Pete in Panama
Active Member
--but are we together on Chapter 8 being the beginning of what Christ told the disciples?
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JWs & The Bible
- Thread starter nPeace
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A commentary on Daniel ch 8 is here...
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101999029
Tell me your thoughts....
Pete in Panama
Active Member
My thoughts are that off hand if the commentary was comprehensible to you (which I'd imagine would be the case if u were willing to recommend it) then you'd simply tell me what it said as the next step. The fact that you provided the link w/o comment makes me worry that it's incomprehensible to you. Remember, we don't want to go through Chapter 8 (?), 9, 10, 11, and 12 just yet, we're working on this step by step because it's important and it deserves our attention. The good news here is that my guess is that we're at a critical point where we can identify where our difference of opinion lies.
Then again, now that I think of it finding a difference of opinion is a BAD thing, not a good thing, but just the same it's always better to have clarity than agreement. Though, having both is good too.
Anyway here's our question: can we agree that following Christ's instruction means we start w/ Daniel Chapter 8? We need this clear because if so then we can proceed from there.
Pete in Panama
Active Member
That's an excellent question. Where we are is Matthew 24:15--
--and over in post #71 Deeje referred to "—Daniel 9:26, 27; see also Daniel 11:31; 12:11" & I thot I'd follow her lead & suggest we begin w/ where this whole vision w/ desolation began. Remembering how Jesus himself cautioned "let the reader understand" means to me that we need to be totally honest w/ ourselves & each other. Is that what u guys got?
nPeace
Veteran Member
I thought Matthew 24:15 was a quote from Daniel 9. That's what was confusing me, but thanks.
I'm glad you explained this because I thought you were more advanced in your studies than I assumed....sorry.
The commentary I linked to is an explanation of all the features of Daniel's vision...'as follows....
Vision of a ram and a male goat (1-14)
A small horn exalts itself (9-12)
Until 2,300 evenings and mornings (14)
Gabriel interprets the vision (15-27)
The ram and the male goat explained (20, 21)
A fierce-looking king stands up (23-25)
An understanding of how history provided proof of the validity of Daniel's prophesy is important to understanding how its fulfillment plays out down to the present time. Gabriel told Daniel that this vision was "for the time of the end". (Daniel 8:16-17, 19, 27) All of Daniel's prophesies are about the time we are living in now.....we are in the "days of those kings" who are the last in existence before the foretold "coming" of the Kingdom takes place (Daniel 2:44)......these are momentous times.
This is good too. I need specifics so that I can address your concerns. You have not been clear to date on what aspects in Daniel you wish to discuss.
Finding differences is a good starting point to finding agreement......we will let the Bible (and history) speak for itself....yes?
That depends on what it is in Daniel ch 8 that you want to focus on.....there is a lot in that chapter (as there is in all of Daniel's prophesies) and understanding what was in the vision that pertains to our day is important.
Please be specific in your questions......
Pete in Panama
Active Member
That's true, Jesus used a phrase ("abomination that causes desolation") that appears in Chapter 9 and not in Chapter 8, but what we get in Chapter 9 seems (to me at least) to be a continuing discussion of a vision that Daniel starts talking about in Chapter 8. My sincere take is that if we want to obey Christ we can either go to Chapter 8 (which begins the train of thought w/ the "desolation") or first go to Chapter 9 and end up jumping back to Chapter 8 because of his referring to Gabriel and "the vision".
So I suppose that my question now is whether we can go together to Chapter 8 & feel we're complying w/ Matthew 24:15. Shall we?
nPeace
Veteran Member
I understand. Deeje is with you on Chapter 8 of Daniel, but I think like me, she's not sure how to move forward, because we... at least, I am not clear on what you want to do, or how you want to proceed.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Oh, and @Pete in Panama I don't think Chapter 8 fits in with Matthew 24, regarding what Jesus said there.
As Deeje said, all the prophecies in Daniel relate to the Messiah and the time of the end. Understanding how they relate requires understanding other things said by Jesus, and John in Revelations.
As Deeje said, all the prophecies in Daniel relate to the Messiah and the time of the end. Understanding how they relate requires understanding other things said by Jesus, and John in Revelations.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Sorry, I would but I have no access to the EDIT button now. I'll try posting it again with changes and hope that I can post to you and not to myself.
I have trouble at times with posts. I spent what seemed like hours a day or so ago replying to one of your longer posts and when I clicked on reply I had to sign in again to the forum and then I got a "Forum Error" message and lost the whole thing. I'll try to do that one again also soon.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Well the WT interpretation of 3 events is only a could be.
The use of the word coming, would make the text take on the meaning you suggest - that is more specifically the time just before (but can all be put into one) the conclusion of the system of things, because the coming of Christ, as mentioned in the text I referred to here, uses the word coming.
It is important that we recognize that, since that is not referring to when Christ comes as described here...
(Matthew 24:29-31) 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.
No I am not saying that using "presence" at Matt 24:3 is incorrect. However it could be. Why would the disciples know that there would be a "presence"? The word "parousia" is not that cut and dried that it means only "presence".
The disciples were after all responding to the last part of Matt 23. The disciples would have used the word "parousia" to mean the coming that Jesus spoke of in Matt 23:39.
Matt 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Matt 24:1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Brian2
Veteran Member
1Kings 8:26 And now, O God of Israel, please confirm what You promised to Your servant, my father David. 27 But will God indeed dwell upon the earth? Even heaven, the highest heaven, cannot contain You, much less this temple I have built.
Acts 17:27 God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. 28 ‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’
OK then I'll leave you to ponder on the scriptures above, but I like this game so I'll ask another.
It is a thread about JWs and the Bible and if they believe it after all.
Which of the scriptures below is true?
Isa 44:24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,
As applied to Jesus: Heb 1:10 And: “In the beginning, O Lord, You laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
What the heck, here's a some more:
Are the Biblical quotes below true?
John 1:3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
Phil 2:9Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place and gave Him the name above all names, 10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,…
Are both these statements true?
18No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is at the Father’s side, has made Him known.
Ex 24:10 ....and they saw the God of Israel. Under His feet was a work like a pavement made of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not lay His hand on the nobles of Israel; they saw Him, and they ate and drank.
Is the statement below true if people cannot see Jesus with their eyes?
Rev 1:7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
So shall it be! Amen.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Don't worry about that now. It's long past, and I already responded.
Um. What are you doing? Can you please explain.
I don't understand what is the purpose of this.
There is a definite difference in the meaning of the two words. A Greek brother in our congregation said that "parousia" means that a person is already here, not that they are coming (erchoma). Type "parousia" into Google translate and see what the English says it means.
In a Greek classroom, a student answering a roll call would answer "parousia" to indicate that they were already present...not that they are coming.
If Jesus' "parousia" was his "coming" where "every eye would see him" and people would beat themselves in grief because of the realization that they were about to die....why would the disciples need a "sign" to tell them that he was present? It was to be identified by world events, not supernatural ones, but things that identify a time period when all these elements of the sign would be visible in one time period in an unprecedented way. What has been the catch cry of the world in the last couple of years?....events that are "unprecedented!".
That is to occur when Christ comes as judge......also called his "manifestation".....not just his presence as a reigning King, preparing his fellow rulers and subjects for what is to come. No one will be in any doubt then....
nPeace
Veteran Member
Paragraphs 12-14
13 The word parousiʹa literally means “a being alongside,” it being drawn from the Greek preposition paraʹ (“alongside”) and ousía (a “being”). Liddell and Scott’s A Greek-English Lexicon, Volume II, page 1343, column 2, gives as the first definition of parousía the English word “presence.” It gives as the second definition thereof arrival, and then adds: “Especially visit of a royal or official personage.” In agreement with this the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (by Gerhard Friedrich), in Volume V, gives as “The General Meaning” the English word “Presence.” (Page 859) Then, as “The Technical Use of the Terms,” in Hellenism, it gives “1. The Visit of a Ruler.” On page 865 it says concerning “The Technical Use of pareimi [verb] and parousía in the N.T.”: “In the N.T. the terms are never used for the coming of Christ in the flesh, and parousía never has the sense of return. The idea of more than one parousía is first found only in the later Church.”
Pete in Panama
Active Member
It's what I said at the beginning--
--that a short time ago I was in a discussion w/ JW's & we hit a snag & I was hoping we could go further.
Sure there's lots of good stuff there all over, my thinking is that we'd first look at what Jesus told us to do & see where it led us. What we saw together was the phrase that Jesus used showing up in Chapter nine and part of the phrase showing up in Chapter 8, and the discussion in Chapter 9 beginning in Chapter 8.
So can we look at Chapters 8 & 9 together or is there something we're not clear on, something you need to clarify, or whatever?
Brian2
Veteran Member
And with all that the JWs need an invisible Jesus. It is amazing how doctrines fit together.
A risen Jesus with a visible body as Jesus had at His resurrection and as far as we know still has, is not going to work for the JW doctrine of an invisible Jesus being with us for over 100 years now.
nPeace
Veteran Member
Let's take a look.
Post #12
Quote ***
The idea is that we put aside all our accumulated dogma/orthodoxy and say you and I are two collaborators investigating as a team just what the Divine guidance is. We just work w/ what's in the Bible passage by passage that we check out together agreeing all the way or defining what we can't reconcile where ever we hit a snag.
Like we could say, look at Matthew 24 & agree on what it says and elaborate only by referring to other passages in the Bible. Probably we'll be tempted to cite authorities from our particular religious organizations but given our relationship that would have to be on a fwiw basis.
If Mat24 doesn't work for u maybe there's somewhere else in the Bible u'd like to look? To me the advantage of 24 is it seems to be to the point we're interested in.
***Unquote
My responses are in the bright red.
Post #14
Okay. I'll give you the chance to build without a foundation. You go first. Matthew 24... which verse are we starting with?
Post #17
Personally I'd have thought that the Bible itself was the best foundation, but I may be talking about something different than what u mean.
At any rate, I'm looking at the chapter right now & what I see at the beginning is Jesus commenting that everything's going to be torn down & the disciples ask when this is going to happen & how will we know. Sound like what u see at the beginning?
Post #19
When you say everything, do you mean the beloved city of Jerusalem with its temple?
@Pete in Panama do you realize what just happened here?
Post #20
That very well may be the case but I'm more interested in getting into the end times & whether Jerusalem is beloved or not is not my focus. Was there something critical to you here? My preference atm is that we move forward if we can.
Post #22
Matthew 24:1-3
1 Now as Jesus was departing from the temple, his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
Okay, so you are not interested in the first fulfillment - the last days of the Jewish system.
You are interested in the last days of this system.
Okay. So far I am with you.
Yes. There will be signs indicating when the last days would begin. Also Christ's parousia (παρουσία, ας, ἡ) Some use the word presence, while others say coming.
This could present a problem, so what do we do here, as persons starting from scratch?
We have the word usage here.
HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).
What do you suggest?
Post #25
Super!! It is so fantastic that you're willing to go to the original Greek to get as close as possible to the original intent.
Post #26
To The Anointed
We may very well be able to agree on that together but right now we're doing one thing at a time and we haven't gotten to that yet. Right now @nPeace and I are in Matthew 24 where Jesus did specifically describe signs of the end times. It's a bit easier to maintain joint clarity w/ one scriptural passage at a time --for us that is.
Post #28
Of course, I think that's important because some times translators use words that fit their understanding or ideas.
Consider the Greek word parousia. When translated coming, it can convey a wrong understanding of what the original writers were stating.
Consider HELPS Word-studies
3952 parousía (from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation") – properly, coming, especially the arrival of the owner who alone can deal with a situation (cf. LS). 3952 (parousía) is a "technical term with reference to the visit of a king or some other official, 'a royal visit' " (Souter) – "hence, in the NT, specifically of the Advent or Parousia of Christ" (A-S).
[3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence' " (K. Wuest, 3, Bypaths, 33).]
When we consider the literal meaning, right away, we see that coming does not fit.
Coming does not mean arrived, or present.
Yet this is what the Greek word conveys.- personal presence... from parōn, "be present, arrive to enter into a situation".
So for a person now starting out from scratch, a good study Bible is quite useful in helping them get a better perspective... not to mention, if they have a background they have a better understanding.
So we can understand Matthew 24:3 to read ...what will be the sign of your presence, or Fill the blank. so that we can move on.
Post #29
Pse check to see if we're reading this next part together, that we're hearing about false prophets, not the time of the end, earthquakes/famines, not the time of the end, then the Book of Daniel and the Son of Man.
Is that what u got so far?
Let's pause the recording...
I want to put a pin there for reference.
Note :
Pete did not respond to the query on Matthew 24:3 and Jesus presence. Neither Nay, or yeah.... but moved on.
Continued next post.
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nPeace
Veteran Member
Proceeding....
Post #31
...
The prophecy is two-fold.
The second of the two has two parts but closely linked
(Matthew 24:3) . . .“Tell us, when will these things [the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem] be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
Therefore, some of the following verses relate to before the last days of the Jewish system and during, while some relate to both the end of the Jewish system, and the end of the present system, and during Christ's presence.
Looking at the first - the destruction of Jerusalem and it's temple. What signs would preceed it?
Can we say verses 4 to 6?
We know for sure verses 10 to 20.
However, from verse 3 we know that some do apply to future. So we need help in understanding which.
Verse 21 gives us a clue that that is future, and also verse 22,
We can see that verses 13, and 14, also applys to during Christ's presence, and prior to the end.
The Bible can help, as it contains the links, but how does a person starting from scratch, understand these things on their own, without the help of the anointed followers of Christ?
I don't see how. Do you?
Post #32
This is good so far & I'm willing to continue, but somehow I'm hearing you both ways here. Are you saying you can't proceed or are u saying u can & ur willing?
Post #33
No. I can most definitely, and happily proceed. I'm just trying to help you to appreciate why we cannot study the Bible on our own, and really understand the message of the Bible without the help of the Christian congregation of anointed ones.
It's impossible to do.
I would say, one stands a better chance starting from Genesis, but even then, it's big rocks without Jehovah's spirit directed organization. Remember the Ethiopian Eunuch that Phillip helped in the book of Acts?
True, we will come up with many ideas, but will they be in harmony with the rest of scriptures? No. They will not.
I do understand what you mean by starting from scratch, but I can tell you that doing that would send me "bonkers" if I did not have the background and foundation I was referring you to earlier.
Just think about it.
Considering that verse 3 of Matthew 24 clearly shows that there are three "events", and then we can see the rest of the Chapter contains a whole heap of things Jesus said in "one mouthful". how would one even begin to put these in their right perspective?
Most definitely though, I want to continue.
You don't seem to be giving me much on what I present though. Perhaps you are just focused on Daniel?
Post #34
Let's start again from verse 3. Deeje asked a question. How about we go from there? I think proceeding one step at a time will be helpful, and the best place to start is with Jesus' parousía.
What is it, and what exactly does it refer to?
Let's begin here.
......................................................................
Pause..
Perhaps here is wher I lost you.
maybe I went a bit too fast for you, I don't know, but I got no responce after post #34, and post #35, so I proceeded to post #46.
However, In those posts, I covered Matthew 24, and at the end, I specifically said this...
There ends Matthew 24.
Did we miss anything? Right, Jesus quoting Daniel.
Actually, we did not miss it. this was fullfilled from just before 70 CE, to shortly after, but we can look at it closer, if you like.
Let's have a little... Well not just a little, but let's be totally honest here.
First you say, we start at Matthew 24 and the end times, which I proceeded step by step, from Chapters 1-3 - mainly verse 3 being the primary focus.
Understand verse is crucial to moving forward.
Twice I queried your input on verse 3 in regard to the use of the Greek term which I showed refers to Christ's presence. Did you respond?
Not to Jesus' presence in Matthew 24, which you said you wanted to discuss step by step.
instead, you just... I would say, ignored that, and moved along - post #29.
Matthew 24:3 is crucial to our understanding.
So now I am wondering, if the words you said in post #12 are true...
We just work w/ what's in the Bible passage by passage that we check out together agreeing all the way or defining what we can't reconcile where ever we hit a snag.
Like we could say, look at Matthew 24 & agree on what it says and elaborate only by referring to other passages in the Bible.
How is it you find yourself wanting to start at Daniel 8?
Just put yourself in my shoes Pete.
Can I ask.. Is it the case that you are more interested in Daniel, and focusing on the expression "son of man"?
Be honest with me Pete. Let's be open with each other. what is it you are really seeking?
Post #31
...
The prophecy is two-fold.
The second of the two has two parts but closely linked
(Matthew 24:3) . . .“Tell us, when will these things [the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem] be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
Therefore, some of the following verses relate to before the last days of the Jewish system and during, while some relate to both the end of the Jewish system, and the end of the present system, and during Christ's presence.
Looking at the first - the destruction of Jerusalem and it's temple. What signs would preceed it?
Can we say verses 4 to 6?
We know for sure verses 10 to 20.
However, from verse 3 we know that some do apply to future. So we need help in understanding which.
Verse 21 gives us a clue that that is future, and also verse 22,
We can see that verses 13, and 14, also applys to during Christ's presence, and prior to the end.
The Bible can help, as it contains the links, but how does a person starting from scratch, understand these things on their own, without the help of the anointed followers of Christ?
I don't see how. Do you?
Post #32
This is good so far & I'm willing to continue, but somehow I'm hearing you both ways here. Are you saying you can't proceed or are u saying u can & ur willing?
Post #33
No. I can most definitely, and happily proceed. I'm just trying to help you to appreciate why we cannot study the Bible on our own, and really understand the message of the Bible without the help of the Christian congregation of anointed ones.
It's impossible to do.
I would say, one stands a better chance starting from Genesis, but even then, it's big rocks without Jehovah's spirit directed organization. Remember the Ethiopian Eunuch that Phillip helped in the book of Acts?
True, we will come up with many ideas, but will they be in harmony with the rest of scriptures? No. They will not.
I do understand what you mean by starting from scratch, but I can tell you that doing that would send me "bonkers" if I did not have the background and foundation I was referring you to earlier.
Just think about it.
Considering that verse 3 of Matthew 24 clearly shows that there are three "events", and then we can see the rest of the Chapter contains a whole heap of things Jesus said in "one mouthful". how would one even begin to put these in their right perspective?
Most definitely though, I want to continue.
You don't seem to be giving me much on what I present though. Perhaps you are just focused on Daniel?
Post #34
Let's start again from verse 3. Deeje asked a question. How about we go from there? I think proceeding one step at a time will be helpful, and the best place to start is with Jesus' parousía.
What is it, and what exactly does it refer to?
Let's begin here.
......................................................................
Pause..
Perhaps here is wher I lost you.
maybe I went a bit too fast for you, I don't know, but I got no responce after post #34, and post #35, so I proceeded to post #46.
However, In those posts, I covered Matthew 24, and at the end, I specifically said this...
There ends Matthew 24.
Did we miss anything? Right, Jesus quoting Daniel.
Actually, we did not miss it. this was fullfilled from just before 70 CE, to shortly after, but we can look at it closer, if you like.
Let's have a little... Well not just a little, but let's be totally honest here.
First you say, we start at Matthew 24 and the end times, which I proceeded step by step, from Chapters 1-3 - mainly verse 3 being the primary focus.
Understand verse is crucial to moving forward.
Twice I queried your input on verse 3 in regard to the use of the Greek term which I showed refers to Christ's presence. Did you respond?
Not to Jesus' presence in Matthew 24, which you said you wanted to discuss step by step.
instead, you just... I would say, ignored that, and moved along - post #29.
Matthew 24:3 is crucial to our understanding.
So now I am wondering, if the words you said in post #12 are true...
We just work w/ what's in the Bible passage by passage that we check out together agreeing all the way or defining what we can't reconcile where ever we hit a snag.
Like we could say, look at Matthew 24 & agree on what it says and elaborate only by referring to other passages in the Bible.
How is it you find yourself wanting to start at Daniel 8?
Just put yourself in my shoes Pete.
So are we finished with Matthew 24?
Can I ask.. Is it the case that you are more interested in Daniel, and focusing on the expression "son of man"?
Be honest with me Pete. Let's be open with each other. what is it you are really seeking?
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