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Just like that

Baroodi

Active Member
No human can get to know the nature of the universe because of his physical limitations that prevent him from probing into this world. Guessing and fortune telling is no sense.
If we have to know anything we have to have it via scientific methods ( which are of limited capacities inspite of its later advances). Hence we have to get the facts from the creator, God via his revealations. No wholy book mention good facts about the universe except Quran.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
All I'm suggesting is.....if an intelligence didn't devise a way of creating itself from nothing, then nothing would exist and therefore a void would be the default state.
I've heard this before, though. States are positive, which refers to their use grammatically, in conjunction with "is," to express something (a posit) about The World. They are also existent, not failing to be a part (a composite) of the world. If the void is the alternative to the world, then it is not a state. We can compose sentences about things that don't exist, such as Santa Claus, but as claims those sentences cannot have a real-world referent. While we can speak the words, we cannot genuinely make the claim with any intellectual honesty. They are not posits.

If the alternative to the void is all possible positive states, then the void is neither a state, nor possible.


That said, I would entertain a discussion about the impossible nonexistent void. :)
 
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Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
If an intelligence was intelligent enough to devise a way of bringing itself into existence from nothing, then the system could exist in State 2, an Intelligent System. If an intelligence could never devise a way of bringing itself into existence from nothing, the system would exist in State 1, a void, for eternity. A State 2 System will exist only if an intelligence solves how to create itself from nothing.
I don't believe that "nothing" is a "state" from which things can emerge. Things emerge from other existents. "Nothing" is an intellectual result, when we mentally subtract "something" from the pictures that compose our minds--subtract all, and you have the void. However much it may be interesting to imagine something emerging from its negation, or its negation emerging from it, really it's just a mental flip-flop.

So we know both you and I exist. Therefore we can conclude that the system exists in State 2, i.e., an intelligence did in fact devise a way of bringing itself into existence from nothing. Otherwise nothing would exist. We also know that we exist in the universe. Therefore, assuming God does not exist, it may be appropriate to assume that the universe is the method by which the intelligence brought itself into existence. Hence, humans could be the 'Intelligence' of the State 2 System.
We can, equally, easily imagine a universe that has always existed.

In our State 2 System, humans die. This is a problem, and so here are two possible solutions:-

3.1 Solution 1 : Einstein's Afterlife Realm

Let's say Einstein is about to die, but before he does a 'being', working behind the scenes, transfers Einstein's consciousness to a robot shell which Einstein is quickly able to control. Einstein then makes his way towards a light where he finds a room. There, Einstein realises that having died, and as there is no God, he must have created the robot shell and afterlife room himself.

So Einstein gets to work, first discovering how time travel can be accomplished, and then discovering how to create building blocks from nothing. So he travels back 100 years, and by creating building blocks, he builds the afterlife room. He then builds a robot shell from more building blocks and brings it to his death bed, where, behind the scenes, he transfers the dying Einstein's consciousness to the robot shell.

So a simple afterlife awaits Einstein. Now consider what can be achieved together with all the scientists who have or will die:- the afterlife room will be perfected to become the afterlife realm, and the robot shell will be perfected to become the spirit body.

So this is Solution 1 to the problem of death. Now for Solution 2:-

3.2 Solution 2 : The Future's Afterlife Realm

Let's say scientists in the distant future build an afterlife realm and spirit bodies. Then, using time travel, they travel back in time to the moment of your death and transfer your consciousness to a spirit body which is then released into the afterlife realm.

So by transferring our consciousness, nanoseconds before death, to spirit bodies in the afterlife realm which scientists in the future have created, humans could become immortal and exist for eternity.
It seems to me that death becomes meaningless if we talk about afterlives. If the consciousness that lives on is the real "me," and if death refers only to the passing of the physical body, then there is no real death. "I" never died. Similarly for if a soul is the real "me." What you fantasize is a continuing life, not an after-death. If, on the other hand, the physical body is the real "me" and if death means what I think it does, then nothing survives death.


That said, I highly approve of theories that involve The Future Scientists.

Through reasoning I have tried to solve the mysteries of reality. It is hoped that you will be able to use these ideas if you think they have potential.


Cockadoodledoo
Thank you, for bringing your ideas to the table!
 

Cockadoodledoo

You’re going to get me!
Would you gauge ours as an "eternal universe"? Is it "an infinite void"? If it isn't eternal - when do you suppose it ends? And how is it not still "the universe" after that "end"?
I believe it's an eternal system that should be an infinite void but isn't, probably because a state of intelligence devised a way of bringing itself into existence, out of the void, and once existing, the intelligent state will do all in it's powers to prevent itself from ever becoming non existent again.
 
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A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I believe it's an eternal system that should be an infinite void but isn't, probably because a state of intelligence devised a way of bringing itself into existence, out of the void, and once existing, the intelligent state will do all in it's powers to prevent itself from ever becoming non existent again.
I believe the universe (and all material in it) has always existed and is propagated throughout the universe in a revolution or cycle of contraction and expansion over incredibly vast amounts of time. I also believe that humanity's existence in said universe could easily be deemed utterly inconsequential to all but humanity itself.
 

Cockadoodledoo

You’re going to get me!
I think there is a much greater chance for an 'intelligent state' to come into existence, compared to a 'dumb state'. It's a bit like trying to get 100 dumb monkeys to type randomly a work of Shakespeare.

In the beginning I believe there was nothing. Then somewhere, sometime, something happened. As a result we're here and we're in possession of the most powerful force in the universe, Intelligence. (Intelligence I believe is a force because we can apply that intelligence to manipulate reality).

One day, will that intelligence be able to manipulate time, and create and fine tune our own home (the universe) to allow the development of that same intelligence?
 
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Cockadoodledoo

You’re going to get me!
Why don't we do some creative thinking:-

Let us pretend that in the beginning there was nothing.....a void.
Let us also pretend the reality that we know is a figment of our imagination,
And that the true reality is like a blank canvas awaiting to be painted.

So, the aim is you want to bring your consciousness, or your ability to think, into existence.
So how would you do this?

Hopefully we can make progress.
 
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Cockadoodledoo

You’re going to get me!
What
I would entertain a discussion about the impossible nonexistent void. :)

Ok, perhaps a void is impossible..........but...........

What if the Universe came into existence, or always existed, and went about doing it's thing, but evolution happened, resulting in our brains and bodies, which now made it possible for humans to alter/manipulate reality, resulting in some, or all, aspects of reality that were ultimately controlled by things that human brains designed.

In other words... the universe gave rise to a human mind-feedback system, which will ultimately control reality. So we may never have seen a 'natural' universe, but a reality dependant on human creativity. Furthermore, with reality dependant on human creativity, an afterlife could also be on the cards.
 
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Cockadoodledoo

You’re going to get me!
So, rocks were created for us by the intelligence that managed to create itself from nothing? Or humans created rocks by using intelligence to forge themselves out of nothing?

I have to say I'd vote for the universe having been in existence for eternity before I'd subscribe to either of those ideas. If you're looking for a by-product, it's humanity - and absolutely nothing in this universe is obligated to pander to us in any way. Not even rocks.
So, rocks were created for us by the intelligence that managed to create itself from nothing? Or humans created rocks by using intelligence to forge themselves out of nothing?

I have to say I'd vote for the universe having been in existence for eternity before I'd subscribe to either of those ideas. If you're looking for a by-product, it's humanity - and absolutely nothing in this universe is obligated to pander to us in any way. Not even rocks.

We once lived in caves.
Rocks can be moved or ground to dust.
Artificial diamonds can be made.
Anti-matter can be made.
What will Science be like in the 221st Century?
How do you know the humanity will not gain mastery over the universe?
Hence, how do you know humanity is a by-product?
Because humanity is on the scene, I don't think it's possible to know what a natural Universe (one without humanity) would be like. Humanity could have designed order into a potentially chaotic universe.
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
1.0 Introduction

In the following thread I give a possible reason for the existence of the universe, and two solutions to the problem of death. Please note, the following assumes that God does not exist as (s)he complicates the ideas. So, let us begin............

2.0 State of the System

To understand reality we must first define two terms, 'System' and 'State':-

2.1 System

The system is that fundamental reality in which we find ourselves. We know we exist in the universe, so therefore we can conclude the universe exists within the system.

2.2 State

A tossed coin comes to rest in either the 'state of heads' or the 'state of tails'. So, in a way, a state is the possible realities of the system.

So now that we understand both system and state we can proceed. It is reasoned that the system can exist in one of only two possible states, 'State 1' or 'State 2'.

2.3 State 1 : The Void

State 1, which is an eternal, infinite, empty void, is the first possible state of the system. Nothing comes from nothing, and that is why State 1 is an eternal void. It is reasonable to think that the system could only exist in this state, State 1, but another state is possible as we shall find out.

2.4 State 2 : The Intelligent System

If an intelligence was intelligent enough to devise a way of bringing itself into existence from nothing, then the system could exist in State 2, an Intelligent System. If an intelligence could never devise a way of bringing itself into existence from nothing, the system would exist in State 1, a void, for eternity. A State 2 System will exist only if an intelligence solves how to create itself from nothing.

2.5 Reality

So we know both you and I exist. Therefore we can conclude that the system exists in State 2, i.e., an intelligence did in fact devise a way of bringing itself into existence from nothing. Otherwise nothing would exist. We also know that we exist in the universe. Therefore, assuming God does not exist, it may be appropriate to assume that the universe is the method by which the intelligence brought itself into existence. Hence, humans could be the 'Intelligence' of the State 2 System.

3.0 Afterlife

In our State 2 System, humans die. This is a problem, and so here are two possible solutions:-

3.1 Solution 1 : Einstein's Afterlife Realm

Let's say Einstein is about to die, but before he does a 'being', working behind the scenes, transfers Einstein's consciousness to a robot shell which Einstein is quickly able to control. Einstein then makes his way towards a light where he finds a room. There, Einstein realises that having died, and as there is no God, he must have created the robot shell and afterlife room himself.

So Einstein gets to work, first discovering how time travel can be accomplished, and then discovering how to create building blocks from nothing. So he travels back 100 years, and by creating building blocks, he builds the afterlife room. He then builds a robot shell from more building blocks and brings it to his death bed, where, behind the scenes, he transfers the dying Einstein's consciousness to the robot shell.

So a simple afterlife awaits Einstein. Now consider what can be achieved together with all the scientists who have or will die:- the afterlife room will be perfected to become the afterlife realm, and the robot shell will be perfected to become the spirit body.

So this is Solution 1 to the problem of death. Now for Solution 2:-

3.2 Solution 2 : The Future's Afterlife Realm

Let's say scientists in the distant future build an afterlife realm and spirit bodies. Then, using time travel, they travel back in time to the moment of your death and transfer your consciousness to a spirit body which is then released into the afterlife realm.

So by transferring our consciousness, nanoseconds before death, to spirit bodies in the afterlife realm which scientists in the future have created, humans could become immortal and exist for eternity.

4.0 Summary

Above I have suggested that an intelligence, possibly human, devised a way of bringing itself into existence from nothing, and the method it used was to create the universe. I then gave two possible solutions to the problem of death:- Firstly, by creating an afterlife realm after death, and secondly, by creating an afterlife realm in the future.

5.0 Conclusion

Through reasoning I have tried to solve the mysteries of reality. It is hoped that you will be able to use these ideas if you think they have potential.


Cockadoodledoo

your states are erroneous. being a void, or empty of form/definition, doesn't require a lack of intelligence. they can be compatible. consciousness doesn't have an exact form; so it is in fact, formless.
 

Cockadoodledoo

You’re going to get me!
your states are erroneous. being a void, or empty of form/definition, doesn't require a lack of intelligence. they can be compatible. consciousness doesn't have an exact form; so it is in fact, formless.

There was me, thinking I was making sense!
 
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A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
We once lived in caves.
Rocks can be moved or ground to dust.
Artificial diamonds can be made.
Anti-matter can be made.
What will Science be like in the 221st Century?
How do you know the humanity will not gain mastery over the universe?
Hence, how do you know humanity is a by-product?
Because humanity is on the scene, I don't think it's possible to know what a natural Universe (one without humanity) would be like. Humanity could have designed order into a potentially chaotic universe.
This didn't make any sense to me. What are you contesting and on what grounds? You contest that humanity is a by-product of the universe because some day we might have mastery over everything? We were still born from "ignorance", regardless whether we approach some height of existence. So what?
 

Cockadoodledoo

You’re going to get me!
If AI Robots eventually colonise the Universe, and solve all problems, including time travel, then what will this mean for the average human being that was born into the tree of evolution?
 

Cockadoodledoo

You’re going to get me!
If AI Robots eventually colonise the Universe, and solve all problems, including time travel, then what will this mean for the average human being that was born into the tree of evolution?

What I should have said is......

......what Could this mean for the average human being that was born into the tree of evolution?
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
the universe is a wild bull, some intelligence had to tackle and tame it to make life.

the intelligence that did that, is totally alien in nature to that of humans and most likely eternal.

life is in a forever wrestling match with nature in order to make abode.

So this intelligence created a force that pervades the universe, call it Logia. The Great forming force is everywhere in the universe, trying every conceivable condition and logic. Yet the logia isn't tangible, but it is omnipresent, and it collects information, and has a code of constructing entities in the universe.

we are spawned from an eternal intelligence trying to get a handle on existence.

as you can tell I enjoy hypothetical possibility.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
......If it isn't eternal - when do you suppose it ends? And how is it not still "the universe" after that "end"?
Strange thing is I can't envision any end personally. If there were, how could such an "end" be defined as?

The realitydynamics of it all are freaky as Hell. ;0)
 
Above I have suggested that an intelligence, possibly human, devised a way of bringing itself into existence from nothing, and the method it used was to create the universe. I then gave two possible solutions to the problem of death:- Firstly, by creating an afterlife realm after death, and secondly, by creating an afterlife realm in the future.
You sound like an atheist. Its possible for God to meet our wildest dreams. This is what makes the story and teaching of Jesus so remarkable. Jesus is God but came as a man and brought spiritual principals, morals and identity to the common man. Everything heavenly is opposite to the natural way of thinking. Heaven is full of humble people. God likes being simple. He believes in the glory of a rejected man, The proud suffer mentally, spirituality is self love which reaches out to others. Etc
 
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