Judaism and reincarnation

[Tumah]

♡♡♡♡

Are there verses in Torah, that teaches Reincarnation?

Like pretty much anything to do with the afterlife, no.

 

[shunyadragon]

Might I suggest that you re-read the article?

 

[Audie]

With all due respect. The person who started the thread didn't ask what Christians think. Their specific question was and I quote. "Do all jews believe in reincarnation? or just some?" As a Christian you are not a valid source of inforamtion for the question. Besides, as you admitted in another thread you don't read/understand Hebrew. Therefore you are not in a position to say what is or is not addressed in the Hebrew Tanakh.

You may be an expert in the Christian bible and Christian theology about the Christian bible but not in matters Jewish.

Not to derail, but its much like those never on the receiving end of racism presuming to tell
me all about it, or Christians telling me all about atheism.

Anyway good for you politely but firmly
telling such to shove off.

 

[Rival]

Not to derail, but its much like those never on the receiving end of racism presuming to tell
me all about it, or Christians telling me all about atheism.

Anyway good for you politely but firmly
telling such to shove off.

Ehav is a Jew telling people about Judaism because this question concerns Jewish belief. Christians unlearned in Judaism cannot tell you about it. Not sure why this is not making sense to you.

 

[Audie]

Ehav is a Jew telling people about Judaism because this question concerns Jewish belief. Christians unlearned in Judaism cannot tell you about it. Not sure why this is not making sense to you.

It makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Ehav is a Jew telling people about Judaism because this question concerns Jewish belief. Christians unlearned in Judaism cannot tell you about it. Not sure why this is not making sense to you.

Audie wasn't making a comment against me. She was actually agreeing with what I had posted earlier. I.e. Her comment meant the same as what your wrote. "Christians unlearned in Judaism cannot tell you about it." She was making comparisions to similar situations.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I just found something that may help out with a part of this discussion. This is the kind of way that some Jewish sources cover life, in this world and after. It is from a book called Menorath HaMeor.

Menorath HaMeor
There is a section that deals with the way the world works by using the following example.

1. A boat full of people arrives at an island and makes port. The island looks to be lush, plentiful, with water, fruit trees, and the typical stereotypical fantesy Island getaway.
2. There are 5 types of people on the boat.
   • Group 1 looks out and decides to stay on the boat. They recognize that the island looks good but they concern themselves with what will happen if things go bad on the island. They further don't want to lose the good spot they have on the boat.
   • Group 2 gets off the boat and takes part in what appears to be the benefits of the island. Yet, they become concerned that the islands benefits won't last and they immediately go back to boat. When they get back they are able to get the same spots they had before getting off the boat.
   • Group 3 gets off the boats and starts going further and further into the island. They appear to enjoy everything that is on the island and say that they will only return when the horn for the ship to leave is sounded. When the horn sounds they immediately run back to the boat but they find that they had lost their original spots and have to sit different sections.
   • Group 4 decides that they will enjoy the island and intially think they will return when the horn for the boat's departing is going to happen. Yet, when the horn blows they don't mind it and keep enjoying themselves until they realize that the boat is leaving the port and conditions of the island is starting to change for the worse. They try to rush to get back on the boat. Since the boat has already left the port they swim in the rough ocean and climb the outer hull. They are able make it to the boat but barely and they have lost their original spots and have to hold on for dear life wherever they can.
   • Group 5 decides that they like the island and that they aren't concerned with the boat. Yet, as the boat leaves the conditions of the island grow worse. The day time becomes scorching and the night time freezing cold. The fruit trees are decimated and the water turns bitter and salty. Wild animals start to attack and the storm winds start to wipe the island away.

The explaination of the story is given like this.

1. The boat represents the actions and lifestyle of the mitzvoth (commands of Hashem) given in the Torah. (613 mitzvoth for the nation of Israel and 7 mitzvoth for the non-Jewish nations/Noachide laws).
2. The 5 types of people on the boat represent the following.
   • Group 1 those who stay in the mitzvoth of Hashem and decide to not leave them. They grow up with it and don't abandon it for the interests of the world. It doesn't mean that they are not involved in daily life it means they manage every aspect of their life as doing the will of Hashem. For example, they may work for the sake of having their Torah needs taken care of, they eat in order to have strength to do the Torah, they raise a family in order to produce the next generation of those who keep Torah, etc.
   • Group 2 represents those who decide to walk away from the Torah for a short time, while they are young, but they return to the Torah while they are young.
   • Group 3 represents those who walk away from the Torah for most of their life but then they return because they realize that they are getting older and there may not be much time left in their lives.
   • Group 4 represents those who walk away from Torah and doesn't consider returning to it until they are about to die. I.e. someone finds out they have only a short time to live. Someone who is on their deathbed. etc.
   • Group 5 represents the group who won't return for anything and they go to the end w/o returning to the Torah.

Groups 1 - 4 have a place in the world to come. Yet, the reward that Hashem gives is different. Why? Those who never left the boat never left the reward that was there for them. Those who left, and returned at different stages, changed their reward (lessoned it) due to their absence. Group 5 has nothing four obvious reasons. While one can say that group 5 has a punishment you can also say that they alone were the source of the punishment and noone else, including the Source of Creation - Hashem. What exactly is that punishment? One common way of looking at is not having a place in the world to come. If you don't have a place you aren't there. Thus, no eternal lake of fire, no eternal nashing of teeth, etc. Turn off the light switch and let it not be turned on ever again. Take apart the circuit and deconstruct the house. No house, no electricity, vacant lot.

One of the basic principles found in the Torah is that Hashem created reality for the benefit of humankind. I.e. reality/universe is here to benefit man - no matter how distant in the universe it may be. Even the aspects of reality that we don't understand, even the aspects that require us to research/invesitgate/question/challenge/etc. Hashem wants humanity to benefit from the reality/universe that exists. Yet, it was given with free will. Meaning that in order for humans to have free will the drive to exist in reality correctly has to be just as strong as the drive to exist in reality incorrectly. One of the challenges we face as humans is that our choices, no matter mundane, affect others and we don't always have the full picture. Yet, Torath Mosheh posits that all humans have the ability to conquer every challenge that exists in our life. Personally, and even as a species.

At the end of the day, no human being is the judge of who is in what group, only Hashem fully knows that. We accept that Hashem gave the "instruction manual for building the foundation of life - Torah" that is the foundation it is not the whole building. Yet, what does mean for those who don't have Torah, or feel that they were not on the boat? That is what Jews like myself and others are here for. Yet, just like any other human we have to work our way through life with the foundation and every human must use a very scientific method to investigate the truth of any matter.

There is a concept that the first modern humans were given the 7 mitzvoth which most humans today have an almost already built program which people often call morality. It doesn't mean they are doing the 7 mitzvoth just means that there are parts of that just make sense to do for most humans.

Thus, when the Torah states "let us make man" one of the Torath Mosheh expressions of this is that Hashem makes every being 50%. It is up to us to develop the other 50%.

I hope this helps a bit. There are other examples I can provide later.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Another example I once heard a rabbi here in Israel give.

In this example there is kingdom that has a roud that passes in front of one of the gates. A particular time of the year a traveler is going on the road near the gate when suddenly the gate hopes a group of men come out of the gate grab the man and rush him inside. They take him into secret room remove his clothing and replace it kingly cloths. They take the traveler and put him on a throne in front of grand court and yell out:

"You are the king! You are the king! All hail the king!"

The traveler is stunned and he doesn't know what to do. He asks them what they mean and yell out that he is the king and anything the king wants it is their job to provide it for him. Still in shock the traveler sites on the throne but is afraid to do anything. Eventually he gets thirsty and asks for something to drink. They yell out to bring him something to drink. Then another yells out bring him food. They bring him all kinds of food. He is concerned about taking part in anything so he sips only a little bit. After some time he asks if he can go for a walk. They yell out the king wants to go for a walk. They bring him down from the throne and they assmple a large group of muscians to play while he walks around. There is singing and dancing everwhere as he walks around.

So, after a year of him being treated like a king and him not wanting to be the king and trying avoid being to be treated like a king, a group of officials from the kingdom take him into that same secret room and take off his kingly cloths. They put back on him the cloths he was wearing while he traveling on the road outside of the kingdom - take him to the same gate and kick in out of the kingdom.

After he lands and picks himself back up another traveler on the road asks him what happened. He explains, "You see that kingdom over there. A year ago right around this time I was walking down this road when a group people came out of the gate and made me king there. They told me I was their king and everything I wanted it was their job to serve me. They had lots of food, lots of wealth, and they had people singing everytime I went anywhere. Then after a year they took me and put me back as a I was and then kicked me out." The second traveler, stunned says. Wait where is this gate that they grabbed you from. The first traveler says right over there and he leaves.

The second traveler runs over to the gate and waits. Then the same group of people grab him, take him to the secret room, put the king cloths on, and put him on a throne in front of grand court and yell out:

"You are the king! You are the king! All hail the king!"

He sites on the throne smiles and says. So, I am the king right? They yell out, "Yes, you are the king! All hail the king!" The traveler asks them, "So, I am the king and you are here to serve me and give me whatever I want?" They yell out, "Yes, you are the king and we are here to serve you and give to you from the wealth of the kingdom!"

This traveler then states, "So, if I am the king I want to know is there an island outside of the kingdom that is nice, safe, and good to be." They answer yes and he tells them to purchase that island for him - in his name. They do it and he again asks if he is really the king. They yell out yes. He then asks does the kingdom have a treasury. They say yes and he asks them to put that treasury on the island that they purchased for him. They do it. He again asks if he is the king. They say yes. He tells them to put all the people who play instruments when he walks around on that island and they do it.

So, after a year of him being treated like a king a group of officials from the kingdom take him into that same secret room and take off his kingly cloths. They put back on him the cloths he was wearing while he traveling on the road outside of the kingdom - take him to the same gate and kick in out of the kingdom.

He picks himself up and smiles. Question, where do you think this second traveler is going next?

This is an example that is given that makes the kingdom to be life. We are brought into a world that Hashem, the Source of creation, has prepared for our good/benefit. We can choose to take part in the benefit that Hashem provided, mitzvoth, or we can choose to not do so (sometimes out of fear or other reasons). The one who is smart and knows that what is in the kingdom is for his/her benefit and that there is a limited time in the kingdom uses that knowledge to be prepared for when they are kicked out (passing away) of the kingdom (life). The smart traveler used the benefits of the kingdom to secure a place on the island (the world to come) and transferred all the benefits (actions revovlving around mtizvoth) of the kingdom (this world/life) to the island (the world to come).

The first traveler didn't consider that.

These are the kind of stories that are told in Torath Mosheh since while we are alive we can't fully speculate on the world to come. Yet, we learn from stories like this the benefit of Torah. I hope that helps.

 

[table]

It is very risky to ask what Jews "believe" in. Judaism isn't a belief-based religion, and despite the Rambam's (Maimonides) 13 principles, Jews aren't required to believe much of anything, and generally don't worry about the afterlife much. Even the term 'Orthodox' is a misnomer. I suggest Kellner's "Must a Jew Believe Anything" for anyone who wants to know more.

 

[Tumah]

It is very risky to ask what Jews "believe" in. Judaism isn't a belief-based religion, and despite the Rambam's (Maimonides) 13 principles, Jews aren't required to believe much of anything, and generally don't worry about the afterlife much. Even the term 'Orthodox' is a misnomer. I suggest Kellner's "Must a Jew Believe Anything" for anyone who wants to know more.

That's absurd. Here are two required beliefs straight out of the Mishnah - directly tied to the afterlife no less:

And these are the people who have no share in the World-to-Come: One who says: There is no resurrection of the dead derived from the Torah, and one who says: The Torah did not originate from Heaven, and an epikoros​

 

[table]

That's absurd. Here are two required beliefs straight out of the Mishnah - directly tied to the afterlife no less:

And these are the people who have no share in the World-to-Come: One who says: There is no resurrection of the dead derived from the Torah, and one who says: The Torah did not originate from Heaven, and an epikoros​

Yes, well-known. But is that binding? Is belief a Requirement? Is it Halacha?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

That's absurd. Here are two required beliefs straight out of the Mishnah - directly tied to the afterlife no less:

And these are the people who have no share in the World-to-Come: One who says: There is no resurrection of the dead derived from the Torah, and one who says: The Torah did not originate from Heaven, and an epikoros​

I think what he is getting at is that the wording of the Mishnah you are quoting doesn't state what they beleive. It states (האומר) and not (מאמין), So, if the person never makes public what they have come to beleive the question would that what they beleive is between them and Hashem but would not be known to the greater community. In Hilchoth Mamrim 3:1-3 the Rambam does use the word (מאמין) to describe a type of minut but he goes more into the result of them publicizing their ideas in order to gain a following.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

It is very risky to ask what Jews "believe" in. Judaism isn't a belief-based religion, and despite the Rambam's (Maimonides) 13 principles, Jews aren't required to believe much of anything, and generally don't worry about the afterlife much. Even the term 'Orthodox' is a misnomer. I suggest Kellner's "Must a Jew Believe Anything" for anyone who wants to know more.

Just a bit of a correction. The Rambam did not write the text that is often called the 13 principles of faith. What he wrote, in his commentary on the Mishnah of Sanhedrin 10, was that there are (עיקרי תורתינו הטוהרה ויסודותיה שלו'ש עשרה יסודות) i.e. 13 foundations or basis of the Torah.

He does though talk about beleif in terms of the resurection of the dead as being a point that woudl seperate someone from the Jewish nation if they don't beleive in it. Yet, I understand what you are getting at since what the Rambam is talking about is already a part of having a basis in Torah that starts with knowing that Hashem is the source of all creation. Also, the word (מאמין) is not "faith" in the western English sense but instead trust in something that has been established.

 

[Tumah]

Yes, well-known. But is that binding? Is belief a Requirement? Is it Halacha?

Of course it's binding. Of course belief is an halachic requirement, it's the first of the 10 commandments.

 

[Tumah]

I think what he is getting at is that the wording of the Mishnah you are quoting doesn't state what they beleive. It states (האומר) and not (מאמין), So, if the person never makes public what they have come to beleive the question would that what they beleive is between them and Hashem but would not be known to the greater community. In Hilchoth Mamrim 3:1-3 the Rambam does use the word (מאמין) to describe a type of minut but he goes more into the result of them publicizing their ideas in order to gain a following.

The Mishnah uses the word "says" as "says to himself" a way of indicating belief. For instance, "one who says, I will sin and I will return", which is talking about a person who thinks that it's ok to sin with the intent to repent, not someone who literally says those words.
This is also obvious from the context of the Talmudic passage in Sanhedrin 99a that speaks about these things.

 

[dybmh]

Of course it's binding. Of course belief is an halachic requirement, it's the first of the 10 commandments.

I didn't think we had thought crimes in Judaism.

"Thoughts are unseen and cannot be judged. No one is convicted of “thinking about stealing”. The same would be the case in a court of Jewish law."

Is There Anything Wrong with Sinful Thought?

 

[rosends]

I didn't think we had thought crimes in Judaism.

"Thoughts are unseen and cannot be judged. No one is convicted of “thinking about stealing”. The same would be the case in a court of Jewish law."

Is There Anything Wrong with Sinful Thought?

Isn't the tenth commandment all about thoughtcrime?

 

[Rival]

Isn't the tenth commandment all about thoughtcrime?

I thought it only counted if you're actively trying to gain the thing coveted.

 

[dybmh]

Isn't the tenth commandment all about thoughtcrime?

How would a person legally be deemed guilty if it remains a thought and is never witnessed?

 

[Tumah]

I didn't think we had thought crimes in Judaism.

"Thoughts are unseen and cannot be judged. No one is convicted of “thinking about stealing”. The same would be the case in a court of Jewish law."

Is There Anything Wrong with Sinful Thought?

Nothing is punishable by a Jewish court if there's no action involved. That doesn't mean that there's no effect whatsoever. In the case of heresy, it causes a person to lose their place in the World to Come.