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Featured JWs & The Bible

Discussion in 'Comparative Religion' started by nPeace, Mar 31, 2021.

  1. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

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    --as in "give 'em enough rope & he'll hang himself?" My thinking is that we want to collaborate on this, not debate it. There are things I'm trying to find out here about what's in the Sacred Text, if that's ur interest too then we can go for it but if ur just interested in some kind of food fight then let's be on the same side & through our green beans at say, atheists.
    That very well may be the case but I'm more interested in getting into the end times & whether Jerusalem is beloved or not is not my focus. Was there something critical to you here? My preference atm is that we move forward if we can.
     
  2. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    No I didn't mean anything like that. Sorry. You misinterpreted what I meant.
    When someone is given the rope, in the context I meant, they lead ... as a farmer leads the cow, or the rancher leads the horse. Not that I think I am a cow, but I take that position. :D Cow-headed? No. ;)
    I meant you take the lead.

    Man. Do you latch on to every word someone says? :)
    We haven't even started, and words are presenting a problem. :)
    Let's not dwell on words and fighting over them. Let's deal with scripture. :)
    There will be plenty of time for that later, I am sure. Beloved; Beautiful; Precious... No big deal.

    Matthew 24:1-3
    1 Now as Jesus was departing from the temple, his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”

    Okay, so you are not interested in the first fulfillment - the last days of the Jewish system.
    You are interested in the last days of this system.

    Okay. So far I am with you.
    Yes. There will be signs indicating when the last days would begin. Also Christ's parousia (παρουσία, ας, ἡ) Some use the word presence, while others say coming.
    This could present a problem, so what do we do here, as persons starting from scratch?

    We have the word usage here.
    HELPS Word-studies
    3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

    What do you suggest?
     
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  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    @Pete in Panama you might want to delete your last post, since it's a double post. :)
     
  4. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    There are signs when the last days will begin.

    The last days are the thousand years rule of Jesus, after which heavenly fire will incinerate all physical life forms on this planet as revealed in Zephaniah 1: 2-3; The LORD said, “I am going to destroy everything on earth, all human beings and animals, birds and fish. I will bring about the downfall of the wicked. I will destroy the whole human race, and no survivors will be left. I, the LORD, have spoken.

    Verse 18; On the day when the LORD shows his fury, not even all their silver and gold will save them. The whole earth will be destroyed by the fire of his anger. He will put an end — a sudden end — to everyone who lives on earth.

    Revelation 20: 4; Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given the power to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been executed because they had proclaimed the truth that Jesus revealed and the word of God. They had not worshipped the beast or its image, nor had they received the mark of the beast on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and ruled as kings with Christ for a thousand years.

    Jubilees 4: 30; And he (ADAM) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: 'On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die.' For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

    The seventh period of one thousand years from that day in which Adam ate of the forbidden fruit and died in that day at the age of 930, is the 'DAY OF THE LORD,' the 'Great Sabbath' of which says Paul, is the future reality of which the weekly Sabbath was but a shadow of that coming reality.

    Acts 17: 31; For He, (The Lord God our savior) has fixed a day (The seventh day of one thousand years) in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a 'MAN' he has 'CHOSEN.' HE has given proof of this to everyone by raising that 'MAN' from death.
     
    #24 The Anointed, Apr 1, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
  5. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

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    Super!! It is so fantastic that you're willing to go to the original Greek to get as close as possible to the original intent.
     
  6. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

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    We may very well be able to agree on that together but right now we're doing one thing at a time and we haven't gotten to that yet. Right now @nPeace and I are in Matthew 24 where Jesus did specifically describe signs of the end times. It's a bit easier to maintain joint clarity w/ one scriptural passage at a time --for us that is.
     
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  7. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    A lot rests on that one word, "parousia" because there is a "coming" or "manifestation" of Jesus as judge to separate the sheep from the goats, which comes at "the end" of the last days......and there is his "presence", meaning that he is already here.

    Obviously his "presence" comes before the judgment because Jesus' disciples had to witness the multi-faceted sign that he gave....to know that "the time of the end" had begun.

    If Jesus is already "present" (the signs indicating that fact) how do we know when he arrived?
     
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  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Of course, I think that's important because some times translators use words that fit their understanding or ideas.

    Consider the Greek word parousia. When translated coming, it can convey a wrong understanding of what the original writers were stating.

    Consider HELPS Word-studies
    3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).

    [3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]

    When we consider the literal meaning, right away, we see that coming does not fit.
    Coming does not mean arrived, or present.
    Yet this is what the Greek word conveys.- personal presence... from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation".

    So for a person now starting out from scratch, a good study Bible is quite useful in helping them get a better perspective... not to mention, if they have a background they have a better understanding.

    So we can understand Matthew 24:3 to read ...what will be the sign of your presence, or Fill the blank. so that we can move on.

    The scriptures show that Jesus was to become king, so his visit as king, or his presence as king.
     
    #28 nPeace, Apr 2, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
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  9. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

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    Pse check to see if we're reading this next part together, that we're hearing about false prophets, not the time of the end, earthquakes/famines, not the time of the end, then the Book of Daniel and the Son of Man.

    Is that what u got so far?
     
  10. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Could you rephrase and be more specific about what you are asking. Sorry, I don't understand.
     
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I got it.

    The prophecy is two-fold.
    The second of the two has two parts but closely linked
    (Matthew 24:3) . . .“Tell us, when will these things [the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem] be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?

    Therefore, some of the following verses relate to before the last days of the Jewish system and during, while some relate to both the end of the Jewish system, and the end of the present system, and during Christ's presence.

    Looking at the first - the destruction of Jerusalem and it's temple. What signs would preceed it?
    Can we say verses 4 to 6?
    We know for sure verses 10 to 20.
    However, from verse 3 we know that some do apply to future. So we need help in understanding which.
    Verse 21 gives us a clue that that is future, and also verse 22,
    We can see that verses 13, and 14, also applys to during Christ's presence, and prior to the end.
    The Bible can help, as it contains the links, but how does a person starting from scratch, understand these things on their own, without the help of the anointed followers of Christ?

    I don't see how. Do you?
     
    #31 nPeace, Apr 2, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
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  12. Pete in Panama

    Pete in Panama Active Member

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    This is good so far & I'm willing to continue, but somehow I'm hearing you both ways here. Are you saying you can't proceed or are u saying u can & ur willing?
     
  13. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    No. I can most definitely, and happily proceed. I'm just trying to help you to appreciate why we cannot study the Bible on our own, and really understand the message of the Bible without the help of the Christian congregation of anointed ones.
    It's impossible to do.
    I would say, one stands a better chance starting from Genesis, but even then, it's big rocks without Jehovah's spirit directed organization. Remember the Ethiopian Eunuch that Phillip helped in the book of Acts?
    True, we will come up with many ideas, but will they be in harmony with the rest of scriptures? No. They will not.

    I do understand what you mean by starting from scratch, but I can tell you that doing that would send me "bonkers" if I did not have the background and foundation I was referring you to earlier.

    Just think about it.
    Considering that verse 3 of Matthew 24 clearly shows that there are three "events", and then we can see the rest of the Chapter contains a whole heap of things Jesus said in "one mouthful". how would one even begin to put these in their right perspective? It's not as easy as this...

    [​IMG]
    Most definitely though, I want to continue.
    You don't seem to be giving me much on what I present though. Perhaps you are just focused on Daniel?
     
    #33 nPeace, Apr 2, 2021
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  14. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Let's start again from verse 3. Deeje asked a question. How about we go from there? I think proceeding one step at a time will be helpful, and the best place to start is with Jesus' parousía.
    What is it, and what exactly does it refer to?

    Let's begin here.

    Jesus went away - he returned to heaven.
    What next? Acts 2 says he sat at the right hand of God, as prophesied by David.
    (Acts 2:32-35) 32 God resurrected this Jesus, and of this we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore, because he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father, he has poured out what you see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand 35 until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”. . .

    David prophesied what about that?
    (Psalm 110:1, 2)
    1 Jehovah declared to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”
    2 Jehovah will extend the scepter of your power out of Zion, saying: “Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”

    So there was a period of time before Jesus would receive the scepter.
    We all know what a scepter is. [​IMG]
    Jesus will begin his rule.
    Now where is Jesus? In heaven with God. Can we see him? No. can we see when he is crowned? No.

    This is where Matthew 24 becomes more significant.
    Matthew 24:3 “Tell us, ...what will be the sign of your presence...?”

    4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. (Matthew 24:4-8)

    A lot is said there, but we can safely say, when we think about it, Jesus is responding to a question that contains three aspects, but one directly related to his invisible crowning as king.
    Therefore the sign he gives must be one that his followers can clearly identify, and say, this is it.

    Jesus gives a composite sign - many parts making the whole, which means that all that he identifies must be present.
    Does that mean we take ever verse after verse 3 in Chapter 24, and put them all together? No. Why not?
    Jesus is answering a question with three different events.
    Therefore, all that is said will not apply to all three events.

    For example...
    The destruction of Jerusalem occured in 70 CE
    During that period, or before, did we also see this... nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress. ?

    Not on a world wide scale that would be any different to wars, sicknesses etc, that we normally see.
    So we can put this event aside, as to occur in the future.
    Let's assume it occurs during the time Jesus is present as king.

    So let's go forward, in the future.
    There have always been wars, sicknesses, earthquakes, but we are looking for a sign that is significant, one that is separate and clear as to identify as the sign Jesus wants his followers to look for.

    Do we see that sign?
    We have. We saw it clearly, and the change was seen even by those who were not looking for it, nor following Christ. The Year the World Changed.
    Thus a follower of Christ, who was on the lookout for this sign, could discern that Jesus began ruling as king invisible to human eyes, in the heavens.

    Do we have any scriptural confirmation of this? Yes. There are several... at least five I can think of at the moment. I'll give two.
    #1
    Revelation 6
    [​IMG]
    You may want to read this in your own time. I have to be somewhat brief, so that i don't exhaust you.
    Do you know who the rider of the white horse is?
    Take note of the sequence -
    1. The white horse rides forth first = Jesus begins his rule.
    2. Next, the red horse goes forth = War on an unprecedented scale. the war or 1914, is not called the Great war, or World war, for no reason. It was different... followed by another, and subsequent.
    3. It was followed by Pestilences - the black horse.
    4. then finally, the pale horse - poverty, and food shortages bringing a vast amount of deaths.
    This is the composite sign indicating that Christ began ruling as king.

    Would you believe my browser just crashed?
    I'm building a project, so low on memory. I had better continue on a new page, before I have to type this out again.
    Thankful for RF's saving feature.
    I could have lost all of this. :(
     
    #34 nPeace, Apr 2, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2021
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  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    #2 Revelation 12
    [​IMG]
    Read in your own time.
    The events here describe Satan being cast from heaven to the earth, where he can no longer traverse to heaven.
    The Bible describes the situation on the earth, this way...
    "...Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.” (Revelation 12:12)

    Woe for the earth.
    Was the earth not experiencing woes before? Not on the scale mentioned before. So the timing of Michael hurling Satan out of heaven coincides with Jesus beginning his rule, and the events that followed the start of his ride - first on the tables - rid the heavens of God's chief adversary, Satan the Devil.
    Evidence that Jesus began his rule as king - he is present.

    What is really fascinating, and this is one of the reasons many people - including myself - love the book of Revelation, is that while these heavenly event are occuring invisible to us, God revealed them to John, so that we can "see" the events unfold according to God's purpose.
    So we have clear proof that God is actually active in carrying out what he started, by sending his son to die in behalf of mankind. His will is being carried out to the finish, when his original purpose will be accomplished.
    (Ephesians 1:9, 10)
    9 by making known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure that he himself purposed 10 for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, to gather all things together in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. Yes, in him

    So from this Pete, we get a perspective that helps us to see that before the conclusion of the system of things, many events will take place leading up to the end, but first Jesus' parousia was made evident to his followers.
    It is important that we recognize that, since that is not referring to when Christ comes as described here...
    (Matthew 24:29-31) 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

    Notice that the tribulation is mention here.
    Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
    The key word there is "immediately" So after the period of the tribulation, mention in Matthew 24:21, 22 King Jesus - the son of man, will then come to render judgment - that is remove all God's enemies and deliver faithful ones.

    Notice how that "meshes" together
    "...unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short." The king acts to protect his faithful anointed brothers from being wiped out. So immediately. It will be sudden. It will be like a thief - unexpected.
    See Matthew 25
    (2 Thessalonians 1:6-10) 6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. 7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you. . .

    Therefore, Jesus' words at Matthew 24 from verse 32 to the end - verse 51. (Please read - very important) Those verses say in a nutshell -
    1. The sign will be clear. Verses 32, and 33
    2. We don't know when the end will come, so be on the watch - Take note of the sign, and act. Don't be like those in Noah's day, who took no note. Verses 36 to 44
    3. Identify Jesus' anointed brothers. They have the responsibility of providing the spiritual guidance to help us (we can liken them to Noah. He took the lead in building the ark that preserved those who wanted to be saved). Verses 45 to 51

    There ends Matthew 24.
    Did we miss anything? Right, Jesus quoting Daniel.
    Actually, we did not miss it. this was fullfilled from just before 70 CE, to shortly after, but we can look at it closer, if you like.
     
    #35 nPeace, Apr 2, 2021
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  16. Clara Tea

    Clara Tea Well-Known Member

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    As I drive down the road, I come to a sign that says "Freeway, do not enter." Well, changing a word or two shouldn't make much of a difference. So, I read it "do enter." Zigzagging past cars that are coming at me in my lane at 60 miles per hour, I figure that they should be on the road if they're going to drive off into a ditch.
     
  17. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    Nice one.
    There are indeed some wicked individuals who set out to cause mischief, and deliberately do wicked deeds and some do suffer for it.
    That's why I appreciate that God remembers those, and draws them to Christ, who bandages their wounds.
    I also appreciate that despite using imperfect men to pen his word, he made sure to breath what he wanted writen, because otherwise lots of mistake would have affected all of us.

    I well appreciate though that God knows what he is doing so that although he still uses imperfect people to dispense the truth of his word, they are not inspired.
    It reminds me of his wisdom, as demonstrated through Christ.
    Christ 'put up a sign', and with that, a good few 'ran off the road'. They didn't zig zag though. It was like they beelined right off the cliff.
    A few looked at the sign, and realized, 'You know what. I'm probably missing something.'
    They took their time, and avoided the cliff. John 6:26-69
    Which means none of his own are lost. Those whom he allows to run off the cliff were on that road for the wrong reason.

    (2 Timothy 2:19) . . .Jehovah knows those who belong to him. . .and none of them are ever lost. John 6:44
     
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  18. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Only the JWs believe that (2 Timothy 2:19) . . . Says, Jehovah knows those who belong to him. No other bible refers to 'I AM ' in his Hebrew name YHWH, which the JWs have erroneous translated as "Jehovah."
     
  19. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    What are the signs indicating His presence?
     
  20. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    It certainly looks important to see parousia as meaning presence instead of coming. Does this apply to parousia in every instance where it is used in relation to Jesus?
    Are there reasons to divide up the prophecy like that and how is it known how to do it?
     
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