paarsurrey
Veteran Member
This seems to be the doings of the narrators/scribes. G-d does not belong to Egypt alone.
Regards
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
JWs, please answer!
- Thread starter Redemptionsong
- Start date
This seems to be the doings of the narrators/scribes. G-d does not belong to Egypt alone.
Regards
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
to me it seems you keep moving the goal posts. Last post you claimed that I do not believe in a God (Holy Spirit) that is either personal, or living spirit.
Now you claim that I'm saying Gods holy spirit is something distinct from his nature.
Its really very simple. God has power. He uses his power to carry out any purpose he desires. If he wants to create something, he uses his great creative powers. If he wants to teach us something, he uses his power to open our hearts to understanding. If he wants to inspire his prophets to write his thoughts, he sends forth his power.
Holy spirit is his power. Is that so hard to understand?
John 14:16 I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither sees it nor knows it. You know it, because it remains with you and is in you.
John 14:26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach you all things and bring back to your minds all the things I told you.
1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit that is from God, so that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God.
John 16:7 Nevertheless, I am telling you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper will not come to you; but if I do go, I will send him to you. 8 And when that one comes, he will give the world convincing evidence concerning sin and concerning righteousness and concerning judgment:
John 16:13 However, when that one comes, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come.
According to John 16:7 Jesus will send God's power to be their helper.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Koldo said:
Some of the old translations recognize this as something like -
(1568 Bishops) Yet I am the Lorde thy God [which brought thee] out of the lande of Egypt, & thou shalt knowe no God but me only, neither is there any sauiour besides me.
However, left as is - it could be quite interesting, - as the FIRST ONE GOD - was an Egypt God - and visualized as a SUN.
The Covenant with Moses and YHVH is after they leave Egypt, and is with ONE GOD, and visualized as a Sun in many of the verses.
*
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Fascinating too is how easily the worship of the "sun" became the worship of the "son" in Catholicism. (And later transferred to Protestantism)
Sun worship, along with ancient mother goddess worship is very evident in Catholic imagery.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Ingledsva said:
Fascinating too is how easily the worship of the "sun" became the worship of the "son" in Catholicism. (And later transferred to Protestantism)
Sun worship, along with ancient mother goddess worship is very evident in Catholic imagery.
Which has what exactly to say - about what I wrote?
The Hebrew when they came out of Egypt appear to have brought the Egyptian ONE GOD SUN with them, and to have started worshiping him.
We have multiple Hebrew Sun God verses, - and even Sun God in his Sun Chariot - in Zodiac mosaics - in Hebrew Temples.
*
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Pegg. I'm not moving the goal posts. I'm simple rephrasing a question to ensure clarity.
As I see it, God is Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is LIVING and LOVING. There is power in love, but there is also personality. If God had no personality he would not speak forth his WORD. A force does not produce words.
Now, allow me to ask the same question again. When you speak words, are these words yours, or are they not yours?
If you answer with a YES, I conclude that it is the same with God. His WORD is part of HIM. It is not something separate or distinct. The Word of God becomes GOD WITH US.
If you answer with a NO, I conclude that you will always be unknowable because your words tell me nothing of who you are. In the same way, God will always remain transcendent and a mystery if his words are not true to his being.
As I see it, God is Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit is LIVING and LOVING. There is power in love, but there is also personality. If God had no personality he would not speak forth his WORD. A force does not produce words.
Now, allow me to ask the same question again. When you speak words, are these words yours, or are they not yours?
If you answer with a YES, I conclude that it is the same with God. His WORD is part of HIM. It is not something separate or distinct. The Word of God becomes GOD WITH US.
If you answer with a NO, I conclude that you will always be unknowable because your words tell me nothing of who you are. In the same way, God will always remain transcendent and a mystery if his words are not true to his being.
WOW! :foryou:
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
ok, can you provide some scriptural references that show personality?
do his words also have personality in your view?
Words are personality. The words a person chooses to say or not to say define what the person is like.
JWs say holy spirit is power. Power is not words. But the helper (the holy spirit?) comes to a person with understanding. Understanding needs words.
Is the helper of John 14:16,17 holy spirit? If not, what is it? 16 And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, 17 the spirit of the truth,
There are scriptures that say the "power" of God is not in words. If power is God's holy spirit where do the words come from?
1 Cor 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.
1 Corinthians 2:4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,
Also,
1 Thessalonians 1:5 Because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.
JWs say holy spirit is power. Power is not words. But the helper (the holy spirit?) comes to a person with understanding. Understanding needs words.
Is the helper of John 14:16,17 holy spirit? If not, what is it? 16 And I will ask the Father and he will give you another helper to be with you forever, 17 the spirit of the truth,
There are scriptures that say the "power" of God is not in words. If power is God's holy spirit where do the words come from?
1 Cor 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power.
1 Corinthians 2:4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power,
Also,
1 Thessalonians 1:5 Because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.
The question is; What is the "spirit of the truth" if NOT Holy Spirit?
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Pegg,
Matthew 12:36, 37; ' But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned'.
I understand this to mean that words can BE LIFE and words can BE DEATH.
A word in itself is just a sound that communicates meaning. But when a word is understood and made one's own through FAITH, it is transformed into life or death.
This is why faith in God's Word is so important. If one is filled with good faith, one produces good fruit. And our works follow our faith.
The scripture clearly teaches this truth. Revelation 19:13, 'And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.'
The risen Christ IS the Word of God.
1 John 5:7; 'For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.'
1 John 5:10;' He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.'
The word of God resides in his spirit. God created the heavens and earth using his WORD.
At the time of John's baptism, the Holy Spirit or Word of God entered Jesus, and that same spirit (containing the Word of God) is shed abroad to those who place their faith in Christ Jesus.
Matthew 12:36, 37; ' But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned'.
I understand this to mean that words can BE LIFE and words can BE DEATH.
A word in itself is just a sound that communicates meaning. But when a word is understood and made one's own through FAITH, it is transformed into life or death.
This is why faith in God's Word is so important. If one is filled with good faith, one produces good fruit. And our works follow our faith.
The scripture clearly teaches this truth. Revelation 19:13, 'And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.'
The risen Christ IS the Word of God.
1 John 5:7; 'For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.'
1 John 5:10;' He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.'
The word of God resides in his spirit. God created the heavens and earth using his WORD.
At the time of John's baptism, the Holy Spirit or Word of God entered Jesus, and that same spirit (containing the Word of God) is shed abroad to those who place their faith in Christ Jesus.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
sure, what you are saying here is true, Gods word gives life to those who accept it. I would never deny that.
But does this make Gods word a living individual?
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
1 John 5:7; For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
btw, this verse has been modified by trinitarians. There are old manuscripts which do not have these words in red. So many translations no longer include these words.
btw, this verse has been modified by trinitarians. There are old manuscripts which do not have these words in red. So many translations no longer include these words.
Jesus? Jesus is a living individual.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Yes he did. But who was Jesus talking to? Whom did he instruct to "feed his sheep"....just one man? (John 21:15-17) Were the Christian scriptures written by just one man in isolation from the collective brotherhood? What Christian was ever used as a 'one man band' giving his own opinion as to what he personally thought Jesus said? Were Christ's disciples separated from the ones with whom they were told to gather together? What was purpose of a congregation if all that was necessary was to have Jesus teach you as an individual?
Yes he did. But who was Jesus talking to? Whom did he instruct to "feed his sheep"....just one man? (John 21:15-17) Were the Christian scriptures written by just one man in isolation from the collective brotherhood? What Christian was ever used as a 'one man band' giving his own opinion as to what he personally thought Jesus said? Were Christ's disciples separated from the ones with whom they were told to gather together? What was purpose of a congregation if all that was necessary was to have Jesus teach you as an individual?
But my comment in context was a question to the claim "holy spirit is power with no words". But how can no words teach? How can no words convey truth? Isn't truth words? What is truth?
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
How does the spirit of God communicate with humans? It inspires them inside their own hearts and minds. The scriptures were not dictated literally, word for word or else the gospels would all be the same. God inspires thought and motivates actions, but he does not impose his will....he will never force us against our own will. That is why his judgments are so fair. We are not condemned by him...we are condemned by what is in our hearts, and this is manifest in our words.
How does the spirit of God communicate with humans? It inspires them inside their own hearts and minds. The scriptures were not dictated literally, word for word or else the gospels would all be the same. God inspires thought and motivates actions, but he does not impose his will....he will never force us against our own will. That is why his judgments are so fair. We are not condemned by him...we are condemned by what is in our hearts, and this is manifest in our words.
Is thought words? Where do the words come from? You might say "the Bible". Where did the words come from that caused the writing of it?
Moishe3rd
Yehudi
I only read thefirst few pages from the beginning and the end of this thread so, y'all may have discussed this - I am always curious as to WHY Christians want Jews to believe that their particular take on Torah or Tanach; the "old testament," should be relevant for Jews or other people who are not Christians?
If people actually studied the Torah and Tanach in the original Hebrew with the original commentaries and interpretations of the last 3,000 years, they might understand how tortuous are the Christian interpretations which were invented retroactively to reconcile the new testament with the "old testament."
Of course, the theological answer to my question from 2,000 years ago as determined by the early church fathers was that if Christianity was right, then the Jews had to be wrong.
Therefore, the Christian version of Tanach had to correspond with the Christian new testament.
Otherwise, if the Jews were right - then the Christians had to be wrong.
That was not an acceptable theological outlook at the time.
This particular problem has largely been set aside in our "modern, enlightened" age of "can't we all just get along."
But - I can see that it still puzzles some.
I would suggest, barring your learning Hebrew and studying the original texts for many years, that you who are trying to harmonize Judaism and Christianity, try to study the original history of Christianity and the works of the early church fathers to understand how important it was to Christians that the Jews "were wrong."
If people actually studied the Torah and Tanach in the original Hebrew with the original commentaries and interpretations of the last 3,000 years, they might understand how tortuous are the Christian interpretations which were invented retroactively to reconcile the new testament with the "old testament."
Of course, the theological answer to my question from 2,000 years ago as determined by the early church fathers was that if Christianity was right, then the Jews had to be wrong.
Therefore, the Christian version of Tanach had to correspond with the Christian new testament.
Otherwise, if the Jews were right - then the Christians had to be wrong.
That was not an acceptable theological outlook at the time.
This particular problem has largely been set aside in our "modern, enlightened" age of "can't we all just get along."
But - I can see that it still puzzles some.
I would suggest, barring your learning Hebrew and studying the original texts for many years, that you who are trying to harmonize Judaism and Christianity, try to study the original history of Christianity and the works of the early church fathers to understand how important it was to Christians that the Jews "were wrong."