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Judaism: Book of Exodus neither written by Moses nor dictated by him

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Kirran said:
Might be lost in translation. Might have been a literary style at the time. Might have had somebody write it for him by dictation, at least in parts, who didn't feel comfortable writing it in the first person.
It is unlikely that it was "lost in translation" as "I" is mentioned many times throughout the book of Exodus in dialog. It apparently wasn't the literary style at the time as other manuscripts and books of prophets do mention "I". If the latter argument would have truth to it, then it would mean that Moses didn't write the book.
A very good argument indeed.
Regards
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
I've only heard the Joshua option before. It would be reasonable.
A Verse To Death « Ask The Rabbi « Ohr Somayach

"The Talmud (Bava Batra 15b) asks your second question: Who wrote the last eight verses of the Torah which describe Moses's death? The Talmud offers two answers. According to one opinion, Joshua wrote them. According to the other opinion, Moses himself wrote them using tears instead of ink. After Moses died, Joshua traced over the letters with ink.

Some explain the Talmud to mean that Moses wrote the last eight verses not with tears, but rather in a jumbled fashion. In Hebrew, the word for "tears" (dima) is spelled the same way as the word "jumbled" (dema). That is, Moses wrote the last eight verses with no spaces to differentiate between the end of one word and the beginning of the next. It was left to Joshua to split up the words. "
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Even if I believed God were real, this argument would utterly fail to convince me as there would be no need and no reason for God to give Moses dictation chronicling the events of his own life. It is also inconsistent with other writings of the Bible where the authors referred to themselves in the 1st person.
It is a good thing have no interest in convincing you of anything.
 

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
Thats not the work of Moses pbuh. Modernday torah is not 100% authentic how it used to be.

Book of Exodus in third person style is evidence.
 

Kolibri

Well-Known Member
A Verse To Death « Ask The Rabbi « Ohr Somayach

"The Talmud (Bava Batra 15b) asks your second question: Who wrote the last eight verses of the Torah which describe Moses's death? The Talmud offers two answers. According to one opinion, Joshua wrote them. According to the other opinion, Moses himself wrote them using tears instead of ink. After Moses died, Joshua traced over the letters with ink.

Some explain the Talmud to mean that Moses wrote the last eight verses not with tears, but rather in a jumbled fashion. In Hebrew, the word for "tears" (dima) is spelled the same way as the word "jumbled" (dema). That is, Moses wrote the last eight verses with no spaces to differentiate between the end of one word and the beginning of the next. It was left to Joshua to split up the words. "

Thank-you @rosends for providing a source. I personally find it easy to accept that first opinion is the accurate one. Though I have also just read that Eleazar the high priest at the time may have been an alternate to Joshua being used to write the closing remarks.

I found this interesting...

- Pentateuch — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Writership. There is no single text saying that Moses wrote the entire Pentateuch, but scattered throughout the material are explicit statements serving the same purpose. (Ex 17:14; 24:4; 34:27; Nu 33:2; De 31:9, 19, 22, 24-26) There are also many sections where the words are directly credited to Moses, beginning with his first recorded conversation (Ex 2:13, 14), continuing to his final blessing on the people (De 33:1-29), and including some of his lengthy speeches (De 1:1; 5:1; 27:1; 29:2; 31:1) and notable songs. (Ex 15:1-19; De 31:30–32:43) The opening verses of 20 out of 27 chapters of Leviticus tell us that what follows are the words of Jehovah spoken to Moses so he, in turn, could inform the people. The same is true in more than 50 instances in the book of Numbers. So, with the exception of the closing verses of Deuteronomy, the evidence within the Pentateuch itself shows that its writership properly belongs to Moses.

Many other passages in the Bible witness to the fact that the Pentateuch was from the hand of Moses. (Jos 1:7; Jg 3:4; 2Ki 18:6; Mal 4:4) Such men as David (1Ki 2:1-3), Daniel (9:11), Ezra (6:18), Nehemiah (8:1), Jesus (Mr 12:26; Lu 16:29; Joh 7:19), Luke (24:27), and John (1:17) make references to this work as that of Moses. More directly to the point, Jesus acknowledged that Moses was the writer (Mr 10:3-5; Joh 5:46, 47), as did also the Sadducees.—Mr 12:18, 19.


....but no amount of evidence is enough for some people. Whether that remains true for those posting in this thread remains to be seen.
 
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rosends

Well-Known Member
Thank-you @rosends for providing a source. I personally find it easy to accept that first opinion is the accurate one. Though I have also just read that Eleazar the high priest at the time may have been an alternate to Joshua being used to write the closing remarks.

I found this interesting...

- Pentateuch — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
Writership. There is no single text saying that Moses wrote the entire Pentateuch, but scattered throughout the material are explicit statements serving the same purpose. (Ex 17:14; 24:4; 34:27; Nu 33:2; De 31:9, 19, 22, 24-26) There are also many sections where the words are directly credited to Moses, beginning with his first recorded conversation (Ex 2:13, 14), continuing to his final blessing on the people (De 33:1-29), and including some of his lengthy speeches (De 1:1; 5:1; 27:1; 29:2; 31:1) and notable songs. (Ex 15:1-19; De 31:30–32:43) The opening verses of 20 out of 27 chapters of Leviticus tell us that what follows are the words of Jehovah spoken to Moses so he, in turn, could inform the people. The same is true in more than 50 instances in the book of Numbers. So, with the exception of the closing verses of Deuteronomy, the evidence within the Pentateuch itself shows that its writership properly belongs to Moses.

Many other passages in the Bible witness to the fact that the Pentateuch was from the hand of Moses. (Jos 1:7; Jg 3:4; 2Ki 18:6; Mal 4:4) Such men as David (1Ki 2:1-3), Daniel (9:11), Ezra (6:18), Nehemiah (8:1), Jesus (Mr 12:26; Lu 16:29; Joh 7:19), Luke (24:27), and John (1:17) make references to this work as that of Moses. More directly to the point, Jesus acknowledged that Moses was the writer (Mr 10:3-5; Joh 5:46, 47), as did also the Sadducees.—Mr 12:18, 19.


....but no amount of evidence is enough for some people. Whether that remains true for those posting in this thread remains to be seen.
There is no evidence or proof. This point cannot be proven or disproven. It is a function of faith. Someone's simply asserting that "X must be the case" is doomed to failure. I fear that my posts copying this technique to show how fruitless it is will be misunderstood.
 

JacobEzra.

Dr. Greenthumb
Thats not the work of Moses pbuh. Modernday torah is not 100% authentic how it used to be.

Book of Exodus in third person style is evidence.
.... said as if believing in a scripture that was written and compiled after its prophet died. And is supposedly gathered by "witnessess" who supposedly memorized it. Then it was gathered and sanctioned by a government.

And thats not the best part. As hadith is also a big part of islamic scripture and its supposedly long lists of authors and vague 'scholarship' deem which is either authentic, maybe authentic, and fabricated.
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Its well known that Moses never existed, so of course the scribes of that time wrote the books , its no rocket science.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
How do you know?

Regards
The same way you know definitively it wasn't. You establish a threshold of evidence and then quote facts which satisfy that standard. I have a standard which is satisfied by textual proofs and circumstantial evidence.
 

Juhurka

Member
Thats not the work of Moses pbuh. Modernday torah is not 100% authentic how it used to be.

Book of Exodus in third person style is evidence.

And finally you revealed your Islamic replacement theology. How do you know that Torah is not authentic? because your imam said so or your quaran? what is the intent of your initial question? to say that the Jews corrupted the Torah and islam came to replace it? This is getting tiresome. Is your religion so weak that you must validate it by bashing other religions? Do you see any Jews questioning the fact the the quran was written by an illiterate psycho who had nothing to do but to copy Torah and validate it by claiming it is corrupt? Get a life.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
And finally you revealed your Islamic replacement theology. How do you know that Torah is not authentic? because your imam said so or your quaran? what is the intent of your initial question? to say that the Jews corrupted the Torah and islam came to replace it? This is getting tiresome. Is your religion so weak that you must validate it by bashing other religions? Do you see any Jews questioning the fact the the quran was written by an illiterate psycho who had nothing to do but to copy Torah and validate it by claiming it is corrupt? Get a life.

Actually, Mohamad, supposedly got his teachings from the angel Gabriel. So, technically, the illiteracy part is not correct.
 

Servant_of_the_One1

Well-Known Member
And finally you revealed your Islamic replacement theology. How do you know that Torah is not authentic? because your imam said so or your quaran? what is the intent of your initial question? to say that the Jews corrupted the Torah and islam came to replace it? This is getting tiresome. Is your religion so weak that you must validate it by bashing other religions? Do you see any Jews questioning the fact the the quran was written by an illiterate psycho who had nothing to do but to copy Torah and validate it by claiming it is corrupt? Get a life.



Dude read Exodus! Its in third person style!


Why would Moses Pbuh talk like that in third person about himself? Lol
 
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