Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva said : I don't for the life of me understand why you can't just say Ingledsva was right about what the Bible, and the verses I (Clear) posted, that we were discussing, say.

1)If you remember, this discussion started out with disciples claim that Hades/hell existed in the biblical text. You were incorrect and he was correct. You never admitted disciple was correct. It is completely hypocritical for you to ask for recognition for yourself that you are unwilling to give to another.


ING - I suggest you go back to the beginning of the "HELL" discussion. # 1445.

Does Jesus actually teach about "Hell?"

Does He have to? Don't you reference the OT on NT topics? Is every reference point mentioned by Jesus? No, only some, but we still reference the oT.

Anyways, yes, He does.

# 1447


That sets the debate between he and I. The answer is NO - Jesus teaches about SHEOL, being translated HADES in the Greek.


Hell is a later, different concept, of torture AFTER JUDGMENT for sinners.


Also - I very specifically referred to our debate in which you posted multiple verses - ALL of which I proved were about SHEOL.

*

2) If you remember, instead of simply agreeing with me that spirits of men existed before birth, you did not just say “Clear was right about pre-mortal existence of spirits of mankind”. Why ask for recognition you are unwilling to give another person.


ING - WHAT? are you going way back to our debate in which you used later Gnostic texts, - and I might add -has nothing to do with this Hell debate?

And I might add that you are misquoting what I actually said.

The Bible says God create everything, including humans, whom are imbued with Spirit/soul. A clay pot with the breath of life. It says he knew us before we were born. Speaks for itself. You were bringing in later Gnostic ideas.

*

3) You have been incorrect about so many of your “proof”s in the past that your track record has not been stellar. Remember when you tried to “translate” the greek of enoch and told the forum that the “evil spirits” were the spirits of mankind? Also, you never admitted your translation was faulty. Why the desperate desire for recognition that you may not deserve? You never told me my correction was correct; you never admitted that you can’t really read greek but simply use dictionary level “translation” skills.


ING - Again - a different discussion - where you repeatedly twisted what I actually said, - and since you posted humongous, pages long posts - I expect you to go back - find - said - sentence - quote it and list the number - as I did above - to prevent further twisting!


*

4) Your “proofs” have often been faulty You have claimed to have “proved” so much and so often when the “proof” was merely an unproven claim. I am actually quite interested in your theory that Hades/Hell ALWAYS refers to the spirit world and never to the punishment after Judgment. However, because your incorrect claims and have been so frequent , I think this new claim deserves looking at before we call it “good”.


ING - No they haven't been. And Again - PROVE IT - with the quotes and post numbers.


*

5) Also, the posts I made that supported your discussion regarding Hades/spirit world was a cut and post from years ago (2009) describing hades/spirit world : http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ine-gospel-being-taught-dead.html#post1782982


Since I made this same claim in 2009, five years previous, it makes sense that you should tell me that I am right on this point rather than me telling you that you are correct.


ING - LOL! That is funny. You repeatedly said I was wrong - and then went "oh wait a minute!"

*

6) Ingledsva, I am actually very grateful for your claim regarding Hades (truly, I am), since, if it is correct, will confirm my beliefs rather than change them, it will augment the LDS stance rather than detract from it; and it is quite interesting to me as a point of historical consideration.


However, it is the first point that you have made in many, many, many posts that has been positive or helpful . I cannot afford the time if you cannot come up with good points more often than this.


While I appreciate this single good point you have made, you should allow me time to look at it and study it out before you demand recognition you have, historically, not deserved in the past (yet still wanted and expected).

I honestly wish that you find some sort of satisfaction and joy in this life and I hope that your claim proves to be correct.


Clear

ING - You do realize - don't you - that repeating - over-and-over - erroneous information - about what I actually said in those posts - does not somehow make you correct? Right?


Stop claiming my posts are incorrect - and attempt to actually prove such!


As I said - if you have a problem with my posts, - quote the actual response, and include the post number - so I (and everyone else that is interested) can actually go back and read it in context, - and I can point out why you are wrong.



*

 

[Clear]

Ingledsva :

You habitually you minimize others while overestimating the value of your own premises.

I pointed out to you that in 2006, I had ALREADY made the same point you think you revealed and gave you and the rest of forum readers the link as proof : http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ine-gospel-being-taught-dead.html#post1782982

I had already described, years ago, in this forum, Hell/Hades/Sheol/Spirit world, etc as a way station and described, not only it’s characteristics in detail, but sited multiple early judeo-christian texts regarding it’s characteristics, conditions, and it’s inhabitants as well as their conditions and communications. I described in textual detail not only specific individual and prophets who were there, but what they were doing and described the description of Jesus Christs visit and it’s purpose there as well as describing decensus literature and coordinating the it with biblical text and early Judeo-Christian traditions. I described those who entered Hades and some who had resurrected and their experiences both there and after their resurrection. And, this was an overview rather than all of the data. Then you become so very proud when you try to prove to me the very thing I already knew and had described in detail.

Perhaps, since we were so deep in your petty complaint against disciple that “hades/hell” didn't exist in the Bible, you simply assumed that you were the one who recognized that Hell/Hades/Sheol/Paradise/the Pit/Spirit world/, etc, etc. was a temporary way station. Even when you did describe Hades/Sheol/Hell as a "way station", you were still only able to give us a minimal dictionary-type definition.

Your sole NEW contribution to this point was your unconfirmed personal theory that Hades ALWAYS means sheol. THEN, you expect us to immediately agree and recognize you for some major contribution to understanding Hades? Really?

I DO think your theory about the use of greek HADES, is interesting and give it enough interest and credence to consider it. All the rest of your argument is fairly old news. Even if your theory is incorrect and has faults, I think it may have historical usefulness as a "rule of thumb" type of context.(I am hopeful that it will, at least, generate some interesting thoughts and connections). I DO appreciate this contribution if it turns out to be correct. And if it is incorrect but still useful, then I thank you.



Clear

 

[Desert Snake]

I DO think your theory about the use of greek HADES, is interesting and give it enough interest and credence to consider it. All the rest of your argument is fairly old news. Even if your theory is incorrect and has faults, I think it may have historical usefulness as a "rule of thumb" type of context.(I am hopeful that it will, at least, generate some interesting thoughts and connections). I DO appreciate this contribution if it turns out to be correct. And if it is incorrect but still useful, then I thank you.



Clear

Since the topic has become such a hodge-podge mess, I'm going to have to re-read posts and figure a decent point to argue/look into.

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva :

You habitually you minimize others while overestimating the value of your own premises.

I pointed out to you that in 2006, I had ALREADY made the same point you think you revealed and gave you and the rest of forum readers the link as proof : http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ine-gospel-being-taught-dead.html#post1782982

I had already described, years ago, in this forum, Hell/Hades/Sheol/Spirit world, etc as a way station and described, not only it’s characteristics in detail, but sited multiple early judeo-christian texts regarding it’s characteristics, conditions, and it’s inhabitants as well as their conditions and communications. I described in textual detail not only specific individual and prophets who were there, but what they were doing and described the description of Jesus Christs visit and it’s purpose there as well as describing decensus literature and coordinating the it with biblical text and early Judeo-Christian traditions. I described those who entered Hades and some who had resurrected and their experiences both there and after their resurrection. And, this was an overview rather than all of the data. Then you become so very proud when you try to prove to me the very thing I already knew and had described in detail.

Perhaps, since we were so deep in your petty complaint against disciple that “hades/hell” didn't exist in the Bible, you simply assumed that you were the one who recognized that Hell/Hades/Sheol/Paradise/the Pit/Spirit world/, etc, etc. was a temporary way station. Even when you did describe Hades/Sheol/Hell as a "way station", you were still only able to give us a minimal dictionary-type definition.

Your sole NEW contribution to this point was your unconfirmed personal theory that Hades ALWAYS means sheol. THEN, you expect us to immediately agree and recognize you for some major contribution to understanding Hades? Really?

I DO think your theory about the use of greek HADES, is interesting and give it enough interest and credence to consider it. All the rest of your argument is fairly old news. Even if your theory is incorrect and has faults, I think it may have historical usefulness as a "rule of thumb" type of context.(I am hopeful that it will, at least, generate some interesting thoughts and connections). I DO appreciate this contribution if it turns out to be correct. And if it is incorrect but still useful, then I thank you.



Clear

Dude, get a grip. I didn't "minimalize" you or anyone else by debating this issue.

You on the other hand consistently called me names. And I did report it after you did so, several times.


You have told me about your download a couple of times now - however - apparently you didn't read it - as you argued with me over the know Sheol facts, even in the OT.

You start belittling, and calling people names when you can't win a debate.


And you are twisting what I actually said! AGAIN, get the quote and post number, or just plain stop this bull!


And for the fourth? fifth? time - I did not tell Disciple that Hades/Hell did not exist in the Bible.

I said HELL is an incorrect translation of Sheol or Hades, in the Bible. - Sheol and Hades are Grave/holding place /pit, etc. - BEFORE JUDGMENT!


Hell, is an incorrect - later - English translation - meaning a place of punishment AFTER JUDGMENT.


So again stop putting out lies about what I said.

Post the ACTUAL quote, and post number! Actual quote and post number!


How many time do I have to type it?


*

 

[Ingledsva]

Since the topic has become such a hodge-podge mess, I'm going to have to re-read posts and figure a decent point to argue/look into.

That it definitely has. LOL!


Should probably start a new thread, and specify short to the point posts, with normal size print, so people following along, and participants, can follow along easier, and join in the debate.



*

 

[Clear]

ZooGirl02 #1441 “Jesus had already taught about Hell before He said this to Saint Peter ….”
Ingledsva # 1445 “Does Jesus actually teach about "Hell?"
Disciple # 1447 “…yes, He does.”
Ingledsva #1452 “Actually I don't believe Jesus does. Tanakh definitely does not have Hell.”
Disciple # 1453 “Nope, He does, I'll find the verse(s)”
Ingledsva # 1453 “..I haven't found such yet, when read in the original Greek.”
Clear # 1455 “Jesus taught : “…thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.” (Luke 10:15) Jesus taught “ And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments…” (Luke 16:23)

In #1455, I provided more than 20 other references to hell/hades/Sheol/the Pit/Paradise/etc from both Jewish Greek (LXX) and from Greek NT where Hell/hades is referenced as a place where spirits congregate after death. (It’s been known for years as a way station, rather than a fiery hell of torture.)

Ingledsva : It is completely inappropriate for you to call other people names or to say they lie to deflect or obscure your own errors.

You never admitted to disciple that he was quite correct that Jesus Jesus actually does teach about hell in the New Testament. Especially since the Christian literature discusses in great depth his descent into Hades/Hell and the freeing of the spirits that have congregated there.

Instead of admitting disciple was correct, you shifted the conversation to the MEANING of hell/hades/sheol/etc. which was already an apparent historical principle. (though your theory is New)

disciple was correct and you could have simply said : “Yes disciple, you are correct, Jesus DOES teach of Hades/Hell and Hades/Hell IS in the bible, but , I believe it has a different meaning to it when it is used in these references.

If you agree Hell/Hades exists as a way station, then you should be AGREEING rather than arguing.

If Jesus taught about Hell/Hades as a way station then you should ADMIT disciple was correct that Jesus taught of Hell/Hades rather than bickering.

I gave disciple frubals for his historical correctness, while you are arguing with him when he was actually quite correct in his claim that Jesus taught about hell/hades. It makes no sense.


Lastly, your theory that "Hades ALWAYS means this place of congregation" is incorrect. Still, I do think it is may become a good rule of thumb of first consideration for nuance of meaning and I thank you for suggesting it, even though it has some error in it.


Clear
φυφυδρτωτωδρ

 

[Clear]

disciple :

So, after so many posts of petty arguments you can see that we still come to the inevitable conclusion that you were certainly correct that Hades/Hell exists in the New Testament. And you are correct that Jesus spoke and taught concerning Hades/Hell.

However, I claimed that it's meaning was as a spirit world where spirits congregate upon separation from their bodies at death. I hope this makes sense to you in all of the confusion.

You deserve the frubals you were given for your observation

Clear

 

[Ingledsva]

ZooGirl02 #1441 “Jesus had already taught about Hell before He said this to Saint Peter ….”
Ingledsva # 1445 “Does Jesus actually teach about "Hell?"
Disciple # 1447 “…yes, He does.”
Ingledsva #1452 “Actually I don't believe Jesus does. Tanakh definitely does not have Hell.”
Disciple # 1453 “Nope, He does, I'll find the verse(s)”
Ingledsva # 1453 “..I haven't found such yet, when read in the original Greek.”
Clear # 1455 “Jesus taught : “…thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.” (Luke 10:15) Jesus taught “ And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments…” (Luke 16:23)

In #1455, I provided more than 20 other references to hell/hades/Sheol/the Pit/Paradise/etc from both Jewish Greek (LXX) and from Greek NT where Hell/hades is referenced as a place where spirits congregate after death. (It’s been known for years as a way station, rather than a fiery hell of torture.)

Ingledsva : It is completely inappropriate for you to call other people names or to say they lie to deflect or obscure your own errors.

You never admitted to disciple that he was quite correct that Jesus Jesus actually does teach about hell in the New Testament. Especially since the Christian literature discusses in great depth his descent into Hades/Hell and the freeing of the spirits that have congregated there.

Instead of admitting disciple was correct, you shifted the conversation to the MEANING of hell/hades/sheol/etc. which was already an apparent historical principle. (though your theory is New)

disciple was correct and you could have simply said : “Yes disciple, you are correct, Jesus DOES teach of Hades/Hell and Hades/Hell IS in the bible, but , I believe it has a different meaning to it when it is used in these references.

If you agree Hell/Hades exists as a way station, then you should be AGREEING rather than arguing.

If Jesus taught about Hell/Hades as a way station then you should ADMIT disciple was correct that Jesus taught of Hell/Hades rather than bickering.

I gave disciple frubals for his historical correctness, while you are arguing with him when he was actually quite correct in his claim that Jesus taught about hell/hades. It makes no sense.


Lastly, your theory that "Hades ALWAYS means this place of congregation" is incorrect. Still, I do think it is may become a good rule of thumb of first consideration for nuance of meaning and I thank you for suggesting it, even though it has some error in it.


Clear
φυφυδρτωτωδρ

And AGAIN trying to twist what was said.


It is ridiculous to have to repeat common info over and over!


Tanakh does NOT have Hell - it has SHEOL.


NT does not have Hell - it has HADES which from the verses - as shown - is obviously SHEOL not Hell.

PS. You provided later ENGLISH translations that erroneously translate SHEOL and HADES into Hell.


They are NOT Hell.


Jesus did not teach about Hell - and you adding "/Hades" to it doesn't change that fact.


I find it hilarious that you guys keep highlighting - a TRANSLATION - and an incorrect one at that - as proof Jesus taught about "Hell." LOL!


EDIT - forgot to add - keep those post in order and context - and show the whole quote.


For instance you have 1452 (which mentions Tanakh) out of context. In 1451 which you did not show - he mentions the OT.



*

 

[Ingledsva]

disciple :

So, after so many posts of petty arguments you can see that we still come to the inevitable conclusion that you were certainly correct that Hades/Hell exists in the New Testament. And you are correct that Jesus spoke and taught concerning Hades/Hell.

However, I claimed that it's meaning was as a spirit world where spirits congregate upon separation from their bodies at death. I hope this makes sense to you in all of the confusion.

You deserve the frubals you were given for your observation

Clear

You can repeat such over - and over - and over - and it still won't be correct.


HELL is a later word meaning a place of eternal torture for sinners AFTER JUDGMENT!

SHEOL is GRAVE/PIT/PLACE of HOLDING - NOT ETERNAL - ONLY UNTIL JUDGMENT!

SHEOL and HADES have been MISTRANSLATED as the "DIFFERENT" Hell .


This has been proven by the context of the verses - as you were shown.


SO AGAIN! There is no actual "HELL" in the Bible. Just a mistranslated word that you folks are reading.


*

 

[Clear]

Ingledsva :
“It is ridiculous to have to repeat common info over and over!” - Ingledsva
I agree, What you are doing is completely ridiculous. Please stop doing it!



Ingledsva said: "HELL is a later word meaning a place of eternal torture for sinners AFTER JUDGMENT!”

1)You are repeating yourself again. It is ridiculous, PLEASE, stop doing it.

2)It’s blatantly obvious to readers that you are trying to mistranslate Hades/Hell contextually, simply to appear as though you are correct. Too late, you’ve already told us that you’ve "proved" that Hades/hell is a place where spirits of the dead congregate.

Forum member have already read your repeated admissions and "proofs" that Hades/hell is a place where spirits of the dead congregate. To now try to backtrack and claim something different simply to win an argument, simply demonstrates to what lengths you will go to win an argument.

Please, please, please. Do not simply repeat yourself again. Your horse is dead. Stop beating it.

Clear

 

[Clear]

Ingledsva :
“It is ridiculous to have to repeat common info over and over!” - Ingledsva
I agree, What you are doing is completely ridiculous. Please stop doing it!


Ingledsva said: "HELL is a later word meaning a place of eternal torture for sinners AFTER JUDGMENT!”

1)You are repeating yourself again. It is ridiculous, PLEASE, stop doing it.

2)It’s blatantly obvious to readers that you are trying to mistranslate Hades/Hell contextually, simply to appear as though you are correct. Too late, you’ve already told us that you’ve "proved" that Hades/hell is a place where spirits of the dead congregate.

Forum member have already read your repeated admissions and "proofs" that Hades/hell is a place where spirits of the dead congregate. To now try to backtrack and claim something different simply to win an argument, simply demonstrates to what lengths you will go to win an argument.

Please, please, please. Do not simply repeat yourself again. Your horse is dead. Stop beating it.

Clear

FORUM MEMBERS

1) Hades/Hell, is NOT in this context, a place of eternal torture for sinners. In this context, it is a place where spirits of the dead congregate.

When Jesus descends into Hell/hades in the gospel of nicodemus, he doesn’t say “liar, liar, pants on fire!” , he doesn't say “I wish I had brought a fire extinguisher!”, He doesn't say “whew, I thought Bermuda was hot…” , but instead he visits a place where the spirits of the dead have congregated. The Christian texts often use Hades/Hell to describe the place where spirits of the dead congregate. IN pseudo-philo, Christian “Hell” is a place where spirits of the dead congregate. In New Testament revelations, when death and hell/hades deliver up their dead, it is a place where the dead have congregated. In the apocalypse of Peter, when the apostle Peter tells us that Jesus “ will command Hell to open its bars of steel and to give up all that is in it” he is speaking of the place where the spirits of the dead congregate. In the Testaments of the twelve Patriarchs, when Reuben is speaking of hell, it is a place where the spirits of the dead congregate. In the Odes of Solomon, Hell is a place where the spirits of the dead congregate. In Bartholomew, hell is the place where the spirits of the dead congregate.



All of the silly bickering has been ridiculous and it is a complete waste of time since we remain at the very same place where we started.

1) Disciple is quite correct that Jesus taught concerning hades/hell as I have proven in multiple textual examples.

2) I remain correct in my claim, that, In this context, Hades/Hell is a place where the spirits of the dead congregate as the early texts prove.

After all the petty bickering, has been worthless. Lets go on to something else, for heavens sake.


Clear
φυδρδρδρφυω

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva :
“It is ridiculous to have to repeat common info over and over!” - Ingledsva
I agree, What you are doing is completely ridiculous. Please stop doing it!



Ingledsva said: "HELL is a later word meaning a place of eternal torture for sinners AFTER JUDGMENT!”

1)You are repeating yourself again. It is ridiculous, PLEASE, stop doing it.

2)It’s blatantly obvious to readers that you are trying to mistranslate Hades/Hell contextually, simply to appear as though you are correct. Too late, you’ve already told us that you’ve "proved" that Hades/hell is a place where spirits of the dead congregate.

Forum member have already read your repeated admissions and "proofs" that Hades/hell is a place where spirits of the dead congregate. To now try to backtrack and claim something different simply to win an argument, simply demonstrates to what lengths you will go to win an argument.

Please, please, please. Do not simply repeat yourself again. Your horse is dead. Stop beating it.

Clear

WOW! That is one major twisting of what I said Dude! LOL!


AGAIN - Hell is a later concept meaning a place where the JUDGED go for torture - in most Christian minds.


That is not what Sheol or Hades means.


Hence it is a mistranslation of Sheol and Hades.




*

 

[Ingledsva]

FORUM MEMBERS

1) Hades/Hell, is NOT in this context, a place of eternal torture for sinners. In this context, it is a place where spirits of the dead congregate.

When Jesus descends into Hell/hades in the gospel of nicodemus, he doesn’t say “liar, liar, pants on fire!” , he doesn't say “I wish I had brought a fire extinguisher!”, He doesn't say “whew, I thought Bermuda was hot…” , but instead he visits a place where the spirits of the dead have congregated. The Christian texts often use Hades/Hell to describe the place where spirits of the dead congregate. IN pseudo-philo, Christian “Hell” is a place where spirits of the dead congregate. In New Testament revelations, when death and hell/hades deliver up their dead, it is a place where the dead have congregated. In the apocalypse of Peter, when the apostle Peter tells us that Jesus “ will command Hell to open its bars of steel and to give up all that is in it” he is speaking of the place where the spirits of the dead congregate. In the Testaments of the twelve Patriarchs, when Reuben is speaking of hell, it is a place where the spirits of the dead congregate. In the Odes of Solomon, Hell is a place where the spirits of the dead congregate. In Bartholomew, hell is the place where the spirits of the dead congregate.



All of the silly bickering has been ridiculous and it is a complete waste of time since we remain at the very same place where we started.

1) Disciple is quite correct that Jesus taught concerning hades/hell as I have proven in multiple textual examples.

2) I remain correct in my claim, that, In this context, Hades/Hell is a place where the spirits of the dead congregate as the early texts prove.

After all the petty bickering, has been worthless. Lets go on to something else, for heavens sake.


Clear
φυδρδρδρφυω

And again twisting what I said.



There is no Sheol/Hell!


There is no Hades/Hell!


The "WORD" Hell in today's Bibles is a mistranslation.


Sheol, and Hades, have this meaning - grave/gathering place of the ALL the dead BEFORE JUDGMENT.


Hell's meaning is a place of punishment ONLY for SINNERS - AFTER they have been JUDGED!

Hell is a later idea having nothing to do with Sheol or Hades, and is a mistranslation in the Bible.



*

 

[Desert Snake]

Still on this...

Yes, there is a hell!

 

[Ingledsva]

Still on this...

Yes, there is a hell!

Very true! LOL!


But I'm not going to let him get away with twisting what I said. :no:


Edit - LOL! I just realized you meant there actually is a Hell.


I thought you meant the thread was becoming Hell. LOL!


Hence my "very true! LOL!






*

 

[Desert Snake]

Very true! LOL!


But I'm not going to let him get away with twisting what I said. :no:



*

I don't have a Bible at hand. otherwise I would join this monster thread again.

I believe there is a hell after judgement. That's part of the judgement.

 

[Ingledsva]

I don't have a Bible at hand. otherwise I would join this monster thread again.

I believe there is a hell after judgement. That's part of the judgement.

Most Christians believe that. And they have a right to if they wish.


But that is different from the debate. The actual words in the Hebrew and Greek are Sheol and Hades, both of which are holding place for ALL before-judgment.

The Hell idea seems to have come about later with misunderstandings of some of the original texts.


It actually seem to be saying ALL at death go to Sheol/Hades - to await the Messiah and the end - and then are judged, - and if found wanting - face total annihilation in the purifying fire - along with Sheol/Hades - at the second death. The torture idea is much later.


Did you see my reply to you on image of G-D thread? I think is # 104.


EDIT - Forgot to add that you can find free on-line Bibles - or free computer Bible programs.

*

 

[Desert Snake]

Most Christians believe that. And they have a right to if they wish.


But that is different from the debate. The actual words in the Hebrew and Greek are Sheol and Hades, both of which are holding place for ALL before-judgment.

The Hell idea seems to have come about later with misunderstandings of some of the original texts.






*

Here's your problem. 'Hades' to Greek writers ONLY means a 'hellish type underworld. It would never be used otherwise. Like our hell, Hades is a place one could theoretically go to, eat a sandwich, and come back from. Hades to people reading Greek would make absolutely no sense in any other way.

Now, since I don't have verses to check, I don't know where 'hades' is actually used, but that is the only meaning. If there is "Hades" after judgement, it means our Hell idea.

 

[Ingledsva]

I don't have a Bible at hand. otherwise I would join this monster thread again.

....

Forgot to say - Please don't - it is long enough.


Start a fresh new thread, without all this back and forth, so we can carry on a respectful conversation, and people might actually read it. LOL!



*

 

[Ingledsva]

Here's your problem. 'Hades' to Greek writers ONLY means a 'hellish type underworld. It would never be used otherwise. Like our hell, Hades is a place one could theoretically go to, eat a sandwich, and come back from. Hades to people reading Greek would make absolutely no sense in any other way.

Now, since I don't have verses to check, I don't know where 'hades' is actually used, but that is the only meaning. If there is "Hades" after judgement, it means our Hell idea.

There are no Hades after Judgment verses. It tells us after JUDGMENT Sheol/Hades and the sinners are BOTH totally annihilated in the "Lake of Fire/refining fire."

There is no longer a need for a holding place.


13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


I showed all of the verses in context to show they did not mean Hell.


PS - You must be a night-owl like I am.

EDIT - Forgot to add that is Revelation 20:13-15 - so people can look it up.


*