• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Josphus: Jesus and John the Baptist

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!

Ah here is the beauty of Jesus legend and overlooked by most.

Passover was the striker for the match with 400,000 in attendance.


How could we (here) have overlooked this? This figure of 400,000 is imprinted upon my brain now!

The Hellenistic Proselytes who had worshipped judaism for hundreds of years was the tinder.

His death during passover caused the friction and fire that is still burning to this day due to the Hellenistic Proselytes that astarted the movement based on Judaism that would never fully accept them.

The Hellenistic Proselytes had been building in numbers for generations to the point they were ready to evolve away from Judaism. The fall of the temple and Judaism as a whole left a void to be filled.

Its my opinion his martyred death during passover generated his popularity and fame throughout the Roman Empire, when people went back home they all took the legend with them to all corners that attended. Jesus at Passover was known for fighting the corruption in the temple and it pleased most of the attendants. Within ten years these legends grew.

So you are saying that the upper classes were the tinder? You are going to jump the whole religion from Jesus, over the heads of the common people into the aristo-groups?


only after his death does he become popular and famous due the sheer number of people that witnessed his death and martyrdom, only after death did he become a Hellenistic deity.

Come on! How many people do you think watched his death? Before now you have said that he was detained in secret, taken away, no trial, executed, thrown in a pit for the dogs....... Now it has become a spectacular event, watched by the upper classes, who would take the message away. This is more strange than anything I have read in the Gospels.

Because the Hellenistic people made him famous after his death, by a growing oral tradaition that turned him into a deity. It was his death and reported ressurection that had finally found him fame, over that of a traveling teacher healer looking for dinner scraps to keep him and 3 or 4 apostles alive.

Now you've turned the aristo-classes into illiterates, who needed to transmit the message orally. No. The message was transmitted orally by the working people. The commoners, who already knew about Jesus, in aramaic, and some Hebrew. They called him the Messiah, not the Christ.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You recommended the book. :D Here it comes....... E P Sanders. The Historical Figure of Jesus. Page 21. L23.
.........Antipas was not excessively oppressive and did not levy exorbitant taxes.................. Galileans in Jesus' lifetime did not feel that the things most dear to them were seriously threatened: their religion, their national traditions and their livelihoods.
---------------------

Come on...... get Jesus out from underneath that frigging table, crawling around for scraps. He didn't need them. And whilst he was living, teaching, healing around Galilee he was well fed on fish and other food, and moderately safe, as long as he kept amongst his own, and the lake.

And he was gathering a following........ it was (as you wrote) evolving. This time is reported and described well enough for me to take great interest in it.


E.P.Sanders is not faultless.

And when you read the chapters on historical Jesus in the beginning he quotes exactly where the search was years ago, and who follows a poor Jesus and others a middle class Jesus.

One thing must be noted despite scholars arguing the poverty, there was no middle class within strict Judaism, only the Hellenistic Jews like those in Sepphoris had any sort of middle class.


Archeology has wealth coming out of places like Sepphoris, and sticks and rocks coming out of Jewish villages
 

outhouse

Atheistically
We don't know what made it successful.

.


Well then this blows your own hypothesis that Jesus fame while alive is what carried the movement.

We do see why other movements failed around him, so we can compare and see why this movement was succesful over others.


To imagine that Jesus was just a nobody, comparable to tons like him, is simply not at all credible. Were that the case, then either we'd have no information about Jesus at all, or we'd have lots of information about lots of people like him.

All my opinion

Here is where your arguemnent fails horribly.

We do not have much information about the real Historical Jesus.

We also have exactly what you state above, we have many parrallels of other attributed to him due to the unknown authors ignorance of the real man. We have many OT attributations, we have parrallels with Herod, with Augustus, and with Emporers divinity in general like with the term "son of god" speaking in front of large crowds like what scholars claim is the mythical "sermon on the mount" the fictional birth and the fictional miracles, and the fictional trial events. You get rid of all the OT attributes, the mythology and the fiction and we are not left with much to go on other then a Hellensitic fabrication while creating a deity based on someone they never knew. His apostles in the NT are almost silent on all but the inner circle, the 12 was more then likely OT refference, so that leaves us with 3 or 4 that folllowed him. James, Peter, John.

The NT in general only deals with the last week of his life and death, because that is all these people knew with any certainty from the cross cultural oral traditions that started after passover.

I do believe a few knew about him and his parables, but fame no. We have him according to Gmark going into small villages and having to yell "listen" "listen to me" only after his death when oral tradition was spreading did people say. oh ya, I heard that guy, he said this or I witnessed this or that, and these stories grew when they created a Hellenistic deity.


Im not claiming Jesus didnt end up famous, he was, but only in death and the mythology created afterwards.

What happens when we try to fill in to many blanks here, were creating apologetics based on Hellenistic dogma were left with.


what can be attested to my side is the amount of material that is uncontested by scholars, and this list is very very small.

A traveling teacher from Nazareth who later preached the kingdom of god, was baptized by JtB in the Jordan who had a few fishermen apostles went to the temple where he was killed for a disturbance in the temple by being placed on a cross.


You might be able to flush out a few more small details, but not many that fit outside a first century Galilean.
 
Last edited:

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
E.P.Sanders is not faultless.
Hello again!
Faultless or not, I'm finding EPS to be a very easy, very digestible read. If Crosson is a Professor/lecturer, then Sanders is a Lecturer/teacher. He can teach, which most of the scholar/lecturers will almost certainly be incapable of. (I am a qualified teacher).
I don't suppose there is one, but do you have a historian whom you consider to be more accurate than any others?

And when you read the chapters on historical Jesus in the beginning he quotes exactly where the search was years ago, and who follows a poor Jesus and others a middle class Jesus.
I don't accept a middle-class Jesus. I already know that there was a clear divide between 'comfort classes' and 'common-classes'. The only exception I have read about is the successful merchant class which rose out of the commons and could walk/talk with almost anyone.
So far I put Jesus in the working commoner-classes, speaking aramaic to his own people, healing, guiding, assisting his own.

Archeology has wealth coming out of places like Sepphoris, and sticks and rocks coming out of Jewish villages
I would not expect otherwise, apart from possibly eating/drinking vessel fragments, etc.

During Jesus's life I can only see him with his own classes, apart from visits by upper classes for healing help. That includes right through to his death. His movement grew amongst his own, by oral trad in Aramaic and some Hebrew, radiating (probably) from the Galilee district, indeed, two or three years later Saul is going to have to travel through Galilee (or travel North) to reach Damascus when he 'sees the light'. There is then a thirty-thirty five year period whilst he builds, stretching out to the gentiles, much to the dismay and upset of many of the original followers.

His face-to-face encounter with Cephas shows that. He slowly 'turns' many of the original followers, but not so much that their reports (gospels) don't show their original feelings and insights after his death. Had he been alive and with them then those gospels might have been quite different! Many argue that Matthew's gospel was written in Hebrew, but the others had probably learned Greek by that time. The Aramaic and Hebrew oral trad shows through in places, does it not?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I do believe a few knew about him and his parables, but fame no. We have him according to Gmark going into small villages and having to yell "listen" "listen to me" only after his death when oral tradition was spreading did people say. oh ya, I heard that guy, he said this or I witnessed this or that, and these stories grew when they created a Hellenistic deity.

I know that was not sent to me, but do let me try to answer.....

1. Jesus was well known around Galilee. Anybody can read that for themselves.
2. The hear-say spread throughout the district and beyond. In Aramaic!
3. At Jerusalem, Jesus's, detention, Jewish trial, interview with Pilate, lashing and death were not particularly spectacular. No Hellenistic trad started here at all..... it was all commoner-aramaic here-say as before. Not until Saul saw the opportunities that were presented by Jesus's teachings did any Greek foundation come near to getting started.
4. Although the Gospels started to be written just after Paul's death, he probably knew most of the writings already, and would have been most sad if he had known that they were going to contain part of the early truths, as well as some of his rubbish.


I don't even know why you like Paul, reducing Jesus to a nobody. I definitely put it the other way round. Paul was a contract busting deceiver, methinks.
 

Fingy

Member
I definitely put it the other way round. Paul was a contract busting deceiver, methinks.

Amen! He borrowed heavily from Judaism, using the Torah and other OT books as proof texts for his theology while utterly disparaging it and rejecting its people, damning them to hades and cutting them off from his new covenant while making his own new covenant between the Jewish God and the gentiles. And all this occurred while the Jewish people were about to be virtually exterminated by these same gentiles that Paul so eagerly proselytized to. With the help of Paul Rome destroyed Judea, the temple, millions of Jews and with the triumph of Christianity even Yahweh was appropriated by the empire. Paul lacked kindness and Christian charity. Still, he was a brilliant Greek rhetorician and word smith. With an opponent like Paul the Jamesian church never had a chance. Paul's message had near universal appeal.

Oldbadger, What makes you say that the Gospels were written just after Paul's death? I suspect that Luke's gospel may have been written as early as the 50's AD. Compare Paul's description of the Eucharist to Luke's. It is nearly a word for word reproduction. Although I could argue this in reverse. That is, Luke used 1 Corinthians as the source for his portrayal of the Eucharist. I don't know which way it goes.

1 Corinthians 23-25
...the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, ‘This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.'

Luke 22:19-20
Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.
 

AmbiguousGuy

Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 23-25
...the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, ‘This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.'

Luke 22:19-20
Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Hi, Fingy. That's the first I've heard that Paul's letter tracked language from a synoptic (but I don't know much about it all.) So your best guess is that Paul copied from Luke, rather than the other way around?

When do you think Paul died? When do you think his letters were written?

And are you implying that Luke may have predated Mark?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
do you have a historian whom you consider to be more accurate than any others?


I find value in most, even Carrier and Price have their areas of specialties.

All anyone can do is read and "understand" all the many different versions of a historical Jesus and appriciate the different flavors.

Its perfectly fine to develop your own opinion, based on one, or all. I choose "all"


Faultless or not, I'm finding EPS to be a very easy, very digestible read.

here is a great review of the book your reading.

Review of The Historical Figure of Jesus


1. Jesus was well known around Galilee. Anybody can read that for themselves.
2. The hear-say spread throughout the district and beyond. In Aramaic!
3. At Jerusalem, Jesus's, detention, Jewish trial, interview with Pilate, lashing and death were not particularly spectacular. No Hellenistic trad started here at all..... it was all commoner-aramaic here-say as before. Not until Saul saw the opportunities that were presented by Jesus's teachings did any Greek foundation come near to getting started.

Your reaching way beyond what is known here on all counts.

We know some works were translated from Aramaic, but these were probably from early written or oral sources.

The movement was popular and traveled by means of Hellenistic Gentiles and Proselytes. Not Galilean Judaism.


Although the Gospels started to be written just after Paul's death, he probably knew most of the writings already,

This is false, they didnt exist yet.

The movement evolved away from Judaism more so then within Judaism.

Theres not a clue in any of the Pauline epistles that would indicate he knew any part of what would become the synoptics or Gjohn.

You neeed to get it out of your head the message and gospels were from Jesus Apostles. They were not. They came from the movement after the movement evolved away from Judaism and after the temple fell. They were directed to Roman Proselytes, not Jewish Peasants.


During Jesus's life I can only see him with his own classes

Correct and if you understand the context of what may be guessed as being from Jesus, we see him addressing only the poor and poverty stricken.

Again, this is the Hellenistic Jewish, Roman version, not a Gaililean real Jewish version of events we are left with.

Many argue that Matthew's gospel was written in Hebrew

Not to many credible historians back that. They back just the opposite as there are no tell tale signs of translation.


The Aramaic and Hebrew oral trad shows through in places, does it not?

Not as much as you think. Koine Greek is what most of the original scripture was recorded with no translation signs. Certain authors we can see certain aspects from earlier traditions inclusing both Hebrew and Aramaic, but only in small places and sentences. Not whole books
 

outhouse

Atheistically
1. Jesus was well known around Galilee


Not true.



How come when he goes back into Nazareth, his own hometown he grows up in, that was very very small. Does a person have to ask him who he is???????????????

Matthew 13:55

"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?


Not to sure if its him or not. heck he may have only been taveling around Galilean villages for a year, and they already forgot him.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well then this blows your own hypothesis that Jesus fame while alive is what carried the movement.

That isn't my hypothesis. Because there is a difference between a necessary condition and a sufficient condition. In other words, just because it's impossible to explain the success without a Jesus who is well-known doesn't mean that this is all that it takes.

Socrates was very influential, but nobody deified him.

We do see why other movements failed around him, so we can compare and see why this movement was succesful over others.

We can't. Because a central reason for the failure of the other movements was the death of the leader. And that happened here, yet the movement became a religion.

Here is where your arguemnent fails horribly.

We do not have much information about the real Historical Jesus.

We have a great deal of information. The fact that there is a continual debate which will likely never end and certainly never be conclusive isn't just about a lack of information. In fact, for a lot of figures from ancient history we have far less information and there is no debate. The reason people have been arguing over who the "real" Jesus was and who the "real" Socrates was for a couple of centuries or so isn't because of the lack of information or even just because they continue to inspire interest. It's because in both cases, people are not satisfied with the minimal "here's what everyone agrees on" account. People want to know how much of the "real" Socrates is in Plato's work compared to Xenophon's. People (even non-Christians) want to know if Jesus actually believed himself to be the (or a) messiah.

People want to know a lot of things about Jesus (and Socrates) which we have information about, but most of the time we only have questionable evidence for those things. That doesn't mean there is nothing about which we can't be definitive.


We also have exactly what you state above, we have many parrallels of other attributed to him due to the unknown authors ignorance of the real man.
I didn't state that. I said that the historical Jesus himself has parallels.

We have many OT attributations, we have parrallels with Herod, with Augustus, and with Emporers divinity in general like with the term "son of god" speaking in front of large crowds like what scholars claim is the mythical "sermon on the mount" the fictional birth and the fictional miracles, and the fictional trial events.

1) A lot of the OT attributions help determine historicity from fiction because a lot of them are clearly strained.
2) In certain cases, a lot of the OT parallels were because Jesus was Jewish
3) Jesus really did do things which people thought at the time were miraculous. He really did perform exorcisms and really did do things like "heal" people, and the fact that these things were not actually magic or miracles doesn't mean they didn't happen. There are faith healers alive today whom people believe miraculously heal. Exorcisms have been performed before Jesus was born and up to the modern day, all by historical people.
4) Using the Roman empire as a model for the divine attribution is problematic in a number of ways.
5) The gospel authors, much like Plutarch, Philostratus, Diogenes Laertius, and others, were writing a particular kind of history. For example, a lot of the parables in the gospels were probably repeated over and over again by Jesus. However, the kind of historical literature the gospel authors wrote doesn't pay much attention to chronology or the sequence of events as they happened in the same way other historical literature of the time did. Much of the gospel material is based on history, but the context in which it appears in the gospel is not historical.

You get rid of all the OT attributes, the mythology and the fiction and we are not left with much to go on other then a Hellensitic fabrication while creating a deity based on someone they never knew.

You are confusing fiction with historical events which were interpreted as miraculous. Again, just because there is a story about Jesus doing something which is imposssible, like magically healing someone, doesn't mean that he didn't actually that kind of thing all the time. It only means that people who were watching thought he did. It still happens to this day.

If we decide that there is no good way to seperate which teachings come from Jesus, or which (if any) miracle stories come from actual events, we are still left with a Jesus who both taught and went around doing things people thought were miraculous.

There is a very large and important distinction between saying "we can't know if any of the miracle stories reported in any of the gospels relate back to a historical event" and saying "Jesus never went around doing things which people around him interpreted as casting out demons and magically healing the sick/lame/etc.".

Even if not a single event in the gospels of Jesus doing something miraculous actually corresponds to a historical event, it is quite clear that part of his reputation while he was still alive was doing this.

We have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of documents from Europe during the so-called "witch hunt" period and later. Many of these documents are legal records. They talk about witches who performed magic, they talk about "wise ones" who healed and lifted curses, they describe in detail things like fornication with satan. Every one of these descriptions is, in my opinion, obviously not accurate. But they are descriptions of real, historical people. And often enough, they describe real, historical events. It's just people seeing things and explaining them as magic, witchcraft, miracles, etc., when something else is the real explanation. The same is true of Jesus.

His apostles in the NT are almost silent on all but the inner circle, the 12 was more then likely OT refference, so that leaves us with 3 or 4 that folllowed him. James, Peter, John.
His apostles weren't "silent", anymore than John the Baptist's followers were "silent". In fact, less so. Because even outside of the NT, we have records of his disciples imparting information to others. Papias, for example, says:
"εἰ δέ που καὶ παρηκολουθηκώς τις τοῖς πρεσβυτέροις ἔλθοι, τοὺς τῶν πρεσβυτέρων ἀνέκρινον λόγους, τί Ἀνδρέας ἢ τί Πέτρος εἶπεν ἢ τί Φίλιππος ἢ τί Θωμᾶς ἢ Ἰάκωβος ἢ τί Ἰωάννης ἢ Ματθαῖος ἤ τις ἕτερος τῶν τοῦ κυρίου μαθητῶν ἅ τε Ἀριστίων καὶ ὁ πρεσβύτερος Ἰωάννης, τοῦ κυρίου μαθηταὶ, λέγουσιν/indeed if it should happen that someone follower of the elders came along, I would press them for details about the reports the elders were saying, whether said by Andrew or Peter or Philip or Thomas or James or John or Matthew or any other of the Lord's disciples."

Papias also echoes what so many others do (in the next line, actually) which gives us a good idea why so few people wrote things down. People trusted oral reports and were suspicious of what was set in writing, because you can't question a book for further details. Even historians and the highly literate tell us that writing isn't to be valued as much as oral reports.
 
Last edited:

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
How come when he goes back into Nazareth, his own hometown he grows up in, that was very very small. Does a person have to ask him who he is???????????????

Because it's a rhetorical question. When you ask who someone is because you aren't sure, you say something like "who is this?" You don't list the guy's family members by name.
Not to sure if its him or not.
They know exactly who he is, which is why they are described (13:57) as ἐσκανδαλίζοντο and why they describe his family. The point of the story (whether it is historical or not) is quite clear: they were offended that someone they'd known so well was now going around with such wisdom (sophia) and magical/miraculous things (ai dunameis). It's not that they don't know who he is, but that they refused to believe someone they'd knew so well his whole life was now doing what he was.

The NT in general only deals with the last week of his life and death

This is not at all true, although it is understandable that one would get that impression.

Historiography (the writing of history; i.e., historical literature) in the classical & hellenistic world can be roughly divided into two types. One is a type of historical narrative of some event (or events), often a war. This is what Thucydides wrote, what Livy wrote, and many others.

The other rough "type" is biographical. It is distinguished from the other type mainly by the focus on a person (obviously), but also the way that the narrative actually corresponds to a real time line.

When historians wrote about wars or the history of a people/culture (e.g., the way Liy did with Rome or Josephus with the Jewish people), the narrative is supposed to match up with the actual chronology as much as possible. That is, events described by the historians take place in a sequence which corresponds to the sequence in which they actually happened.

When biographers wrote about people, this was far less important and quite frequently almost completely ignored except when it couldn't be. The authors of the synoptics play around with the order of their material to suit their needs even though the reason for the name is how closely the three line up. Two gospels have no birth narrative. But all four gospels have the passion narrative near the end and this is also the one place in John where we see much similarity in terms of chronology with the synoptics. There are still differences, of course, but compared to the rest of John here much more is the same.

The reason it seems like the gospels only cover a week is because of the type of literature they are: biographical. The focus on the person (and this is true of biographical literature both before and after the gospels) is what matters, and so in general it doesn't matter whether a particular event described after another in the text actually happened first.

In fact, especially when the focus is on a person who taught and performed "wondrous deeds", the actual context (in terms of setting) given for some deed or saying or parable isn't just inaccurate, but completely made up. For one thing, this is because who instructed others repeated the same things over and over again. That's how teaching in an oral culture works, even today.

So, for example, in Matthew Jesus is treated with scorn in his own village right after he has just told a bunch of parables. Not only is the chronology here wrong, but it could not even in principle be correct, because whatever parables go back to the historical Jesus in some form were repeated over and over again in many different contexts.

One of the reasons it seems as if Jesus was only active for a week in the gospels is because so much of what they contain happened over and over again in many different contexts, but only one of these is described and the context often just made up.

I do believe a few knew about him and his parables, but fame no. We have him according to Gmark going into small villages and having to yell "listen" "listen to me" only after his death when oral tradition was spreading did people say. oh ya, I heard that guy, he said this or I witnessed this or that, and these stories grew when they created a Hellenistic deity.

The oral tradition started while Jesus was still alive. It continued after the gospels were written. The way the gospels present this oral tradition is typical of biography: the setting is for the most part a literary device. A large portion of the oral tradition was Jesus' teachings, which were repeated again and again, some in perhaps a very fixed form, others perhaps not so much. And as for the miracles, the actual contexts can't be repeated because these are events, so it is quite possible that the original context all the miracles were lost from almost the start. What the gospel authors did was take what was almost entirely a bunch of disjoint material about Jesus, probably often without any setting (i.e., a saying of Jesus without any mention of a single time or place he said it), and weave these into a biographical narrative.

Im not claiming Jesus didnt end up famous, he was, but only in death and the mythology created afterwards.

You've taken the depiction in the gospels, which is in a form that is not designed to give either a realistic chronology for the most part or even a realistic setting for much of what is reported, and used this to infer things about Jesus' activities. In other words, you're concentrating on the single most ahistorical part of the gospels to construct your interpretation of how well Jesus was known.

The problem doesn't end there, however. Because having read into the chronological and geographical context of the gospels' narratives, you have a guy whom nobody really knows being executed, which means we have to disregard just about everything about that execution, because there is no good reason for a nobody to gain the attention of first the Jewish elite and than the Roman elite rather than just be killed.

Finally, now that this nobody is dead and we're left with just a handful of followers, for some reason these followers start increasing. The single thing most responsible for ending groups which followed guys like John the Baptist or others mentioned in Josephus is they end up killed or executed, and being dead they have no more followers. Here, however, someone whom nobody knew about just died, but what happens with the thousands of other dead nobodies, and even with the influential, well-known leaders of factions, sects, movements, etc., doesn't happen. Just the opposite happens.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Oldbadger, What makes you say that the Gospels were written just after Paul's death? I suspect that Luke's gospel may have been written as early as the 50's AD. Compare Paul's description of the Eucharist to Luke's. It is nearly a word for word reproduction. Although I could argue this in reverse. That is, Luke used 1 Corinthians as the source for his portrayal of the Eucharist. I don't know which way it goes.

1 Corinthians 23-25
...the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, ‘This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, ‘This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.'

Luke 22:19-20
Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Hi.....! Cool! This pleases me, whichever way round! If Luke wrote first, then the historians are debunked! If Paul wrote first, it (easily) shows that Paul influenced Luke's gospel.

Paul influenced them all, imo. Every single clump of hellenist junk can be blamed on Paul or his movements. The real Jesus was nothing to do with any of that, imo.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I find value in most, even Carrier and Price have their areas of specialties.
All anyone can do is read and "understand" all the many different versions of a historical Jesus and appriciate the different flavors.
Its perfectly fine to develop your own opinion, based on one, or all. I choose "all"
I will do this as well........


Your reaching way beyond what is known here on all counts.
We know some works were translated from Aramaic, but these were probably from early written or oral sources.
The movement was popular and traveled by means of Hellenistic Gentiles and Proselytes. Not Galilean Judaism.
The gospels have 'report value'. I reach with them.
All the early sources were aramaic oral. No probs.
The Gentiles stuff came in with Paul..... no other way. He opened opened up a cloned faith, just for them. Your Emporic divinity, coin..... oh, the whole pile of junk..... came from Paul, over thirty five years. And the gospels were heavily influenced by him, in his lifetime. The fact that they got written (soon) after his death does not change this at all. Look at 'Fingy's' post about Luke.... back a page. Wow!

This is false, they didnt exist yet.
The movement evolved away from Judaism more so then within Judaism.
Theres not a clue in any of the Pauline epistles that would indicate he knew any part of what would become the synoptics or Gjohn.
Evolved away from Judaism......... of course it did...... after Jesus' death, and once Paul had started to play with it. What has that to do with Jesus's life? Nothing!

You neeed to get it out of your head the message and gospels were from Jesus Apostles. They were not. They came from the movement after the movement evolved away from Judaism and after the temple fell. They were directed to Roman Proselytes, not Jewish Peasants.
No.....the movement would have eradicated all of the early teachings because they conflicted with Paul's idea of a church. Paul had no end of trouble with the disciples and apostles, having to face them down on occasions. Anything Hellinistic is Pauline!

Correct and if you understand the context of what may be guessed as being from Jesus, we see him addressing only the poor and poverty stricken.
Great! His message and guidance for his people....... many of whom were quite comfortable! Please get this poor-poverty thing gone. It is not important. All the rest is Pauline and not to do with Jesus's life.



Not to many credible historians back that. They back just the opposite as there are no tell tale signs of translation.
Not as much as you think. Koine Greek is what most of the original scripture was recorded with no translation signs. Certain authors we can see certain aspects from earlier traditions inclusing both Hebrew and Aramaic, but only in small places and sentences. Not whole books
All the translation happened as the oral aramaic was reported in writing....... in greek....... all long (35yrs+) after Jesus's death. Even so, the old aramaic oral tradition survived to peek through. That is what we seek, is it not? The Pauline rubbish can be saved, and used in a biography about Paul's life.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
You've taken the depiction in the gospels, which is in a form that is not designed to give either a realistic chronology for the most part or even a realistic setting for much of what is reported, and used this to infer things about Jesus' activities. In other words, you're concentrating on the single most ahistorical part of the gospels to construct your interpretation of how well Jesus was known.

The problem doesn't end there, however. Because having read into the chronological and geographical context of the gospels' narratives, you have a guy whom nobody really knows being executed, which means we have to disregard just about everything about that execution, because there is no good reason for a nobody to gain the attention of first the Jewish elite and than the Roman elite rather than just be killed.


.

Isnt it factual Jesus was deified by Gentiles and Hellensitic Proselytes, he found fame after death by another culture completely outside his own.

He did not find fame in that of a traveling Jewish peasant healing and teaching for dinner scraps. When Jesus died, the movement had failed in Judaism as he had become a failed messiah.

Had it not been for his Hellenistic success from another culture, he would not have been known for more then a brief blip in history.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Legion, you do know im parroting well known famous scholars, do you not?
I know you are parroting a very small number of scholars and I'm not sure how familiar you are they have actually written. I know, for example, that you are aware of ideas present in Crossan's works. I do not know which ones you have read. Same with Ehrman and Mack.

What I do know is that just about every name you have ever mentioned of a person who has produced work about the historical Jesus is someone who has written material for the general public. This means first that you are reading works which leave out a great deal, because a great amount of the literature focuses on technical aspects and/or concerns a level of detail that is too great (for example, 300 pages on the use of Greek spatial terms in Mark or several hundred pages on the idea of a library in the ancient world).

Second (and more importantly) it means that you are getting an extremely biased (I mean that in the statistical sense, not the ideological sense) sample of views. Because most of the work on the historical Jesus doesn't mention his name (because it is on the development of the synagogue or a survey of inscriptions or forms of address in greek papyri or any number of other things which inform us about the region, culture, language, etc., of Jesus), and of those that do, most are not intended for the general audience.

A very small sample of people who have contributed to even the last few decades of historical Jesus research have ever written anything you'd find in a bookstore.

In fact, the type of work that you would find in a bookstore tends to fall into two categories, both of them extreme. Guys like Mack, Crossan, Ehrman, Carrier, etc., are on one side, while those like N. T. Wright, Luke Timothy Johnson, Ben Witherington III, etc,. are on the other.

Also important is that all of the topics you touch on are not covered in much (if any) detail in these works. There are a number of volumes and books as long as Crossan's book on the historical Jesus (the long one), but are completely devoted to oral tradition/transmission. Same with other major topics.
 
Last edited:

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Not true.

How come when he goes back into Nazareth, his own hometown he grows up in, that was very very small. Does a person have to ask him who he is???????????????

Matthew 13:55
"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?

Not to sure if its him or not. heck he may have only been taveling around Galilean villages for a year, and they already forgot him.

It is true, as reported and shown in the Gospels. Today, in my hometown, an old acquaintance called out my name, and 'is that you?' Your mindset is affecting your findings, in my honest opinion. 'Isn't this the carpenter's son?.'....... he had been away! He did not teach around his home town much..... which was a good idea as it turned out!!!

You are only interested in a week of Jesus's life...... this has been shown in other posts on other threads. I don't know why, but the evidence is there that Jesus was strong in Galilee. His friends were fishermen,and a (fisheries?) publican, together with others.

His movement was small, amongst his own, compared with the Pauline, romanised, greek junk that accelerated some years after his death. I don't care about Paul...... Jesus had died before Paul...... Paul's letters have some value because they separate him from the true Jesus, and show us a little about the old school and its difficulties with Paul.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I know you are parroting a very small number of scholars and I'm not sure how familiar you are they have actually written. I know, for example, that you are aware of ideas present in Crossan's works. I do not know which ones you have read. Same with Ehrman and Mack.

What I do know is that just about every name you have ever mentioned of a person who has produced work about the historical Jesus is someone who has written material for the general public. This means first that you are reading works which leave out a great deal, because a great amount of the literature focuses on technical aspects and/or concerns a level of detail that is too great (for example, 300 pages on the use of Greek spatial terms in Mark or several hundred pages on the idea of a library in the ancient world).

Second (and more importantly) it means that you are getting an extremely biased (I mean that in the statistical sense, not the ideological sense) sample of views. Because most of the work on the historical Jesus doesn't mention his name (because it is on the development of the synagogue or a survey of inscriptions or forms of address in greek papyri or any number of other things which inform us about the region, culture, language, etc., of Jesus), and of those that do, most are not intended for the general audience.

A very small sample of people who have contributed to even the last few decades of historical Jesus research have ever written anything you'd find in a bookstore.

In fact, the type of work that you would find in a bookstore tends to fall into two categories, both of them extreme. Guys like Mack, Crossan, Ehrman, Carrier, etc., are on one side, while those like N. T. Wright, Luke Timothy Johnson, Ben Witherington III, etc,. are on the other.

Also important is that all of the topics you touch on are not covered in much (if any) detail in these works. There are a number of volumes and books as long as Crossan's book on the historical Jesus (the long one), but are completely devoted to oral tradition/transmission. Same with other major topics.


Most of who im dealing with in this case is the late Marvin Meyers, Candida Moss, and yes Crossan, Borg but also Johnathon Reed is a large contributor to the modern search using cultural anthropology.

Lets get some details out because i do think you make a great case against my view, yet you havnt made a good enough one to change my open mind.


Historical Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jonathan Reed states that chief contribution of archaeology to the study of the historical Jesus is the reconstruction of his social world

James Charlesworth states that few modern scholars now want to overlook the archaeological discoveries that clarify the nature of life in Galilee and Judea during the time of Jesus.[49]

However, recent archeological evidence show that unlike earlier assumptions, Capernaum was poor and small, without even a forum or agora.[50][56] This archaeological discovery thus resonates well with the scholarly view that Jesus advocated reciprocal sharing among the destitute in that area of Galilee.[50]


Bart Ehrman and separately Andreas Köstenberger contend that given the scarcity of historical sources, it is generally difficult for any scholar to construct a portrait of Jesus that can be considered historically valid beyond the basic elements of his life
 

outhouse

Atheistically
It is true, as reported and shown in the Gospels. Today, in my hometown, an old acquaintance called out my name, and 'is that you?' Your mindset is affecting your findings, in my honest opinion. 'Isn't this the carpenter's son?.'....... he had been away! He did not teach around his home town much..... which was a good idea as it turned out!!!

You are only interested in a week of Jesus's life...... this has been shown in other posts on other threads. I don't know why, but the evidence is there that Jesus was strong in Galilee. His friends were fishermen,and a (fisheries?) publican, together with others.

His movement was small, amongst his own, compared with the Pauline, romanised, greek junk that accelerated some years after his death. I don't care about Paul...... Jesus had died before Paul...... Paul's letters have some value because they separate him from the true Jesus, and show us a little about the old school and its difficulties with Paul.


My whole point about that passage in Gmatthew is just that it WAS NOT like this below.

Hey everyone! come see its Yehoshua coming home after all his fame and fortune! He is here to teach us and bestoy us with his grace, oh how lucky we are!

Instead they wanted to run him off a cliff and kill him.

He wasnt treated like a well known person.



One thing you will find in that Jesus and his disciples targets are sort of the low life outsiders, the poverty stricken sick and destitute. He wasnt a hit with everyone, if we look at his range of movement in the NT, he didnt get very far. Galilee was about it.
 

Fingy

Member
Hi, Fingy. That's the first I've heard that Paul's letter tracked language from a synoptic (but I don't know much about it all.) So your best guess is that Paul copied from Luke, rather than the other way around?

When do you think Paul died? When do you think his letters were written?

And are you implying that Luke may have predated Mark?

Hi Ambiguous Guy, I think there may be a couple other examples of Paul's knowledge of the gospels contained in his letters but I would have to read through my notes to find them. As I said in my post above I'am not sure if Paul was quoting Luke or Luke was quoting Paul. I can't remember where I read this but I recall that Paul referred to Luke as "his gospel". Not that Paul wrote it, but that it followed his school of thought. It is my view that "Luke" was Lucius of Cyrene that we find in Acts 13:1. He was among the "prophets and teachers" of Paul's church in Antioch so we know that Paul knew him personally. Paul was also with a Lucius when he wrote the letter to the Romans (Romans 16:21). We also know that the person who wrote the gospel of Luke also wrote acts. So Lucius of Cyrene may have written both of these works, and since he knew Paul personally and traveled with him as Romans demonstrates that may explain the "we document" of Acts chapter 16. The narrator changes to the term "we" when describing events (Paul's journeys) so that portion may be derived from a sort of travel diary. Was it Lucius' travel diary? Perhaps, perhaps not. I am just speculating.

As for Paul's death, according to the church fathers and historians Paul was executed by beheading in Rome in 68 AD, the same year that Nero committed suicide. As far as Paul's letters go, scholars generally agree that they were written from 50-65 AD. I really cant say if Luke predates Mark. I know that scholars believe Mark to be earliest gospel. I believe Matthew could also be the first gospel. I know that the church fathers regarded Matthew to be the earliest gospel, hence it's position in the NT.
 
Top