith. Don't even start engaging me with "thats not the only source nonesense" the point is your chruch claim to have based its teachings in the bible that you are trying to discredit right now. Your church claims to follow the same christ in the bible, and claim that your prophet was sent by God to restore the church in the west.

Then, sadly you make a statement such as the one above, that the bible is full of contradictions it self. unfortunately in doing so you contradicted your entire faith. you're only way our is recanting you ever based on the bible to begin with.


No wonder athiest finds Christianity wierd. feel free to throw in what you claim as contradictions in the bible. through God's help and mercy i will prove whose misled here.

Peace!

There is no such thing as the doctrines and covenants of the book of mormon, nor is there a Book of Mormons. If you're going to debate the validity of LDS doctrine, you really ought to take the time to get your facts straight. Otherwise, it's pretty unlikely that anyone is going to take you very seriously.

What ever you call it then, sol 'or already took ownership that what i pasted belonged to the LDS church.:yes:

Again, Peace Katspur

 

[uss_bigd]

I think we want to make sure that we all know the true and living God as their Heavenly Father. God shows mercy upon whom He shows mercy...through the Christ revealed in the Holy Bible.

I dont want to think that you just made me sound like i am condemning people.

That is not at all my intention here, i was answering your thread MR. Fishunter! I was just truthfull and sincere of what is written in the bible.

I am just inline with how the apostle Paul thinks he said

1 Thessalonians 2:4
On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts.



Again mr Fish-hunter, i do not believe that anyone is condemned so don't make look like i believe that is the case. what i belive was that the apostles, specifically Paul were sent to the gentiles to "open their eyes" meaning people are misled. It is a christian's duty that through God's help and mercy show the righteous that they know.

 

[Katzpur]

When you compare John 3:14-21 with the Mormon view of the gospel, you will find them to be in direct contradiction with each other. Do you see what I mean?

No. I see them as being 100% in agreement.

John 3:14-21 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Mormon 7:5-7 Know ye that ye must come to the knowledge of your fathers, and repent of all your sins and iniquities, and believe in Jesus Christ, that he is the Son of God, and that he was slain by the Jews, and by the power of the Father he hath risen again, whereby he hath gained the victory over the grave; and also in him is the sting of death swallowed up. And he bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead, whereby man must be raised to stand before his judgment-seat. And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

Moroni 7:2-13 And now I, Mormon, speak unto you, my beloved brethren; and it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, and his holy will, because of the gift of his calling unto me, that I am permitted to speak unto you at this time. Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven. And now my brethren, I judge these things of you because of your peaceable walk with the children of men. For I remember the word of God, which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also. For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing. For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness. For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God. And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such. Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift. For behold, a bitter fountain cannot bring forth good water; neither can a good fountain bring forth bitter water; wherefore, a man being a servant of the devil cannot follow Christ; and if he follow Christ he cannot be a servant of the devil. Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually. But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.

They sound like exactly the same gospel to me.

You will see it if you do not go beyond John 3:14-21 in your understanding of the gospel of grace.

Well, there's your problem. You are basing your understanding of the doctrine on grace on a mere eight verses from the Bible. Why on earth would anyone want to "not go beyond John 3:14-21" to understand such a fundamental concept when he could read the entire New Testament?

 

[uss_bigd]

It is very possible uss_bigd that we do not know the same Christ. Therefore, from my perspective, I want you to know the Jesus Christ that I know.

Coincidentally i started a Thread exactly like that. why? true Christians are warned

2 Corinthians 11:13-14
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ, And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.:bow:

Again, in the line the church in the bible's thinking.

2 Corinthians 13:7
Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.


In a nutshell, I pray that everyone of you does what is honest, and follows what is honest even if i would be considered a reprobate!

 

[Katzpur]

In a previous thread you always give that expression " I don't disagree with that scripture" now you discredit or devalue the very basis of the Christian faith.

You have apparently misinterpreted my intentions. It is in no way my intention to try to discredit the Bible, and I had seriously hoped that you wouldn't back me into a wall over this issue. However, since you are so convinced that you couldn't possibly be wrong, and have made a pretty slanderous accusation against me, please consider these examples:

Which did God create first -- man or beast? Genesis 1 contradicts Genesis 2:

Genesis 1:25-26 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 2:18-19 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

What is the value of wisdom? Proverbs describes wisdom in one way and Ecclesiastes in a completely opposite way:

Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

Did God tell Moses that killing was wrong? That depends upon which book you read.

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill.

Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Can God be seen or not? There are many contradictory verses on this subject, among them these, which say He can:

Exodus 33:11 And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.

Genesis 32:30 For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

And these which say He can't:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time.

Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live.

Does God temp man? Genesis says yes; James says no.

Genesis 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

Who has been to heaven? 2 Kings says Elijah was, but John says only Christ has.

2 Kings 2:11 And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

John 3:13 No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man.

Do we all sin?

Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

How should we respond to the fool, by answering him or ignoring him?

Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

When Saul/Paul was converted, did those who were with him hear anyone? One chapter of Acts says yes; another says no.

Acts 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Should we make others aware of our good deeds? One chapter in Matthew says we should; another says we shouldn't.

Matthew 5:16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.

Matthew 6:3-4 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secert. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Are we responsible for bearing our own burdens or not?

Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Galatians 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

Who is for Jesus? Who is against Him?

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me.

Luke 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

Don't even start engaging me with "thats not the only source nonesense" the point is your chruch claim to have based its teachings in the bible that you are trying to discredit right now.

If you want to debate with me, Marc, don't tell me what I can say and what I can't say. I haven't done that to you, and I deserve the same consideration. I am not attempting to discredit the Bible. I love the Bible. I am simply saying that there are numerous examples of contradictory statements made within its pages. (Please note my underlining, in particular.)

Sadly you make a statement such as the one above, that the bible is full of contradictions it self. unfortunately in doing so you contradicted your entire faith. you're only way our is recanting you ever based on the bible to begin with.

I have not contradicted my entire faith. I have given you a dozen examples to support my initial contention. I could give you perhaps two dozen more. I will not recant what I believe: The Bible is the Word of God, but it did not come down to us in perfect form. God does not make mistakes but men do, and like it or not, human beings were involved in recording, transcribing and translating the Bible. My faith is based on the Bible, but not on the Bible alone. It is based upon all of what God has said and will continue to say. Unlike you, I am open to hearing everything He sees fit to reveal to us, and have not restricted myself to a single book.

Feel free to throw in what you claim as contradictions in the bible. through God's help and mercy i will prove whose misled here.

I don't care whether you even bother to do so, Marc. These contradictions don't bother me in the slightest because I recognize that none of them is all that significant in terms of the gospel message. The fact that they exist does not weaken my faith in the slightest.

Again, Peace Katspur

Do me one favor, okay? Save the "peace" bit for somebody you haven't just got through insulting.

 

[uss_bigd]

You have apparently misinterpreted my intentions. It is in no way my intention to try to discredit the Bible, and I had seriously hoped that you wouldn't back me into a wall over this issue. However, since you are so convinced that you couldn't possibly be wrong, and have made a pretty slanderous accusation against me, please consider these examples:

Which did God create first -- man or beast? Genesis 1 contradicts Genesis 2:

whew! that was a long list. before i start answering them. what made you sure that the teachings you adopted from the bible are not part of the contradictions you claim exists?

Are you saying you are choosing what to beleive in the bible?

If i was searching for a church, and i encounter this thread. how can you prove to me that the bible you say is the word of God is reliable when you yourself exposed that it is full of contradictions?

How will you then reconcile that with the book of mormon? (which i think is the purpose of this thread)

In summary you have to prove that the teachings you adopted are not part of the contradictions you claim exists in the bible.

How will you prove that all your sources are reliable when you claimed the bible is full of contradictions. that your church condemned polygamy contradicting the written doctrine its very founder wrote.

You said it your self, men make mistakes so does that mean we are hopelwss and cannot find the pure and undefiled religion desccribed in the book of James?

Athiest will feast on this ... it is sad!

 

[DeepShadow]

She already answered you: "I recognize that none of them is all that significant in terms of the gospel message." These contradictions are only differences in minor details, not part of the overall gospel message. Her point is quite valid regarding polygamy: polygamy is not part of the overall gospel message, but merely an addendum from time to time. An addendum can be changed--creating a factual contradiction--without changing the overall message.

This is how the Book of Mormon can condemn polygamy while the Doctrine and Covenants can support it. They were spoken at different times, to different audiences. The icing changes, but the cake is still the same.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

I dont want to think that you just made me sound like i am condemning people.

That is not at all my intention here, i was answering your thread MR. Fishunter! I was just truthfull and sincere of what is written in the bible.

I am just inline with how the apostle Paul thinks he said

1 Thessalonians 2:4
On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to be entrusted with the gospel. We are not trying to please men but God, who tests our hearts.



Again mr Fish-hunter, i do not believe that anyone is condemned so don't make look like i believe that is the case. what i belive was that the apostles, specifically Paul were sent to the gentiles to "open their eyes" meaning people are misled. It is a christian's duty that through God's help and mercy show the righteous that they know.

Well my friend, I think the Bible has a different view than yourself. The Bible teaches that we are all condemned in Adam (Rom 5). We are all born in enmity with God because we are born as part of the old creation that is in rebellion against the Creator. Therefore, universally all men are in a condemned state, running from the light because of their guilt as sinners. We all love the darkness and not the light unless or until God intervenes and grants us spiritual eyes to see "the Jesus Christ revealed in the Bible alone" as being desirable (act of sovereign grace). All have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death. This universal bad news of condemnation is revealed in Romans chapter 1 through general revelation (nature), and the moral law and conscience in Romans chapter 2. Romans 3 reveals that all are guilty and condemned. Romans chapter 5 reveals that Adam represented all humanity in his one act of disobedience. Everyone is condemned under the wrath of God... born into this world as children of disobedience, children of wrath, and children of the Devil. This is Biblical revelation and not man-made doctrine that will itch the ears. Biblical revelation is never friendly to the flesh and is always going against the flow of religious pluralism. I would even say that religious pluralism is mutually exclusive from authentic Christianity revealed through Scripture revelation alone. The versions of Jesus Christ revealed outside of scripture alone will be comfortable to the old nature, and will be developed into a religious pluralistic Christ without power, because that Christ is imaginary (false Christ).

Romans 5

But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

1 Corinthians 15

Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[Katzpur]

whew! that was a long list. before i start answering them. what made you sure that the teachings you adopted from the bible are not part of the contradictions you claim exists?

Fortunately, we don't have to guess. We having a living prophet, a man through whom God speaks today just as He did anciently. He holds the same keys of authority Jesus gave to Peter, and is assisted in his calling by Twelve Apostles. This is the same organization Paul spoke of in Ephesians 4:11-14 when he said that the foundation upon which Christ built His Church should continue to exist until we all come into a unity of the faith. He said that without it, we would all be "children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine."

Are you saying you are choosing what to beleive in the bible?

I'm saying precisely the opposite. With a spokesman appointed by God Himself, we don't need to sort this out for ourselves.

If i was searching for a church, and i encounter this thread. how can you prove to me that the bible you say is the word of God is reliable when you yourself exposed that it is full of contradictions?

(1) Well, for starters, I wouldn't make a claim I couldn't substantiate, as you have done. (2) I would suggest that you read James 1:5 and do as it counsels.

How will you then reconcile that with the book of mormon? (which i think is the purpose of this thread)

In summary you have to prove that the teachings you adopted are not part of the contradictions you claim exists in the bible.

It's not up to me to prove anything. We come to a knowledge of spiritual truth just as Peter did. It is not revealed to us through "flesh and blood" but through our Father in Heaven. (See Matthew 16:13-19)

How will you prove that all your sources are reliable when you claimed the bible is full of contradictions. that your church condemned polygamy contradicting the written doctrine its very founder wrote.

As DeepShadow pointed out, God's commandments change from time to time, based on the needs and level of knowledge of His people. Monogamy is the norm. The Book of Mormon makes that absolutely clear. It also states that God may authorize the practice for a period of time if He wishes.

You said it your self, men make mistakes so does that mean we are hopelwss and cannot find the pure and undefiled religion desccribed in the book of James?

No, it doesn't. But it does mean that in order for us to be able to know the mind and will of God, He needs to be able to be in direct communication with us through a prophet -- just as He promised in the scriptures He would always be.

Athiest will feast on this ... it is sad!

LOL. I'm not too worried about that. Athiests don't really care as much as fundamentalist Christians do. Atheists are already convinced that the entire Bible is nonsense. It's people who are convinced that the Bible alone can provide all of the answers to life's questions who may be a little shaken over it. Perhaps that's not so sad after all. As a side note, you and Fish-Hunter are doing a superb job of proving why the doctrine of sola scriptura is so flawed. You started out on the same team, so to speak, and within a couple of posts, you have come to disagreements concerning how certain verses of scripture should be interpreted. You are to be commended.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Fortunately, we don't have to guess. We having a living prophet, a man through whom God speaks today just as He did anciently. He holds the same keys of authority Jesus gave to Peter, and is assisted in his calling by Twelve Apostles. This is the same organization Paul spoke of in Ephesians 4:11-14 when he said that the foundation upon which Christ built His Church should continue to exist until we all come into a unity of the faith. He said that without it, we would all be "children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine."

I'm saying precisely the opposite. With a spokesman appointed by God Himself, we don't need to sort this out for ourselves.

(1) Well, for starters, I wouldn't make a claim I couldn't substantiate, as you have done. (2) I would suggest that you read James 1:5 and do as it counsels.

It's not up to me to prove anything. We come to a knowledge of spiritual truth just as Peter did. It is not revealed to us through "flesh and blood" but through our Father in Heaven. (See Matthew 16:13-19)

As DeepShadow pointed out, God's commandments change from time to time, based on the needs and level of knowledge of His people. Monogamy is the norm. The Book of Mormon makes that absolutely clear. It also states that God may authorize the practice for a period of time if He wishes.

No, it doesn't. But it does mean that in order for us to be able to know the mind and will of God, He needs to be able to be in direct communication with us through a prophet -- just as He promised in the scriptures He would always be.

I'm not too worried about that. Athiests don't really care as much as fundamentalist Christians do. Atheists are already convinced that the entire Bible is nonsense. It's people who are convinced that the Bible alone can provide all of the answers to life's questions who may be a little shaken over it. Perhaps that's not so sad after all. As a side note, you and Fish-Hunter are doing a superb job of proving why the doctrine of sola scriptura is so flawed. You started out on the same team, so to speak, and within a couple of posts, you have come to disagreements concerning how certain verses of scripture should be interpreted. I suppose a big thank you from the Latter-day Saints is in order.

Hi Katzpur,

I thought your counsel to your Mormon brothers and sisters was to "NOT FEED THE TROLL". I know it's difficult to practice what you preach.

Fishing for the Truth!

Note to Sola'lor, Orontes, idea, Starfish, DavyCrocket2003, Polaris, and Scott C:

A word to the wise. There are anti-Mormons who are willing to admit to your face that they're out to bash your beliefs. In an odd sort of way, they are to be commended for their honesty. There are other anti-Mormons who hide behind a mask of feigned interest and would like you to believe that they are genuinely trying to come to a better understanding of your beliefs, when in fact they will simply ignore everything you say and carry on as if you hadn't even answered their questions. They're also experts at sidestepping the issues when you turn the tables and start asking them questions. I suspect you all know this as well as I do. In the event that you don't know for sure which kind you're dealing with on this thread, I'm just giving you a heads up. Oh, and one more thing: Unless you're a first-generation convert who was raised agnostic in inner-city Detroit, you have nothing worthwhile to say anyway. If you were born in the Church, you couldn't possibly have made an informed decision about whether or not to accept the tenets of Mormonism.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE: :troll: - Katzpur

 

[Katzpur]

Hi Katzpur,

I thought your counsel to your Mormon brothers and sisters was to "NOT FEED THE TROLL". I know it's difficult to practice what you preach.

You thought I was talking to you? However did you come to that conclusion? I didn't quote a single word you said. My remarks were obviously addressed to uss_bigd. He and I may have our differences, but he is at least capable of engaging in a two-way conversation. I will continue to respond to him and to other posters who may question my beliefs. Glean what you care to from what I say to them, and don't flatter yourself into thinking I would waste my time on you.

 

[DeepShadow]

Hi Katzpur,

I thought your counsel to your Mormon brothers and sisters was to "NOT FEED THE TROLL". I know it's difficult to practice what you preach.

ROTFL! Apparently Katzpur is better at walking her talk than you are at following a conversation!

Katz was not talking to you, for good reason.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

As a side note, you and Fish-Hunter are doing a superb job of proving why the doctrine of sola scriptura is so flawed. You started out on the same team, so to speak, and within a couple of posts, you have come to disagreements concerning how certain verses of scripture should be interpreted. You are to be commended.

Katzpur,

It sure seems you were talking to me. Maybe you should submit to the Apostle Paul's instruction to you with your strong desire to teach everyone? . I think USS Biggs lines up with you more than me, since you both reject the Triune God revealed in the Holy Bible, and both claim to be in the One True Church.

1 Peter 3:15:
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

2 Timothy 2
And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

 

[DeepShadow]

Talking about you, not to you. There's a difference; look it up if you want.

More's the point, neither of these is "feeding the troll."

Your failure to grasp this is part of the reason we don't "feed the troll."

 

[Fish-Hunter]

ROTFL! Apparently Katzpur is better at walking her talk than you are at following a conversation!

Katz was not talking to you, for good reason.

I see that you both consider yourselves to be LDS Christians. You both believe in the Christ revealed in the Book of Mormon; therefore you need to profess that you are LDS Christians. The Christ revealed in the Book of Mormon is a different Christ than the One revealed in the Holy Bible Alone. We believe in mutually exclusive Gods. Therefore, we both cannot be right. Someone is following the god of deception.

 

[Fish-Hunter]

Talking about you, not to you. There's a difference; look it up if you want.

More's the point, neither of these is "feeding the troll."

Your failure to grasp this is part of the reason we don't "feed the troll."

Well, that's the whole point of this thread. Your Mormon brother wanted to see if the Mormon Faith could stand up to the light of Scripture alone. I believe he started this thread because of one of my postings. Obviously if you continue to call me a troll and refuse to address the issues, then we know it is futile for Mormons to even try the proof your religion through the Bible alone. Your faith is based on the testimony of a 14 year boy alone. The Mormon Church never claimed that the Holy Bible is sufficient revelation from God; therefore you create your own Holy books to support what you proclaim and believe. You can get angry at me, but you know it's true. The Mormon Religion is grounded in extra-biblical revelation, nullifying the Holy Word of God. The Mormon Faith is built upon the distortion and corruption of the Holy Bible. You try to convince people from trusting God through His Word (The Holy Bible) to the Mormon institution and their mutually exclusive books (Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and the theory of prophet succession. God wants us to trust in His ultimate Prophet, Priest, and King...who is the final revelation to mankind...the only mediator between God and man. Authentic Christianity exalts and centers around the person and work of Jesus Christ alone to the glory of God alone.