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Featured JWs & The Bible

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by nPeace, Mar 31, 2021.

  1. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

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    interesting
     
  2. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    This will be my last response to you on this thread.

    When one has played the kind of disingenuous games you've repeatedly played here, what are we supposed to do, cheer you? You may take it as personal insult, but when one is dishonest by repeatedly posting dishonest things, that's not a personal insult-- it's a fact. Thus, calling a spade a "spade" is not an "insult".

    I call them the "Apostles" or the "Twelve", which is more compatible with the scriptures. After all, isn't you JW's that insist on using the correct names.

    Correct.

    They said there would be apostacy but not that the entire Church would be taken over. If that had happened, then Jesus promise ton guide his Church would have to be considered as being false.

    Correct.

    Yep.

    The Jesus' promise wasn't fulfilled, according to this.

    Again, se above.

    Starting in the late first century and into the 2nd, different groups claiming to be the "true Church" appeared, and this created sever problems, including the fact that they used different canons. such as Marcion, who only used a part of Luke and eliminated the other Gospels from his canon. The canon you use is from the Catholic canon, which is quite funny in that you say the Church went into apostacy and yet you use our canon [minus the Apocrypha-- another story] that was selected in the 4th century. IOW, you're trying to have it both ways.

    Anyhow, I gotta go, and sorry if I get rather hot under the collar at times-- this is what happens when one is married to an Sicilian for 54 years.:emojconfused:
     
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  3. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

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    Dang! I looked, I even searched on the RF auto-search thing & got nothing. How do u get there?
    Live is short, no hurry. I got the time so I was looking for someone here to see if he(she) could put it in clearer wording.
     
  4. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    @Deeje can probably help you out there. I came across it once, but it seems hard to find.

    You seem to really want that conversation. I am sorry it didn't work out.
    I tried. I really did, but it seems I didn't understand what you wanted.
    Even now, I would admit, that I still don't understand what you want to do, clearly.

    Maybe communicating between us is somewhat of a challenge, because of the time factor.
    You seem to want to write short, and I don't have the time or ,mindset to do the same because my mind is in overload with the things I have to do, while at the same time trying to respond to threads, and sometimes what can happen if I don't put down what I have to say, while my train of thought is clear in focus, it can become jumbled with other thoughts, and the other things i am working on.

    I'm not very good at multitasking brain-wise, i guess. :)
     
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  5. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Well. I really did not intend to have any discussion with you, but you asked a question, and I decided i would answer. I anticipated this, but I think we humans tend to keep trying for some reason, even when we get bitten on the butt by angry dogs. ;)
    Take care. :)
     
  6. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    ...though nineteenth-century nationalism is often seen as essentially secular, the most powerful of these identities were frequently religious. Indeed the clergy often played a major role in promoting a national consciousness. While a ‘national church’ readily saw itself as the embodiment of the nation’s past history, present identity and future aspirations, religious minorities usually had a more ambivalent relationship with a nationalism that was always in some degree exclusive.

    Nationalism and Christianity
    Many of the classic histories of nationalism12 see it as an essentially secular ideology – even as a ‘political religion’, substituting for a declining Christianity.

    Christianity and nationalism in nineteenth-century Europe

    Maybe some people don't understand what secular and secularization means.
    Why, maybe they don't even know what being of the world, or being part of the world means.
    (John 17:16) They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

    Am I to be blamed for someone's ignorance. :shrug:
     
  7. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

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    If u get a chance, what does "GB" mean?
    Ah. Hope I'm not too late asking but I'd be grateful if u could help me out about the thing of Jesus and the church he "said he would guide until the end of time". Where did u say that's from?
     
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  8. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    @Pete in Panama if you look at the Forums list you will see in “Abrahamic”, then “Christianity DIR” and selecting that will give you a sub menu....find “non-Trinitarian” and the JW DIR will be there.

    Jehovah's Witnesses DIR
     
    #168 Deeje, Apr 13, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
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  9. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Just in the event that metis does not respond, GB is short for Governing Body.

    I'm interested in the answer to your last question too. I think the answer would be Matthew 28:20. Perhaps to some persons, the Church is the ones Jesus sent out to make disciples.
    At that time they were not the body. None of them were anointed by holy spirit. They were not sons of God - born again.

    The Church was formed in 33 CE, after Jesus' death.
    (Colossians 1:18) and he is the head of the body, the congregation.

    (1 Corinthians 12:27, 28) 27 Now you are Christ’s body, and each of you individually is a member. 28 And God has assigned the respective ones in the congregation. . .

    (Ephesians 1:22, 23) 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.
     
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  10. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Thank you! Very complete and will be working on it.
     
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  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Deeje. That's really hard to find. One has to dig through a lot. I went that far, and turned back after I hit a dead-end with a few earlier tries.
    It's like going through a jungle. :eek:
     
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  12. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    One could be forgiven for thinking they buried it :D
     
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  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Buried like in a billion years of sedimentary categories. [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #173 nPeace, Apr 14, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2021
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  14. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    "Governing Body" of the JW's that tells them what they must believe and how they must act.

    I have to leave very shortly for an appointment, so let me give you some verses that directly or indirectly deal with this:
    Acts 2[42]
    Ephesians 5[25-26]
    I Timothy 3[15]
    Matthew 16[18]
    Hebrews 13[17]
    Matthew 18[17-18]
    Matthew 23[2]
    I Corinthians 5[5]
    I Timothy [1[20]

    If there's a question, I'll be back here at RF later today.

    Take care.
     
  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Just to inform you Pete, what metis said to you is misleading.
    You can see that from post #122, where he asked the question he did. From there, you can follow the conversation.
    GB refers to those taking the lead in the congregation, with the assigned responsibility to feed Jesus' sheep.
    Perhaps metis forgot that he implied the GB existed continually from the first century. Or maybe... something else.
     
    #175 nPeace, Apr 15, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  16. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi @nPeace and @Brian2


    I did not want to interrupt your discussion other than to point out that I like both of your last points re the Parousia (παρουσια) of Jesus as it applies to his second coming.

    Παρουσια in the early literature was used both in the sense of a "presence" and an "arrival" and it is the context which differentiates the usage in a phrase.
    In the peri-c.e. era it most often referred to the visit of a king or another high official (and therefore the preparation for the coming of this official).
    In this sort of context, It was typically an arrival that had a purpose in mind or a noteworthy arrival such as when the word spreads that Judith arrives at the camp of Holofernes (Judith 10:18) or when the Messiah “will return in glory” (apo Baruch 30:1) though Ignatius also uses it of the first “appearance” of the Messiah Jesus at his incarnation at birth.

    I’m not involved in the thread but I just wanted to point out that both of you are correct in the useage and I like your references and the points you made to historical context.

    I hope your spiritual journeys are wonderful.

    Clear
     
  17. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Agreed.

    I agree that "it involves"... just to make sure we are on the same page (because I think we are on it) - Genesis 3:15 - is the vehicle that gets us to Eph 1:8-14

    Right on!!!

    Yes on the Gentiles. Yes on the joint heirs. Ruling with Christ... but I believe not just heavenly kingdom but on this earth too. Which I don't think you have an issue with... but you can share otherwise.

    Here... I'm not sure. wouldn't it also be one earth? Revelation 21:1-4,7 (and others)
     
  18. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I actually forgot I was to respond to this post.
    Again, Brian, thanks for answering.

    Yes?
    I don't understand. How does one answer Yes to the question, Are angels spirit or flesh?
    It's not a question requiring a Yes or No answer.

    Do angels materialize physical bodies?
    You say Yes, angels materialize physical bodies.

    Jesus being resurrected as spirit, could materialize physical bodies. You agree.

    You say Yes, jesus was born on earth a human.

    Jesus died, you agree. Yes.

    Was Jesus raised flesh? You say Yes,

    Okay, so here is what you believe Brian.
    Angels are ________, and they materialize physical bodies, and if Jesus was raised spirit, he could materialize physical bodies, but Jesus was not raised spirit, but rather he was born flesh, died flesh, and was raised up flesh.

    That's your belief.
    I'm not sure why you didn't properly answer the first question, Are angels spirit or flesh?
    If you had, I could put your beliefs about angels in proper perspective.

    Here is what the Bible says.
    Angels are spirit. - Hebrews 1:7, 13
    Angels materialize physical bodies. - Genesis 19:15, 16 ; Genesis 32:24-30 ; Judges 13:3, 6, 8-14 ; Zechariah 1:10, 11 ;
    Matthew 28:2-7 ; Acts 10:30-33 ; Acts 11:13
    Jesus was resurrected as spirit, and he could materialize physical bodies. - 1 Timothy 3:16 ; 1 Peter 3:18, 19 ; 1 Corinthians 15:35-52
    Jesus was born a human, on earth. - John 1:14 ; Philippians 2:7, 8 ; Hebrews 2:14
    Jesus died. - Isaiah 53:12 ; Romans 5:6-8 ; 1 Peter 3:18 ; 1 John 4:10

    So according to the scriptures...
    Angels are spirits, and they materialize physical bodies, and Jesus was raised spirit, he also could materialize physical bodies, and he did, but Jesus was was born flesh, died flesh, and was raised up spirit.

    This is also what JWs believe.
    I think it's clear to see that JWs beliefs are in harmony with the Bible. Not yours Brian.

    Thanks for pointing to the post.
    So you are saying that you don't see what as necessary or commands - message - the good news of the kingdom ; the method - being organized to go door to door ; the territory - wherever people of all nations can be found throughout the earth ; the duration - until the end?

    JWs have not changed their methods during the Covid19 pandemic.
    They always used other features - public, informal, letter, telephone...
    It's just that this situation caused them to use one of those other features more, and the doo to door is not used at present since safety is not thrown out the window, nor neighborly love. All these are required along with declaring the good news of the kingdom.
    That is why if a landlord requests that we do not call on their properties, we do not. It's not a loving thing to say, "Well Jesus told his followers to go to people's houses, and so we must go to theirs." Nor would it be wise.

    Many JWs cannot go door to door because of health challenges, nobody commands that they get out of their bed or chair, and go.
    Some JWs are inactive. They have not preached for months. None of them have been kicked out, according to you.
    So you were misinformed.

    The door to door ministry is the primary way we carry the good news in following the example set by our Lord Jesus Christ. It may not be house to house, but hut to hut, car to car, truck to truck, ship to ship, bush to bush, cave to cave... wherever people are, is where we look to go.
    That is the principle. That is the important thing - the focus.

    Apparently you are deciding whom should be preached to, how important the work is, and when and how to do it.
    The Lord has not sent you. You want to come up with your own way of doing things.
    You don't have that authority, Brian. Jesus does.

    Where did you read JWs saying there is only one method of sharing the good news? Can you please provide the Watchtower that says that?
    What message do JWs have that is not in the Bible?

    You have your own beliefs. Evidently you were not sent, and you don't seem to think you were.
    Were you called? How do you know when you are called? Do you hear a voice?
     
    #178 nPeace, Apr 15, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  19. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Hi Clear. Brian and I are in disagreement on the usage of parousia in the text we were considering, so I am not sure how we can be both correct... but thanks for sharing your thoughts.
     
  20. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Thanks.
    Just to be clear... There is to be a universal family both in heaven and on earth. Yes?
     
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