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Discussion in 'Agnosticism' started by Cockadoodledoo, Jan 17, 2017.

  1. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    Would you gauge ours as an "eternal universe"? Is it "an infinite void"? If it isn't eternal - when do you suppose it ends? And how is it not still "the universe" after that "end"?
     
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  2. Baroodi

    Baroodi Active Member

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    No human can get to know the nature of the universe because of his physical limitations that prevent him from probing into this world. Guessing and fortune telling is no sense.
    If we have to know anything we have to have it via scientific methods ( which are of limited capacities inspite of its later advances). Hence we have to get the facts from the creator, God via his revealations. No wholy book mention good facts about the universe except Quran.
     
  3. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    I've heard this before, though. States are positive, which refers to their use grammatically, in conjunction with "is," to express something (a posit) about The World. They are also existent, not failing to be a part (a composite) of the world. If the void is the alternative to the world, then it is not a state. We can compose sentences about things that don't exist, such as Santa Claus, but as claims those sentences cannot have a real-world referent. While we can speak the words, we cannot genuinely make the claim with any intellectual honesty. They are not posits.

    If the alternative to the void is all possible positive states, then the void is neither a state, nor possible.


    That said, I would entertain a discussion about the impossible nonexistent void. :)
     
    #23 Willamena, Jan 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017
  4. Willamena

    Willamena Just me
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    I don't believe that "nothing" is a "state" from which things can emerge. Things emerge from other existents. "Nothing" is an intellectual result, when we mentally subtract "something" from the pictures that compose our minds--subtract all, and you have the void. However much it may be interesting to imagine something emerging from its negation, or its negation emerging from it, really it's just a mental flip-flop.

    We can, equally, easily imagine a universe that has always existed.

    It seems to me that death becomes meaningless if we talk about afterlives. If the consciousness that lives on is the real "me," and if death refers only to the passing of the physical body, then there is no real death. "I" never died. Similarly for if a soul is the real "me." What you fantasize is a continuing life, not an after-death. If, on the other hand, the physical body is the real "me" and if death means what I think it does, then nothing survives death.


    That said, I highly approve of theories that involve The Future Scientists.

    Thank you, for bringing your ideas to the table!
     
  5. Cockadoodledoo

    Cockadoodledoo You’re going to get me!

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    I believe it's an eternal system that should be an infinite void but isn't, probably because a state of intelligence devised a way of bringing itself into existence, out of the void, and once existing, the intelligent state will do all in it's powers to prevent itself from ever becoming non existent again.
     
    #25 Cockadoodledoo, Jan 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2017
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  6. Cockadoodledoo

    Cockadoodledoo You’re going to get me!

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    I too would entertain a discussion about the impossible existent universe.
     
  7. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    I believe the universe (and all material in it) has always existed and is propagated throughout the universe in a revolution or cycle of contraction and expansion over incredibly vast amounts of time. I also believe that humanity's existence in said universe could easily be deemed utterly inconsequential to all but humanity itself.
     
  8. Cockadoodledoo

    Cockadoodledoo You’re going to get me!

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    I think there is a much greater chance for an 'intelligent state' to come into existence, compared to a 'dumb state'. It's a bit like trying to get 100 dumb monkeys to type randomly a work of Shakespeare.

    In the beginning I believe there was nothing. Then somewhere, sometime, something happened. As a result we're here and we're in possession of the most powerful force in the universe, Intelligence. (Intelligence I believe is a force because we can apply that intelligence to manipulate reality).

    One day, will that intelligence be able to manipulate time, and create and fine tune our own home (the universe) to allow the development of that same intelligence?
     
    #28 Cockadoodledoo, Jan 20, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2017
  9. Cockadoodledoo

    Cockadoodledoo You’re going to get me!

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    Why don't we do some creative thinking:-

    Let us pretend that in the beginning there was nothing.....a void.
    Let us also pretend the reality that we know is a figment of our imagination,
    And that the true reality is like a blank canvas awaiting to be painted.

    So, the aim is you want to bring your consciousness, or your ability to think, into existence.
    So how would you do this?

    Hopefully we can make progress.
     
    #29 Cockadoodledoo, Jan 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  10. Cockadoodledoo

    Cockadoodledoo You’re going to get me!

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    What
    Ok, perhaps a void is impossible..........but...........

    What if the Universe came into existence, or always existed, and went about doing it's thing, but evolution happened, resulting in our brains and bodies, which now made it possible for humans to alter/manipulate reality, resulting in some, or all, aspects of reality that were ultimately controlled by things that human brains designed.

    In other words... the universe gave rise to a human mind-feedback system, which will ultimately control reality. So we may never have seen a 'natural' universe, but a reality dependant on human creativity. Furthermore, with reality dependant on human creativity, an afterlife could also be on the cards.
     
    #30 Cockadoodledoo, Jan 23, 2017
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  11. Cockadoodledoo

    Cockadoodledoo You’re going to get me!

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    We once lived in caves.
    Rocks can be moved or ground to dust.
    Artificial diamonds can be made.
    Anti-matter can be made.
    What will Science be like in the 221st Century?
    How do you know the humanity will not gain mastery over the universe?
    Hence, how do you know humanity is a by-product?
    Because humanity is on the scene, I don't think it's possible to know what a natural Universe (one without humanity) would be like. Humanity could have designed order into a potentially chaotic universe.
     
  12. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    your states are erroneous. being a void, or empty of form/definition, doesn't require a lack of intelligence. they can be compatible. consciousness doesn't have an exact form; so it is in fact, formless.
     
  13. Cockadoodledoo

    Cockadoodledoo You’re going to get me!

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    There was me, thinking I was making sense!
     
    #33 Cockadoodledoo, Jan 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2017
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  14. A Vestigial Mote

    A Vestigial Mote Well-Known Member

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    This didn't make any sense to me. What are you contesting and on what grounds? You contest that humanity is a by-product of the universe because some day we might have mastery over everything? We were still born from "ignorance", regardless whether we approach some height of existence. So what?
     
  15. Cockadoodledoo

    Cockadoodledoo You’re going to get me!

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    If AI Robots eventually colonise the Universe, and solve all problems, including time travel, then what will this mean for the average human being that was born into the tree of evolution?
     
  16. Revoltingest

    Revoltingest I have the kavorka
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    If we're lucky, we'll be their pets.
     
  17. Cockadoodledoo

    Cockadoodledoo You’re going to get me!

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    What I should have said is......

    ......what Could this mean for the average human being that was born into the tree of evolution?
     
  18. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

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    the universe is a wild bull, some intelligence had to tackle and tame it to make life.

    the intelligence that did that, is totally alien in nature to that of humans and most likely eternal.

    life is in a forever wrestling match with nature in order to make abode.

    So this intelligence created a force that pervades the universe, call it Logia. The Great forming force is everywhere in the universe, trying every conceivable condition and logic. Yet the logia isn't tangible, but it is omnipresent, and it collects information, and has a code of constructing entities in the universe.

    we are spawned from an eternal intelligence trying to get a handle on existence.

    as you can tell I enjoy hypothetical possibility.
     
    #38 osgart, Aug 19, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  19. Twilight Hue

    Twilight Hue The gentle embrace of twilight has become my guide

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    Strange thing is I can't envision any end personally. If there were, how could such an "end" be defined as?

    The realitydynamics of it all are freaky as Hell. ;0)
     
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