OK, thank you.
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Judaism and reincarnation
- Thread starter Starlight
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rosends
Well-Known Member
There is much discussion on the matter
Are thoughts of sin punished halachically?
also, see this under "lo titaveh"
https://www.yutorah.org/_cdn/_shiurim/Lo Tachmod.html
this writeup overly simplifies
Aseret HaDibrot - Orthodox Union
some interesting comments here also Thou shalt not covet - Wikipedia
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
But it is not the type of beleif that is generally meant when discussion of religions take place, at least in English. I.e. blind faith - where a person has no first hand information to prove the reality one way or another and only beleives based on whatever they think, or have been taught, is trustworthy.
Concerning (האומר), as the Rambam explained it in the Moreh Hanevuchim 1:36 there is a difference between someone who is decided in their own mind to be fixed in something that is opposite of the reality - someone who is well established in what the reality is yet they set their mind against the reality. (קובעים כדעה) That would normally not be considered beleif, at least not in the religious sense. Again, going by how most westerners address religion and beleif.
Thus, as the Rambam mentions in his commentary on the Mishnah Hullin 1:2 that the (דין) of someone like this, who starts a minut, is different than someone who grew up in it or was fooled by someone else into it. I would assume that from what he described in the Moreh that the danger is that the person who knows the reality and is fixed/set in being opposite to what the truth reality are in most cases they are going to go out and publicize their minut to convince others. There is also the issue that the Rambam also states that a rasha has a place in the world to come, depending on the level of their aveiroth.
וכן כל הרשעים שעוונותיהם מרובין--דנין אותן כפי חטאותיהם, ויש להן חלק לעולם הבא: שכל ישראל יש להן חלק לעולם הבא, אף על פי שחטאו--שנאמר "ועמך כולם צדיקים, לעולם יירשו ארץ" (ישעיהו ס,כא)א
Even in Sanehdrin 99a what is being described is not the same as for example someone who is a (תינוק הנשבה). The person who says they will sin and return is someone who knows the truth and decides to turn away from it. Someone who doesn't beleive in something personally because they only have blind faith to go off or they beleive incorrectly because they don't know any better is not the same thing, especially if they are fully committed do things that they either don't in fully or doubt because they don't know the reality. Thus, that is not the same as what is often termed as "religous beleif."
That is what I mean. I hope that I wrote that so it is clear.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
It is interesting to note that concerning the Asereth HaDibroth the Rambam mentions that it is not faith in Hashem but to know.
משנה תורה - הלכול יסודי התורה א:א
יסוד היסודות ועמוד החכמות, לידע שיש שם מצוי ראשון
יסוד היסודות ועמוד החכמות, לידע שיש שם מצוי ראשון
The concept knowing rather than faith/beleif (or at least the concept of blind faith) makes more sense to me since when Asereth HaDibroth everyone who experienced it would have know for themselves and with the sheer numbers of witnesses, and no plausable contradictions and with no repeat of that level of event, it would make sense future would also know.
Concerning the concept of thoughts, the Rambam states in Moreh HaNevuchim 1:36 it as when a person fixes/sets their thoughts a certain way. Appearing to mean that if a person has set their mind, with a clear understanding of the reality, to a certain direction that is what leads them into the type of minut that places in the category of not having a place in the world to come.
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Alea iacta est
Pretend that I wrote something cool.
I write an essay on graduate level about reincarnation in Judaism/Kabbalah. To my experience most rabbis who wrote books about reincarnation are Orthodox. I have seen maybe 1-2 rabbis who may have been Conservative. I haven't seen any Reform rabbi writing about reincarnation yet.
Tanakh doesn't mentioned reincarnation explicit but there are hints about it. I recommend books such as The Zohar, The Bahir, Sha'ar HaGilgulim etc to name a few books. I'm surprised that the Babylonian Talmud doesn't mention this at all. The closest I could find was a short mention of the Angel of Death collecting the souls of newly deceased people.
Tanakh doesn't mentioned reincarnation explicit but there are hints about it. I recommend books such as The Zohar, The Bahir, Sha'ar HaGilgulim etc to name a few books. I'm surprised that the Babylonian Talmud doesn't mention this at all. The closest I could find was a short mention of the Angel of Death collecting the souls of newly deceased people.
Would someone briefly outline the views on reincarnation held by Saadia Gaon and David Kimhi?
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Concerning Rav Saadya Gaon the following link may help. The information on the page is fairly short.
Saadia Gaon on Reincarnation, “The Book of Beliefs and Opinions”
When I get home I will check the Arabic text I have to see if there is anything to add.
Tumah
Veteran Member
If you thought that was going to make a difference, wait until you hear about the Medieval Rabbis who thought G-d had a body.
I've dealt with rabbis who like Kedem wine. I can handle it.
Thank you.
Parenthetically, I found this reference to reincarnation, Saadia Gaon, and Anan ben David interesting.
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IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I know of many Jews who believe in reincarnation. Every Orthodox Jew I have ever known. Many Conservative Jews. And even a handful of Reform Jews.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
So, do they believe Hinduism is also a true Religion from Yahweh? Because according to Hindus their religion teach reincarnation.
That depends on whether you are talking about modern Jews or ancient Jews. Ancient Jews don't have the reincarnation concept. They believe God can resend a prophet though. The difference is, common folks won't have such a privilege. Reincarnation on the other hand means everyone will have to go through the process of reincarnation, not just a prophet.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
No. It is not the same concept as what Hindus hold by. The concept as found in certain Jewish cirlcles has a different purpose behind. Also, the Torah is the basis for those who anciently held by what is called (גילגולים) "gilgulhim" in Jewish language and those who did not agree with the concept. Essentially, there are sources for and against the concept of (גילגולים) "gilgulhim" being Torah based.
Yet, again I stress that the concept (גילגולים) "gilgulhim", held by some Jews, does not hold by the same concepts that Hindus have and it not considered to happen for the reasons attributed to in Hinduism.
Ehav4Ever
Well-Known Member
Also, it is important to note that it is pretty universal in the Torah that concepts found in Hinduism are what is called Avodah Zara and thus would not be claimed to come from Hashem. In order to understand what I mean by that read the information at the following link.
Avodat Kochavim - Chapter One
Avodat Kochavim - Chapter Two
rosends
Well-Known Member
Can you provide some sources about what you claim ancient Jews believed? TIA
Yes. The Works of Flavius Josephus.
Josephus is a 1st century Jewish historian. He is also a Pharisee. He described the 3 sects back then and their respective fundamental believes. He also tried to explain the Jewish concept to the Greeks.
Here's part of his explanation,
Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, ill which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners.
In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment
The Works of Flavius Josephus.
rosends
Well-Known Member
And Josephus explains that "God can resend a prophet though. The difference is, common folks won't have such a privilege"?
Because I have yet to see a quote in actual Jewish sources that say that.
No. Re-sending of Elijah or Joshua and such can be found in the Bible which is written by the Jews using their concepts.
Do you have any source to suggest otherwise?
rosends
Well-Known Member
Are you saying that Elijah or Joshua was resent after each died? Or just that a prophet can finish one message/mission and be given a second?