KRISTALLNACHT

[shmogie]

The percentage of white people in the US (73%) is about the same as the percentage of Christians (74%). Would you see it as problematic to call the USA a "white nation?"

If so, then hopefully you'll understand how it's similarly problematic to call the USA a "Christian nation."

Your argument is specious. One has no choice as to their race. One chooses religion.

Would you call Jordan a muslim nation ?

The majority of the population of Israel are Jews, secular or not. Is Israel a Jewish nation ?

 

[Revoltingest]

Your argument is specious. One has no choice as to their race. One chooses religion.

This is not entirely so.
While true for some who are "religion fluid", people born
into a religion & culture don't appear likely to change.
One might say that they could change, but if the tendency
to remain the same is overwhelming, to call it a "choice"
seems rather misleading.
And I could never choose a religion any more than I
could choose to believe that 1 + 1 = 3, or that invisible
unicorns are pink, or that spaghetti deities can fly.

Oh, race is often a choice, eg, Obama's picking his
black half to be his identity.

 

[shmogie]

This is not entirely so.
People born into a religion & culture don't appear likely to change.
And I could never choose a religion any more than I could choose to believe that 1 + 1 = 3.

However, people born into a religion, at least in the US, can choose to leave it when they choose.

Cultural and familial considerations may be present, but the right to choose remains the same.

 

[LuisDantas]

Kristallnacht is a cynic Nazi euphemism.

It may have originated as such, but these days it is a sobering reminder.

 

[PureX]

DEFINITION

1. the occasion of concerted violence by Nazis throughout Germany and Austria against Jews and their property on the night of November 9–10, 1938.

This is what happens when you demonize people with hates sight and lies.

Yes, like how Trump demonizes immigrants. And the Christian right demonizes gays. And the police demonize black males. And our government demonizes Muslim "terrorists" (while ignoring our home-grown mass-murdering terrorists). And how political conservatives demonize "liberals". And how ...

Welcome to America, the land of demons.

 

[Revoltingest]

However, people born into a religion, at least in the US, can choose to leave it when they choose.

Cultural and familial considerations may be present, but the right to choose remains the same.

If one remains as one was indoctrinated, & never considers
other orientations, then choice is effectively unavailable.
This would be due to mental limitation.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Your argument is specious. One has no choice as to their race. One chooses religion.

So what?

It's okay to exclude minority groups as long as the people in those groups chose to belong to them?

Would you call Jordan a muslim nation ?

Its state religion is Islam.

What's the state religion of the US?

The majority of the population of Israel are Jews, secular or not. Is Israel a Jewish nation ?

The laws of Israel declare Israel as a "Jewish state."

Do American laws declare the US to be a "Christian state?" Think hard this time.

 

[PureX]

If one remains as one was indoctrinated, & never considers
other orientations, then choice is effectively unavailable.
This would be due to mental limitation.

This is an important consideration regarding a great many 'issues' that we discuss, here.

 

[Flankerl]

It may have originated as such, but these days it is a sobering reminder.

Only outside of German speaking countries.
In these countries the discourse is on about the term.

Usually the term "Reichspogromnacht" is more proper.
Or of course "Novemberpogrome" as the pogrom lasted for an entire week.

 

[Revoltingest]

This is an important consideration regarding a great many 'issues' that we discuss, here.

Aye, "choice" is indeed complicated by one's personal & situational limitations.

 

[shmogie]

So what?

It's okay to exclude minority groups as long as the people in those groups chose to belong to them?


Its state religion is Islam.

What's the state religion of the US?


The laws of Israel declare Israel as a "Jewish state."

Do American laws declare the US to be a "Christian state?" Think hard this time.

I don´t have to think about it, since I was in law classes most likely before you were born.

You have now flipped the argument from the colloquial to the legal.

The United States has no State religion. Britain, one of the more secular and atheistic countries in the West does, so Britain is a Christian nation, right ?

Is the US a Christian nation ?, not by legal fiat. However it is based upon itś history, traditions, and culture always held by the majority of itś population.

You sometimes adopt the techniques of the snide, don´t you ?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The percentage of white people in the US (73%) is about the same as the percentage of Christians (74%). Would you see it as problematic to call the USA a "white nation?"

If so, then hopefully you'll understand how it's similarly problematic to call the USA a "Christian nation."

Your argument is specious. One has no choice as to their race. One chooses religion.

You seem to have worked hard to miss the point.

 

[shmogie]

If one remains as one was indoctrinated, & never considers
other orientations, then choice is effectively unavailable.
This would be due to mental limitation.

I disagree. There are way too many examples of people exercising choice to conclude that those raised in a particular religion are unable to leave.

I was raised in a Southern Baptist family. Faith was in the very fabric of the family, aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, parents.

Yet, in college I renounced the faith, and became an atheist. The fact that later in life I corrected that error is irrelevant to the point that I left the Faith for years.

My experience has been repeated thousands, perhaps millions of times, and many suffered dearly for their choice,

 

[shmogie]

You seem to have worked hard to miss the point.

No, I addressed the point.

 

[PureX]

You seem to have worked hard to miss the point.

Yes, and to mischaracterize the terms and condition under discussion, I've noticed. There is an agenda hiding in there, desperately trying to justify itself, I think.

 

[columbus]

There are way too many examples of people exercising choice to conclude that those raised in a particular religion are unable to leave.

You live in a strange place.
This country was founded by, and remains dominated by, an extremely overbearing religion.
But it was founded with a secular morality.

Separation of church and state, that sort of thing.
Most people don't live in places like that.
Tom

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don´t have to think about it, since I was in law classes most likely before you were born.

... for all the good it did you.

I don't necessarily believe a thing you say, but if you took some constitutional law classes before Lemon v. Kurtzman, that might explain a few things.

You have now flipped the argument from the colloquial to the legal.

I was never talking about either. I've been trying to figure out in what sense the US could ever be considered a "Christian nation."

At first you spoke to demographics, but then when I asked you whether you thought that the US is a "white nation," you rejected the idea that a nation is defined by its demographics.

The United States has no State religion. Britain, one of the more secular and atheistic countries in the West does, so Britain is a Christian nation, right ?

In one sense, yes. In other senses, no.

Is the US a Christian nation ?, not by legal fiat. However it is based upon itś history, traditions, and culture always held by the majority of itś population.

Baloney. Since its inception, the US was founded on the idea that religion should be a private, individual matter. The first chance the American government - including some of the Founding Fathers - had to declare what sort of nation the United States was, they officially declared that "the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."

The American Founding Fathers weren't idiots or ignorant of their own history. They recognized the role that sectarianism played in the English Civil War and resolved to make a secular nation in order to avoid the abuses that had happened when religion was allowed to influence government.

You sometimes adopt the techniques of the snide, don´t you ?

I tend to give what I get.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, I addressed the point.

I was the one who made the point. You really did miss it.

 

[shmogie]

I was the one who made the point. You really did miss it.

Nope,, once again you are dead wrong. 3 for 3 today.

Your wrongness average would make you a baseball star of all time, if it was your batting average.

 

[shmogie]

You live in a strange place.
This country was founded by, and remains dominated by, an extremely overbearing religion.
But it was founded with a secular morality.

Separation of church and state, that sort of thing.
Most people don't live in places like that.
Tom

Please quote from the Constitution where the term separation of church and state is found. Don´t try, you won´t find it.

What you will find regarding the state is that it cannot identify a state approved and supported religion.

An overbearing religion ? I think not.

If it was founded by those of a particular religion, wouldn´t you think they had the right to determine what their creation would be ?