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Josphus: Jesus and John the Baptist

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have explained hysterical blindness, strokes, convulsions and more, and have wondered why nobody has researched this through contact with the very few psychologists and psychiatrists who might know anything about it.
My research position was (until recently; I had to move) in a neuropsychology lab, and cognitive neuropsychology is my actual "field", so to speak.



I am bloody stunned! What Sanders could not have known is that a full hysteric convulsion has four stages
He could have known that, were he familiar with 19th medical science.

Fashion and cult in neuroscience—the case of hysteria (from Brain vol. 130(12)).

You can also find the article "Nineteenth-Century Hysteria and Hypnosis: A Historical Note on Blanche Wittmann" within this journal.


Hysteria in the literature today is used to describe a wide range disorders and is often defined (to the extent the term is used at all) as "the presentation of medical symptoms without evidence of tissue pathology" (see Dissociation in Hysteria and Hypnosis: Evidence from Cognitive Neuroscience).

The literature on epilepsy often references hysteria (either directly or using more modern terms), as not only does epilepsy present challenged when it comes to the varieties of symptom manification, etiology, neuropathology, etc., it is easily misdiagnosed. An entire volume came out recently on anosognosia which had a chapter devoted to "hysteria", but I find it rather useless to try to relate one ill-defined "disorder" with another.

Anosognosia, convulsions, etc., are all very real things. They can have many causes. But your description is one from the state of neuroscience 200 years ago. There are no stages for hysteria, because there is no "thing" called hysteria.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
My research position was (until recently; I had to move) in a neuropsychology lab, and cognitive neuropsychology is my actual "field", so to speak.

He could have known that, were he familiar with 19th medical science.

You can also find the article "Nineteenth-Century Hysteria and Hypnosis: A Historical Note on Blanche Wittmann"


Hysteria in the literature today is used to describe a wide range disorders and is often defined (to the extent the term is used at all) as "the presentation of medical symptoms without evidence of tissue pathology" (see Dissociation

The literature on epilepsy often references hysteria (either directly or using more modern terms), as not only does epilepsy present challenged when it comes to the varieties of symptom manification, etiology, neuropathology, etc., it is easily misdiagnosed. An entire volume came out recently on anosognosia which had a chapter devoted to "hysteria", but I find it rather useless to try to relate one ill-defined "disorder" with another.

Anosognosia, convulsions, etc., are all very real things. They can have many causes. But your description is one from the state of neuroscience 200 years ago. There are no stages for hysteria, because there is no "thing" called hysteria.

I was so happy to see your post! You mentioned your (this) medical background some weeks ago, can't remember which thread, and I responded immediately.

Not you, of course, but human nature reaches to correct more quickly than it tends to lift. I waited for your post, above.

I linked in to two of your threads, and the first sentences my eyes focused upon were these:-

but the trajectory of neuroscience of course is far less perfect.

These theories (and treatments) dominated the subject in their times and had great cultural importance; yet they are notable today for their almost complete invisibility.

Many exemplify discoveries, initially well-evidenced, which were then subjected to hyperbole and exaggeration and amplified to the level of nonsense and non-science,

‘hysteria’, now typically diagnosed as ‘conversion
disorder’ or ‘dissociative (conversion) disorder’, and the temporary effects of hypnosis. While this idea has been largely ignored.....

Freud searched far and wide, and filmed his more acute patients, but these, although bad, were mild, compared with my own observations.

200 years they knew little, and even 40 years ago psychiatry was helpless. Indeed, a special clinic was opened for psychiatric research and observation into cases just like these. God bless them, they could only watch and wonder. I won't name the clinic, but if you do I will confirm or challenge its name.

The reason why the condition hysteria has been elimnated is because (IMO) very fat, well paid people cannot do anything about it, and so they made it go away. They would refute this by saying that to separate its various manifestations and treat individually is more..... medical?..... scientific? Yeah...... cop out!
There is another in Caucasian medicine....... folks don't like hysteria because it tends to polarise to caucasian females. In Latin lands this is not so.

The only psychiatrist who actually 'clicked' upon a treatment broke many doctor's rulesand was imprisoned circa 2001ish for several years. I won't name him, but would confirm or challenge if you did.

No....... pschos don't talk about hysteria as it can actually manifest itself. Sanders did very wellto clutch enough to write that entry about it, but afterwards (I didn't include this) he mentioned disbelief about some aspects of it. I am excited that he even had the guts to include it.

Blindness can be supported...... I already mentioned the US para-trooper in the BandofBrothers story about Bastoigne.

Strokes can be supported. (I have cured a serious 'stroke' in about ten seconds!)

Other paralysis can be supported. (Yep.... I've seen loads of paralysis incidents).

Convulsions can be supported. (Seen thousands of differing kinds)

Dumbness, Deafness, Death (Perfect feint) Yes...... seen em.

In fact, I'll stick my neck out and tell you I've seen most of the above, over a 20 year period (1972-1991). If I wrote about my observations neither you, nor Sanders would be able to easily accept my story. This why I am so excited that Sanders had the guts to 'nudge'in that direction. If he knew what I do he would have written a chapter.

I've only seen three instant cures in twenty years.
A woman entering the first stage of a H-convulsion, a doctor slapped her hard and said, 'Don't you dare do that to me!' And she stopped..... came out.
I entered a room to see a 'stroke patient', already on the trolley-bed, with parameds and a doctor present, with auxilary nurses, all looking very serious. I spoke to the patient and she sat up, smiled at me, jumped up, skipped towards me and danced around the room. You should have seen the poor medis'faces.
A psychiatrist walked up to a paralysed patient, and snapped his fingers, and the patient jumped upand asked if it was dinner-time.

Now, these are real situations, and if Jesus had had an amazing assertive charisma then he could well have been the one person who could identify and 'save' these cases.

In my post to you I think I asked you whether the incidence of male-hysteria in Eastern Mediterranean lands was similar to Male-hysteria in Latin lands. I'm sure that I do not have to tell you that Northern European males tend to suffer less than N.E. females. I am looking for a gender balance in hysteria incidence.

Maybe this is why you did not answer? I doubt that anybody knows. But if the balance is there, then 50% + of Jesus' miracles were 100% stunningly, amazingly, 'miraculous'. Hyperbole and OT referenc could do the rest.

So........ do you want to help me...... or not?
I have not read them all, but I bet Sanders is one of the best, and bravest.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Hi.....! OK......


I can't wait......! I've just been reading the most brilliant paragraphs that I have read since I began to study 'historic Jesus'.

Before now, I have written an introduction about hysteria and how the right charisma or 'X-factor' can have such remarkable affect upon a sufferer. I have explained hysterical blindness, strokes, convulsions and more, and have wondered why nobody has researched this through contact with the very few psychologists and psychiatrists who might know anything about it.
This just all clicked into place. Sanders has found it, but obviously never met with anybody who knew enough about it to really impact it onto his conscious. I am one of the few people who have had contact, through very close acqaintance with a sufferer of hysteria over two decades.
But he got far enough. Read this. E P Sanders. THe Historical Figure of Jesus. Page 158, reference explanations for Jesus's healing.:-
More or less all the healings are explicable as psychosomatic cures or victories of mind over matter. Instances of illness that are 'hysterical' or psychomsomatic are well known and documented. This explanation, if applied to miracles in the gospels, covers exorcism and the healing of the blind, the deaf and dumb, the paralysed,and possibly the woman with a haemorrhage.
Some have attempted to extend this explanation to the story of the Gerasene 'demoniac', that is, he brought him back to his right mind. The man went into convulsions, whch alarmed and panicked the swine, who charged over the cliff.

I am bloody stunned! What Sanders could not have known is that a full hysteric convulsion has four stages, and the second stage is usually accompanied by a high pitched whining scream which just terrifies everybody nearby, soon followed by physical convulsion which can wipe out (say) a room. The ultra-sound whine could possible panic a heard of swine.


Much of what and how and who he healed, is a mystery. I'm not even sure how many of these healing accounts would count for, what he had actually done.

I just go with the territory that Jewish traveling teachers were also healers because their health was better then the very hungry sick people.

I'm sure it wasn't all demon chasing, and quick healings. There were herbs and other practices in use to heal.


There was no doctor for many of the poor Jews, nor health care, this is where Jesus shined. He figured out how to travel and heal as a means of survival over working hard labor. Anyone this smart would also teach, giving him the freedom to speak his mind about religion and politics which for Jews were in a very bad state..
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Much of what and how and who he healed, is a mystery. I'm not even sure how many of these healing accounts would count for, what he had actually done.

I just go with the territory that Jewish traveling teachers were also healers because their health was better then the very hungry sick people.

I'm sure it wasn't all demon chasing, and quick healings. There were herbs and other practices in use to heal.


There was no doctor for many of the poor Jews, nor health care, this is where Jesus shined. He figured out how to travel and heal as a means of survival over working hard labor. Anyone this smart would also teach, giving him the freedom to speak his mind about religion and politics which for Jews were in a very bad state..

I accept all of your above post....... no probs!

So, you've got:
herbal remedies
Auto-suggestion
Placebo
Hypno-suggestion (slightly stronger than A-O
Faith healing (Different to A-O)
Chiropractice
Massage
Charisma stunning

+ Hyperbole and OT 'adjustment'.

I have already written about the amazing Harry Edwards from Leatherhead, who died in 1976.

The fact is, Sanders approached a subject that (I bet) few others have even considered. It is for each one of us to decide what we can accept as historical...... you once wrote that you pick from the available proposals.

For me, Jesus's healing has been 'sorted', a major aspect of 'the historical Jesus'. Obviously I feel that this is a significant step forward ..........

You recommended this historian........... your fault! :D

(thankyou) :)
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You mentioned your (this) medical background some weeks ago

I don't have a medical background. Broadly speaking, one can divide brain research into two categories: medical/clinical research and research in the cognitive sciences. In the former one finds neurologists, medical doctors (i.e., people with an MD rather than a Ph.D.), etc. In the later, one finds neuropsychologists and other neuroscientists.

Psychiatrists already defined mental illness as a disease in the 80s for a variety of reasons (a central one being that their territory was being threatened by other therapists who said that as psychiatry wasn't medicine, psychiatrists shouldn't have pride of place). As a result, psychiatrist adopted a biomedical model of mental disorders and defined all mental disorders as diseases. The problem, however, was that they had no idea what caused any of these (etiology). So they classified them based upon symptoms alone. They still do this, and they still have no basis for claiming that the "diseases" they identify actually have some underlying pathology.

Ironically, "hysteria" is defined in terms of a lack of underlying pathology, but as it is a diagnosis rooted in sexism, symptoms once labled as evidence of hysteria have been re-classified.


and even 40 years ago psychiatry was helpless.
Even within psychiatry, a great deal of research has gone into cases where patients manifest symptoms of "hysteria". The difference between the medical framework and that adopted by the neurosciences is that the former has already decided the nature of mental illness and is now looking for evidence to support it (and treat it), while the latter (people who work in labs like mine) seek to understand how the brain works- period. When speech disorders, hysterical blindness, proposagnosia, etc., are studied in the cognitive and neurosciences the idea is to study the relationship between neural activity, various theoretical frameworks (e.g., embodied cognition), and the manifestation of symptoms. Some of the most fruitful work in cognitive science comes from case studies like Phineas Gage, HM, Clive Wearing, etc. Because neuropsychologists and other cognitive scientists want to understand how the sensorimotor system, memory, consciousness, etc., all work (and how they work together), the cases which medical science can't do much with in terms of cure are often extremely helpful for neuropsychologists.

Acupucture, psychedelic states, hypnosis, etc., are all studied in neuroscience much more than in medicine because the focus is so much broader.



There is another in Caucasian medicine....... folks don't like hysteria because it tends to polarise to caucasian females. In Latin lands this is not so.

In a recent study on hysteria, professor Gorbach (Universidad Autónoma Metropolitana-Xochimilco), wrote about hysteria and "Latin lands", noting first that "the Mexican corpus on hysteria is made up of a few graduate theses and the occasional clinical studies" and second (as far as treatment of females goes), noting examples such as "F. Altamira, who, after trying different remedies, decided to “appropriate” the “woman’s unhealthy will” and work on her behavior and José de Jesús González, who taught women to control their emotions through suggestion. Meanwhile, Aragón tried to cure them by issuing strict orders."

Both Europe and their Mexican imitators abandoned the "it's the uterus" theory of the 19th century. Mexico turned to hypnosis "in which the doctor functions as the model while the patient mimics her relationship with him". The US had a similar model for what was then called multiple personality disorder (MPD) in the 80s and which is often called the "recovered memory movement". Therapists would "recover" instances of sexual abuse in order to help their patients, and part of this involved asking to speak to alternate personalities. All of a sudden, after the release of a book and the movie version (and subsequent media releases) MPD went from a disorder with a handful of cases in a century to a major epidemic. Lives were ruined as unfortunate patients "recovered" memories of trauma that, it turned out later in court trials, could not have happened (but which were now as real as any other memories). Also, it was some time before court trials were presented with evidence that the techniques used to "uncover" memories actually created them, and so families were ripped apart and innocent family members, neighbors, etc., went to prison for crimes they never committed.


No....... pschos don't talk about hysteria as it can actually manifest itself.

Unfortunately, there are probably more cognitive science and and neuroscience labs in Massachusetts or in California than in all of South America combined. La V Jornada Internacional sobre Aprendizaje, Educación y Neurociencias had a handful of participants. A major neuroscience society in South America, SAN (Sociedad Argentina de Investigación en Neurociencias) has, as most academic societies do, an (usually) annual conference to interact with other labs across the world (even in national conferences, it is unusual for no representatives from other countries to show), share research projects and goals, go over the state of the field, etc. The next SAN conferences is XXVIII Congreso de la Sociedad Argentina de Investigación en Neurociencias (the program page, which is mainly in English for some reason, is here).

It's sponsored by SFN (Society for Neuroscience), an "international" organization and the largest neuroscience group in the world. In fact, its annual conference is larger than most academic conferences regardless of the field (most of the big ones are under 10,000, while the SFN conference brings in about 30,000 scientists).

However, you can see from a this global map of the society's chapters (it might take a minute for the ballon landmarks to show up) that while there are chapters across the world, the majority are in the US. Of course, that isn't a representative sketch of neuroscience research centers, as there are plenty in Europe (my old lab was affiliated with one in Italy), but it is sadly rather representative of "Latin lands". Neuroimaging equipment is unfortunately a rather large obstacle thanks to the price-tag. Also, as the US began the cognitive sciences and these spread across Europe rapidly mainly due to existing ties between US and European academic organizations, certain regions of the globe are more than a little under-represented.

I am excited that he even had the guts to include it.
That kind of description is in littered across historical Jesus research. It is not unique at all.


Strokes can be supported. (I have cured a serious 'stroke' in about ten seconds!)

You can't know if someone is having a stroke for sure without brain imaging equipment. Also, I'd be curious as to how physical barriers in arterial blood flow to the brain (a major cause of stroke), or actual hemorrhage (Intracerebral hemorrhage (ICH) is the most common non-ischemic form of stroke) can be cured.


In fact, I'll stick my neck out and tell you I've seen most of the above, over a 20 year period (1972-1991). If I wrote about my observations neither you, nor Sanders would be able to easily accept my story.
That's the thing. Most people in the medical field or the brain sciences would probably accept a lot of it if not all. What would differ, however, is the interpretation.

I wish I could remember which book or study I read it in, but I can't even remember if it was a crique of western psychiatry, a book on witchcraft and magic, or some anthropology study. At any rate, some time fairly recently (last few decades), a man came into a hospital in an country which had many regions without a lot of technology, education, etc. The man said he had been cursed and was going to die. The people at the hospital said their was nothing medically wrong with him, and supplied him nutrients to survive through IV because he refused to eat. And he died. Suggestion is extremely powerful, and among particular people it is more powerful than average.

In my post to you I think I asked you whether the incidence of male-hysteria in Eastern Mediterranean lands was similar to Male-hysteria in Latin lands.
As the various types of symptoms which have been cross-culturally identified with demonic or spirit possession, being touched by god or a similar power, witchcraft, being cursed, etc., can't be easily categorized into one modern classification vs. another, and as this holds true of 1st century Palestine, it is impossible to say. Did an individual Jesus "cured" who was supposedly possessed by an unclean spirit suffer from a mental disorder, or from a seizure caused by any number of things, or something else? A modern therapeutic technique dealing with people who have e.g., hear voices is to take them through the logical implications in a non-confrontational way (e.g., "why is it that you think no one else hears them?") and this has had success.

I am looking for a gender balance in hysteria incidence.
Hysteria isn't a diagnosis.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Ironically, "hysteria" is defined in terms of a lack of underlying pathology, but as it is a diagnosis rooted in sexism, symptoms once labled as evidence of hysteria have been re-classified.

Thankyou for answering my last ost to you. I read all your post, but must reduce it down.
Yes! I wrote this (above) to you...... this being one of several reasons why the word is unfashionable (to say the least).

That kind of description is in littered across historical Jesus research. It is not unique at all.
Just what I needed to see. Do you have any other authors in mind, because I want to read them...........?

You can't know if someone is having a stroke for sure without brain imaging equipment.
Of course you can't! Look..... you're a peasant Jew standing on a hillside in Galilee. A person who 'is paralysed' is brought forward. Jesus either 'does', 'says' or 'sounds' something. THe person gets up and starts wandering through the crowds, asking 'what's up?'. (I mentioned 'stroke victim' because that is what the medics and doctor later said they thought it was!) Now, what kind of impact do you think this would have in Galilee in 29CE? Do you think anybody would forget it?

That's the thing. Most people in the medical field or the brain sciences would probably accept a lot of it if not all. What would differ, however, is the interpretation.
I am not interested in their interpretation.... we surely are interested in the interpretations of a crowd of working class Jews in Galilee 2000 years ago!

Interpretation? God help us...... look, in East London during the blitz 1940, a man was seen measuring up a football pitch. The locals decided that he must be a spy, measuring the field to see if German paratroopers could use it. They called out the 'Home guard'. The man was confronted on the field, but before he could explain his presence they shot him dead. He was a surveyor.
Modern day quack-interpretations are unhelpful for us..... it is how Galilean peasants saw things.

For all the legions of medics, I'll bet none has researched male-hysteria in E.Med lands.

.................. a man came into a hospital in an country which had many regions without a lot of technology, education, etc. The man said he had been cursed and was going to die. The people at the hospital said their was nothing medically wrong with him, and supplied him nutrients to survive through IV because he refused to eat. And he died. Suggestion is extremely powerful, and among particular people it is more powerful than average.
Oh yes........the power of auto-suggestion is amazing. Our GPs prescribe placebos all the time and in great amounts.


As the various types of symptoms which have been cross-culturally identified with demonic or spirit possession, being touched by god or a similar power, witchcraft, being cursed, etc., can't be easily categorized into one modern classification vs. another, and as this holds true of 1st century Palestine, it is impossible to say. Did an individual Jesus "cured" who was supposedly possessed by an unclean spirit suffer from a mental disorder, or from a seizure caused by any number of things, or something else?
Why would we need to use a micrometer when we are seeking plausibility? WE can't get very many HJ facts even close to the 'probable' box. Most struggle to reach the possible box. Now you speak of exactnesses.

A modern therapeutic technique dealing with people who have e.g., hear voices is to take them through the logical implications in a non-confrontational way (e.g., "why is it that you think no one else hears them?") and this has had success.
THat's not modern at all, unless you mean 'last fifty years'. Unfortunately, patients rely so strongly on their 'hysteria' that they remain in denial. This fact covers most of the extreme cases.
In the interim, all patients are helped if they are introduced to the security of a strict life-routine, but most will move mountains to break these.
None of this helps us with HJ. Back to the Galilean people, standing, watching, transfixed in utter amazement that a charismatic person has just 'cured' an illness of some kind.

Hysteria isn't a diagnosis.
Since the quacks made it dissapear, how could it be? :)
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Since the quacks made it dissapear, how could it be? :)
They didn't. Hysteria was a classification given to a range of symptoms over a century ago. It wasn't consistent, nor scientific. However, all of those symptoms (not usually together) persist today. And they are still studied today. In the medical sciences, they are classified in various ways according to (IMO) ad hoc procedures and then investigated. In the cognitive sciences they are studied to understand how the mind works. But nobody has made anything disappear.


Just what I needed to see. Do you have any other authors in mind, because I want to read them...........?

J. P. Meier has an entire section in his 2nd volume of A Marginal Jew devoted to interpreting miracles/magic. The example from Lourdes I have used is his. It is assumed by most that Jesus' healings were mostly placebo effects, exaggerated, or (in the case of believers) real miracles (but that is not history). If you read all four volumes of A Marginal Jew, you will have an excellent understanding of the state and history of historical Jesus research.


Now, what kind of impact do you think this would have in Galilee in 29CE? Do you think anybody would forget it?
There is a series of volumes (seperated by era) under the title Witchcraft and Magic in Europe. The first volume deals with biblical times, the second with Greco-Roman, the third with the middles ages, the fourth with the period of the witch trials, the fifth with the 18th and 19th centuries, and the final volume with the 20th century. We have killed more people who were thought to perform such acts than we remember, and those who have performed "miracle/magic" healings are sometimes praised, sometimes killed, sometimes shunned, sometimes accepted as a fulfilling a normal social role (as a "shaman" or "witch-doctor"). People forget very easily.


I am not interested in their interpretation.... we surely are interested in the interpretations of a crowd of working class Jews in Galilee 2000 years ago!

Yes, but we're more interested in how much history is in the descriptions of these crowds and of this Jesus.

it is how Galilean peasants saw things.
Not in terms of hysteria.

For all the legions of medics, I'll bet none has researched male-hysteria in E.Med lands.

They've researched the symptoms, yes. But researching "male-hysteria" is like researching imbalances of bile. It's applying outdated terminology developed in a period where almost nothing about the brain and psychology were known, removing the last hundred years of research, and asking us to adopt the 19th century model and forget all the research.


THat's not modern at all, unless you mean 'last fifty years'.
Fifty years ago, they just started giving patients medication to basically turn them into zombies. Before that they literally cut their brains, induced shock, and used other methods to subdue them. What they did not do was what I described. Nor was I referring to "hysteria"
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
They didn't. Hysteria was a classification given to a range of symptoms over a century ago. It wasn't consistent, nor scientific. However, all of those symptoms (not usually together) persist today. And they are still studied today. In the medical sciences, they are classified in various ways according to (IMO) ad hoc procedures and then investigated. In the cognitive sciences they are studied to understand how the mind works. But nobody has made anything disappear.

Hi....again.....
They did! All of your mention about isolating individual asects which were once grouped under hysteria is 'dead right', but the bottom line is that they were helpless to do anything with any of it. It was most useful for the group word to dissapear. People are so dishonest....... I'll bet that some psychos today could be saying,'....of course, we have moved forward in giant leaps, you know, for instance, hysteria has all but been eliminated by us! :D
We once trusted everything a doctor said, but In Britain, many genreral practitioner surgeries have been caught keeping ghost atients on their books, because they are aid a certain amount for each patient per month of period. Good old digital technology........ caught out so many false accounters!

J. P. Meier has an entire section in his 2nd volume of A Marginal Jew devoted to interpreting miracles/magic. The example from Lourdes I have used is his. It is assumed by most that Jesus' healings were mostly placebo effects, exaggerated, or (in the case of believers) real miracles (but that is not history). If you read all four volumes of A Marginal Jew, you will have an excellent understanding of the state and history of historical Jesus research.
Thankyou. Thankyou. That's next, for me.

There is a series of volumes (seperated by era) under the title Witchcraft and Magic in Europe. The first volume deals with biblical times, the second with Greco-Roman, the third with the middles ages, the fourth with the period of the witch trials, the fifth with the 18th and 19th centuries, and the final volume with the 20th century. We have killed more people who were thought to perform such acts than we remember, and those who have performed "miracle/magic" healings are sometimes praised, sometimes killed, sometimes shunned, sometimes accepted as a fulfilling a normal social role (as a "shaman" or "witch-doctor"). People forget very easily.
And how! We've burned more than you! Good witch burning..... gets the old blood flowing, and yer don't half feel holy..... afterwards.....:facepalm:
But mystics and magicians don't seem to have been disposed of for their abilities,but rather their popularity in HJ times (and place). I do think that Jesus must have had the charisma, previous experience, etc to 'auto-suggest', 'charisma-cure', manipulate bone-structure etc, gosels don't seem to mention herbal remedy, but in general I can believe many of Jesus's cures.
Thing is....... a crowd watches a person exhibiting ...... umm.... a convulsion, let's make it an epileptic fit, grande-mal..... (leave hysteria behind for now). Jesus runs forward as the person begins to 'sound' and fall, clears space; many in the crowd could think that this is a dying person, (I often heard peole say that they thought an epileptic was actually in death throws, ok?). Jesus holds the person, waits for the 3rd (deep breathing, snorting, closed tracea) phase to commence and then might comfort the person, or might call out to demons to leave, and the person slowly falls into the 4th (recurring amnbesia) stage and then lays still for several minutes. Then is able to stand......... what would most of a group of peasants think?
This is a no-brainer........... Hysterical fits, Epileptic fits, bones, joints, muscles and tendons, oh....... a huge list of conditions for Jesus to correct.

Yes, but we're more interested in how much history is in the descriptions of these crowds and of this Jesus.
No....... change history for 'truth', 'fact', 'plausibility', 'possibility', 'probability'...... take your pick.....

They've researched the symptoms, yes. But researching "male-hysteria" is like researching imbalances of bile. It's applying outdated terminology developed in a period where almost nothing about the brain and psychology were known, removing the last hundred years of research, and asking us to adopt the 19th century model and forget all the research.
Us? Who is 'us'? This is a cop-out. Male-hysteria simply means the many conditions which once fell into this 'group'. Latin males were more susceptible to these than N.E.Males. So........ if anybody is really really interested in Jesus's healings, they would try to discover whether E.Med.Males were susceptible to these as well.
For those in the 'us' group, then they would list all the modern-day terminology and ask themselves, 'Do E.Med.Males suffermore of these...... like latin males do?'
When people don't know answers they do sometimes waffle. You must have been reading wafflers. Nobody knows, do they?

Fifty years ago, they just started giving patients medication to basically turn them into zombies. Before that they literally cut their brains, induced shock, and used other methods to subdue them. What they did not do was what I described. Nor was I referring to "hysteria"
Yes, but, as you say, this was not related to hysteria. I never knew an hysterical patient treated thus. Schizophrenia and others, yes...... ECT, and lobotomy is all recent, which does show us just how rubbish psychiatry history is, right up to the present. I have no respect for this non-science........ did you guess? :D

I think that I have enough (I will read Meier) to put this down and carry on with the more difficult aspects of HJ. I now believe at least 50% of the healing accounts. It's enough for me.

I thank you for your interest, responses and initiatives about all this.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi....again.....
They did! All of your mention about isolating individual asects which were once grouped under hysteria is 'dead right', but the bottom line is that they were helpless to do anything with any of it. It was most useful for the group word to dissapear.

1) The same is true for schizophrenia, manic episodes, and so on.
2) If we are concerned with how hysteria was "classified" and understood in antiquity, then we have only to look at the word's etymology. Plato, the Hippocratic corpus, even ancient Egyptian records all describe it as women being upset and moody because their wombs were moving around. The word hysteria comes from the Greek word for womb. People having seizures, people who were thought to be possessed, etc., were not suffering from what ancient "doctors" called hysteria, because that was what women suffered from when they were upset.
3) That tradition continued (hence the name) in the 17th century, where physicians continued to blame certain symptoms (like anxiety attacks) women had as the result of wombs moving around.
4) The concentration on women didn't end for a long time. One of the "symptoms", from ancient Greece and Egypt to the 19th century, was being female. If you weren't female, you couldn't have hysteria.
5) When, finally, in the 19th century "physicians" moved away from hysteria being a problem with a woman's uterus, they were left without a classification of symptoms or classification at all. Typical descriptions ranged from (again, mostly in women) anxiety attacks and convulsions to any pathological/disease symptoms of the body at all which didn't seem to have an underlying medical cause.
6) As medicine progressed, a number of these causes were found. Things that had been diagnosed as "hysteria" turned out to be epilepsy or other diseases/disorders.


7) Psychiatry has not made "hysteria" disappear. Manuals like The Analysis of Hysteria: Understanding Conversion and Dissociation (by the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and published in 1995) continue to be produced.


People are so dishonest....... I'll bet that some psychos today could be saying,'....of course, we have moved forward in giant leaps, you know, for instance, hysteria has all but been eliminated by us!
See above, #7


But mystics and magicians don't seem to have been disposed of for their abilities,but rather their popularity in HJ times (and place).

He was crucified. Reactions to miracle-workers varied even in the same region at the same time, and although magic was outlawed during pretty much the entire Greek and then Roman period (more witches were killed in one trial in pre-christian Rome than in all of Europe during the period of witchtrials in most years; twice), we have uncovered thousands of curse tablets, voodoo dolls, etc.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
1) The same is true for schizophrenia, manic episodes, and so on.
2) If we are concerned with how hysteria was "classified" and understood in antiquity, then we have only to look at the word's etymology. Plato, the Hippocratic corpus, even ancient Egyptian records all describe it as women being upset and moody because their wombs were moving around. The word hysteria comes from the Greek word for womb. People having seizures, people who were thought to be possessed, etc., were not suffering from what ancient "doctors" called hysteria, because that was what women suffered from when they were upset.
3) That tradition continued (hence the name) in the 17th century, where physicians continued to blame certain symptoms (like anxiety attacks) women had as the result of wombs moving around.
4) The concentration on women didn't end for a long time. One of the "symptoms", from ancient Greece and Egypt to the 19th century, was being female. If you weren't female, you couldn't have hysteria.
5) When, finally, in the 19th century "physicians" moved away from hysteria being a problem with a woman's uterus, they were left without a classification of symptoms or classification at all. Typical descriptions ranged from (again, mostly in women) anxiety attacks and convulsions to any pathological/disease symptoms of the body at all which didn't seem to have an underlying medical cause.
6) As medicine progressed, a number of these causes were found. Things that had been diagnosed as "hysteria" turned out to be epilepsy or other diseases/disorders.


7) Psychiatry has not made "hysteria" disappear. Manuals like The Analysis of Hysteria: Understanding Conversion and Dissociation (by the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and published in 1995) continue to be produced.

Female.....women......womb...... Oi! Not interested. I know females can be affected........ It is male-hysteria incidence I am interested in. As in..... blokes.
Without a positive result there, my search would be over.
I am inclined to favour it's presence, as with Latin males.
Since most people move more quickly to correct than support, I intend to push this and wait for information via negative response. It worked for me over forty years as a commercial-detective, it never failed. Works every time! :)

He was crucified. Reactions to miracle-workers varied even in the same region at the same time, and although magic was outlawed during pretty much the entire Greek and then Roman period (more witches were killed in one trial in pre-christian Rome than in all of Europe during the period of witchtrials in most years; twice), we have uncovered thousands of curse tablets, voodoo dolls, etc.
Oh dear..... not for any healing he did! For popularity..... maybe. For perceived threats...... could be. For......... breaching eace in the Temple......probably.
For healing? ............. don't think so....

As I mentioned before, I am taking this onboard (positively) and moving forward; there's so much more to look into. I am going to read Meiers, because his reviews and introductions are in my best-five out of circa 24.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
As I mentioned before, I am taking this onboard (positively) and moving forward; there's so much more to look into. I am going to read Meiers, because his reviews and introductions are in my best-five out of circa 24.

Meier's is solid too. excellent work like Sanders.

What will be good for you is seeing the two different men each has flushed out of their personal research.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Female.....women......womb...... Oi! Not interested.
That's the problem. You wish to insist on applying this classification while ignoring why it exists at all.

I know females can be affected........ It is male-hysteria incidence I am interested in. As in..... blokes.
That's not the point. The only reason that certain syptoms were ever classified as manifestations of "hysteria" were because women were doing things which indicated to the medical experts of the time that something was wrong with the position or state of their wombs. For over 2,000 years, that was hysteria. Women with wombs being in the wrong place. Then modern medicine starts to occur, and physicians notice that things which had been identified with hysteria were similar to other things. And that they happened to men too. And that created a problem, because the entire classification scheme which had existed for over two millenia was now worthless as it had
1) never been comprehensive to begin with, as plenty of things which were classified as evidence of hysteria were actually something else, and many things classified as something else would have been better classified as hysteria
and
2) nobody knew what symptoms "hysteria" now covered, or what it was, or how it should be described, or if it were multiple different things, or actually part of something larger, and on and on.

You can continue to pretend that some medical conspiracy covered it up, but I just gave you a reference to a psychiatric manual on hysteria from the 90s, as well as references to the topic from a few years ago. And you can continue to pretend that hysteria has some kind of constellation of symptoms making it a valid diagnosis rather than a vague, ill-defined remnant of 2,000+ years of sexism as well as the unscientific idiocy of psychoanalysis, but that doesn't change what the state of research is. And the symptoms you have described and that are relevant for this discussion have been and continue to be thoroughly researcherd.

Finally, most of Jesus' miracles were probably more casting out demons and less curing the lame. It's a lot easier for the placebo effect to work if there is no underlying physical pathology.


I am inclined to favour it's presence, as with Latin males.
Then define it. Give the list of symptoms such that they are
1) clearly distinguished from other diagnoses
2) classfied under this diagnosis based on evidence, theory, and practice consistent with modern science


Oh dear..... not for any healing he did!
That would be part of it. If he was popular, that meant dangerous to some other group.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Meier's is solid too. excellent work like Sanders.

What will be good for you is seeing the two different men each has flushed out of their personal research.


Hi......... yes........ moving forward.

Trouble is, Meier has written many books, and I would like to get-lucky with my initial choice. Why did I ever get hooked on this..... :D

I must respond to Legion later today, Mrs B is taking me out!
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
That's the problem. You wish to insist on applying this classification while ignoring why it exists at all.

I kept the above words to activate the quote function. I think a fair and simple answer to the whole lot is 'Teach your grandma to suck eggs!'

This post, and all the rest before, shows an inclination to wander far away from the focal point, which was :- Question:- 'Are E.Med.Males susceptible to 'hysteria' to the same degree that Latin males are?' I think I've recognised this tendency in you before.

I do not know. You do not know. Neither you nor I have found anybody who does know. Ergo..... I made a decision for myself, and explained that I would move forward.

But you're not camourflaging such a 'no' with me, you're not..... I accept that neither you nor anyone I know can answer the straight question as shown over recent threads and posts. That's it. I'll make a decision and move on.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I accept that neither you nor anyone I know can answer the straight question as shown over recent threads and posts. That's it. I'll make a decision and move on.
Here's the answer: there was no prevalence. The answer is that it did not occur.


I kept the above words to activate the quote function. I think a fair and simple answer to the whole lot is 'Teach your grandma to suck eggs!'

This post, and all the rest before, shows an inclination to wander far away from the focal point, which was :- Question:- 'Are E.Med.Males susceptible to 'hysteria' to the same degree that Latin males are?' I think I've recognised this tendency in you before.

It's like asking "was there more phlogiston in the 1st century?" When your question asks about the prevalence of a condition that has never, ever, in over 2,000 years had a consistent classification, it is impossible to answer whether any group during any period including today is more susceptible to it.

You act like I'm avoiding the question. I'm not. You keep hammering away at this meaningless inaccurate interpretation you've stumbled upon after getting part way through one book on the historical Jesus, and as a result you've combined not knowing much about one field with whatever you think hysteria is and turned it into a big deal. The connection between how healers/miracle-workers like Jesus did what they did and how they were perceived (as well as what, exactly, they did) are all important questions.

You aren't asking that. You've decided that some description in a single book you've read enables you to connect the historical Jesus and his healings with hysteria. As a result:

I do not know. You do not know. Neither you nor I have found anybody who does know. Ergo..... I made a decision for myself, and explained that I would move forward.
You've simply made up something that doesn't exist. You've taken a diagnosis nobody has ever agreed upon when it comes to the symptoms, let alone what it actually is, and made a decision about how this relates to the 1st century based on reading part of one book. No systematic research into the diagnosis or (far more importantly) how people have done the things that Jesus is credited with over the last 3,000 years in various cultures including Jesus' and how their actions have been understood by others. There is a vast amount of literature on all of this, but given how much you read into Jesus' swimming ability based on made-up things about Egyptians, I doubt understanding is as important as coming to conclusions.
 
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