Featured JWs & The Bible

I need a little help here. I'm trying to follow, but I am quite lost. Sorry. Where does Jesus mention Daniel 8?

 

I thought Matthew 24:15 was a quote from Daniel 9. That's what was confusing me, but thanks.

 

I understand. Deeje is with you on Chapter 8 of Daniel, but I think like me, she's not sure how to move forward, because we... at least, I am not clear on what you want to do, or how you want to proceed.

 

Oh, and @Pete in Panama I don't think Chapter 8 fits in with Matthew 24, regarding what Jesus said there.
As Deeje said, all the prophecies in Daniel relate to the Messiah and the time of the end. Understanding how they relate requires understanding other things said by Jesus, and John in Revelations.

 

Don't worry about that now. It's long past, and I already responded.

Um. What are you doing? Can you please explain.
I don't understand what is the purpose of this.

 

Paragraphs 12-14
13 The word parousiʹa literally means “a being alongside,” it being drawn from the Greek preposition paraʹ (“alongside”) and ousía (a “being”). Liddell and Scott’s A Greek-English Lexicon, Volume II, page 1343, column 2, gives as the first definition of parousía the English word “presence.” It gives as the second definition thereof arrival, and then adds: “Especially visit of a royal or official personage.” In agreement with this the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (by Gerhard Friedrich), in Volume V, gives as “The General Meaning” the English word “Presence.” (Page 859) Then, as “The Technical Use of the Terms,” in Hellenism, it gives “1. The Visit of a Ruler.” On page 865 it says concerning “The Technical Use of pareimi [verb] and parousía in the N.T.”: “In the N.T. the terms are never used for the coming of Christ in the flesh, and parousía never has the sense of return. The idea of more than one parousía is first found only in the later Church.”

 

Let's take a look.
Post #12
Quote ***
The idea is that we put aside all our accumulated dogma/orthodoxy and say you and I are two collaborators investigating as a team just what the Divine guidance is. We just work w/ what's in the Bible passage by passage that we check out together agreeing all the way or defining what we can't reconcile where ever we hit a snag.

Like we could say, look at Matthew 24 & agree on what it says and elaborate only by referring to other passages in the Bible. Probably we'll be tempted to cite authorities from our particular religious organizations but given our relationship that would have to be on a fwiw basis.

If Mat24 doesn't work for u maybe there's somewhere else in the Bible u'd like to look? To me the advantage of 24 is it seems to be to the point we're interested in.
***Unquote

My responses are in the bright red.
Post #14
Okay. I'll give you the chance to build without a foundation. You go first. Matthew 24... which verse are we starting with?

Post #17
Personally I'd have thought that the Bible itself was the best foundation, but I may be talking about something different than what u mean.

At any rate, I'm looking at the chapter right now & what I see at the beginning is Jesus commenting that everything's going to be torn down & the disciples ask when this is going to happen & how will we know. Sound like what u see at the beginning?

Post #19
When you say everything, do you mean the beloved city of Jerusalem with its temple?
@Pete in Panama do you realize what just happened here?

Post #20
That very well may be the case but I'm more interested in getting into the end times & whether Jerusalem is beloved or not is not my focus. Was there something critical to you here? My preference atm is that we move forward if we can.

Post #22
Matthew 24:1-3
1 Now as Jesus was departing from the temple, his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

Okay, so you are not interested in the first fulfillment - the last days of the Jewish system.
You are interested in the last days of this system.

Okay. So far I am with you.
Yes. There will be signs indicating when the last days would begin. Also Christ's parousia (παρουσία, ας, ἡ) Some use the word presence, while others say coming.
This could present a problem, so what do we do here, as persons starting from scratch?

We have the word usage here.
HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

What do you suggest?

Post #25
Super!! It is so fantastic that you're willing to go to the original Greek to get as close as possible to the original intent.

Post #26
To The Anointed
We may very well be able to agree on that together but right now we're doing one thing at a time and we haven't gotten to that yet. Right now @nPeace and I are in Matthew 24 where Jesus did specifically describe signs of the end times. It's a bit easier to maintain joint clarity w/ one scriptural passage at a time --for us that is.

Post #28
Of course, I think that's important because some times translators use words that fit their understanding or ideas.

Consider the Greek word parousia. When translated coming, it can convey a wrong understanding of what the original writers were stating.

Consider HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

When we consider the literal meaning, right away, we see that coming does not fit.
Coming does not mean arrived, or present.
Yet this is what the Greek word conveys.- personal presence... from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation".

So for a person now starting out from scratch, a good study Bible is quite useful in helping them get a better perspective... not to mention, if they have a background they have a better understanding.

So we can understand Matthew 24:3 to read ...what will be the sign of your presence, or Fill the blank. so that we can move on.

Post #29
Pse check to see if we're reading this next part together, that we're hearing about false prophets, not the time of the end, earthquakes/famines, not the time of the end, then the Book of Daniel and the Son of Man.

Is that what u got so far?

Let's pause the recording...
I want to put a pin there for reference.
Note :
Pete did not respond to the query on Matthew 24:3 and Jesus presence. Neither Nay, or yeah.... but moved on.

Continued next post.

 

Proceeding....
Post #31
...
The prophecy is two-fold.
The second of the two has two parts but closely linked
(Matthew 24:3) . . .“Tell us, when will these things [the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem] be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

Therefore, some of the following verses relate to before the last days of the Jewish system and during, while some relate to both the end of the Jewish system, and the end of the present system, and during Christ's presence.

Looking at the first - the destruction of Jerusalem and it's temple. What signs would preceed it?
Can we say verses 4 to 6?
We know for sure verses 10 to 20.
However, from verse 3 we know that some do apply to future. So we need help in understanding which.
Verse 21 gives us a clue that that is future, and also verse 22,
We can see that verses 13, and 14, also applys to during Christ's presence, and prior to the end.
The Bible can help, as it contains the links, but how does a person starting from scratch, understand these things on their own, without the help of the anointed followers of Christ?

I don't see how. Do you?

Post #32
This is good so far & I'm willing to continue, but somehow I'm hearing you both ways here. Are you saying you can't proceed or are u saying u can & ur willing?

Post #33
No. I can most definitely, and happily proceed. I'm just trying to help you to appreciate why we cannot study the Bible on our own, and really understand the message of the Bible without the help of the Christian congregation of anointed ones.
It's impossible to do.
I would say, one stands a better chance starting from Genesis, but even then, it's big rocks without Jehovah's spirit directed organization. Remember the Ethiopian Eunuch that Phillip helped in the book of Acts?
True, we will come up with many ideas, but will they be in harmony with the rest of scriptures? No. They will not.

I do understand what you mean by starting from scratch, but I can tell you that doing that would send me "bonkers" if I did not have the background and foundation I was referring you to earlier.

Just think about it.
Considering that verse 3 of Matthew 24 clearly shows that there are three "events", and then we can see the rest of the Chapter contains a whole heap of things Jesus said in "one mouthful". how would one even begin to put these in their right perspective?

Most definitely though, I want to continue.
You don't seem to be giving me much on what I present though. Perhaps you are just focused on Daniel?

Post #34
Let's start again from verse 3. Deeje asked a question. How about we go from there? I think proceeding one step at a time will be helpful, and the best place to start is with Jesus' parousía.
What is it, and what exactly does it refer to?
Let's begin here.
......................................................................

Pause..
Perhaps here is wher I lost you.
maybe I went a bit too fast for you, I don't know, but I got no responce after post #34, and post #35, so I proceeded to post #46.
However, In those posts, I covered Matthew 24, and at the end, I specifically said this...
There ends Matthew 24.
Did we miss anything? Right, Jesus quoting Daniel.
Actually, we did not miss it. this was fullfilled from just before 70 CE, to shortly after, but we can look at it closer, if you like.

Let's have a little... Well not just a little, but let's be totally honest here.
First you say, we start at Matthew 24 and the end times, which I proceeded step by step, from Chapters 1-3 - mainly verse 3 being the primary focus.

Understand verse is crucial to moving forward.
Twice I queried your input on verse 3 in regard to the use of the Greek term which I showed refers to Christ's presence. Did you respond?

Not to Jesus' presence in Matthew 24, which you said you wanted to discuss step by step.
instead, you just... I would say, ignored that, and moved along - post #29.

Matthew 24:3 is crucial to our understanding.
So now I am wondering, if the words you said in post #12 are true...
We just work w/ what's in the Bible passage by passage that we check out together agreeing all the way or defining what we can't reconcile where ever we hit a snag.

Like we could say, look at Matthew 24 & agree on what it says and elaborate only by referring to other passages in the Bible.
How is it you find yourself wanting to start at Daniel 8?

Just put yourself in my shoes Pete.

So are we finished with Matthew 24?
Can I ask.. Is it the case that you are more interested in Daniel, and focusing on the expression "son of man"?
Be honest with me Pete. Let's be open with each other. what is it you are really seeking?