Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

[Katzpur]

And when all else fails, just say:

And AGAIN NOT SO - See above.

Note to Clear: "Debating some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good at playing chess you are, the pigeon is just going to knock down all the pieces, poop on the board, and walk around all triumphant."

I hope you're in this for the long haul because I can tell you for sure that Ingledsva is.

 

[Ingledsva]

And when all else fails, just say:



Note to Clear: "Debating some people is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good at playing chess you are, the pigeon is just going to knock down all the pieces, poop on the board, and walk around all triumphant."

I hope you're in this for the long haul because I can tell you for sure that Ingledsva is.

Just one problem with this - he hasn't proven what he is saying.


Perhaps that makes him the pigeon?


I don't know what is not understood about what I am saying -

"ING - I don't know what your problem is here - that I have to repeat over and over - but the words are Sheol in Hebrew, and Hades in the Greek. Hell is an English translation that is incorrect - to the original meaning


"Modern" Christianity has a mistranslated "Hell" with Pagan torture and fire of sinners tacked on.


Christian Bible text, on the other hand, has "Hades," which as shown to you over and over, has a meaning like "Sheol" grave/pit/holding for


*

 

[Desert Snake]

Anyways, i'm off from arguing this topic, I will argue other topics.


cheers, disciple

 

[Katzpur]

Just one problem with this - he hasn't proven what he is saying.

I'd say that pretty much any completely unbiased outsider would say he's done a far better job of proving his position than you have yours, and I'm not just talking about the issue of "hell." I'm talking about the entire dialogue between the two of you. I don't even know how many people are following it. I only am because I learn so much from Clear.

 

[Ingledsva]

..................

This is so misconstrued it's unbelievable.

How so?

I showed multiple verses that he posted - In their actual context - for meaning.

Showing that the translation of "Hades" is "grave/Pit" which connects it to Sheol, - and NOT to the later "Hell" idea, which is totally different and Pagan.

In other words it is incorrect to translate Hades - as "Hell."


They are two totally different concepts.



*

 

[Desert Snake]

In other words it is incorrect to translate Hades - as "Hell."


They are two totally different concepts.



*

Nope, when you take Christian Hell and try to equate it for language purposes to Greek, Hades is pretty good.



Hades is like a toned down version of our Hell, it isn't Heaven that's for sure.
Btw, I agree with Clear on his comments regarding Hell, neither of us are saying it is exactly like the "Hell" you are now describing, but it is close enough to where we understand what 'Hades' means. Early Christians reading the texts would understand the concept of Hades, especially in a 'punishment' context.

The thing is, we aren't talking about European hell ideas, we are talking about Christian Hell, originally. We can assume the term means what we think it means.

 

[Clear]

Ingledsva :

You are simply repeating your claim that “the christians interpret incorrectly” while Christians remind the Jews that “the jews do not know the truth about death” and thus "interpret incorrectly". You are again involved in endless and mindless repetitions of a position without adequate support.

When the Christian John Chrysostom was involved in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew, Chrysostom reminded Trypho the Jew that because the Jews had failed to follow God’s commands and had misinterpreted scriptures and had apostatized from the gospel they were given, God had removed Prophets and Prophetic gifts from them and that such gifts had passed over to the Christians who yet had revelation and prophets among them. That is, the Jews WERE already an apostate religion, teaching apostate doctrines with apostate practices. Jesus was trying to teach them to repent and learn to correct their errors, both doctrinal and practices.


IF the original Christian movement actually was characterized by prophetic revelation from God, directing them as to true doctrine and true practice, then the early Christians had the right to correct Jewish misunderstandings and apostasy from authentic religion. That is, in this context, it is the JEWS who perverted authentic doctrines and practices, and Christianity was a return to more correct religion. You are, in this context, simply repeating an apostate, incorrect doctrine and suggesting we christians adopt your apostate religion.


If your premise is that your personal and modern Jewish concept of Sheol is true, provide us with some DATA, some proof to believe that your concept is true.


If your premise is that the early Christian concept of Hades as a way-station for spirits after death while they await resurrection is incorrect, then provide us with some DATA, as to why your interpretation on this concept is correct.


If your premise is that the later Christian concept of Hades as a fiery place of torture where individuals are created and tortured forever in an indiscriminant manner simply because they did not believe in Jesus, nor were given the choice to believe, is incorrect, then argue against that (and I’ll agree with you).

Make a CLEAR, FIRM, LOGICAL, AND RATIONAL PREMISE AS TO WHAT IT IS YOU ARE TRYING TO PROVE TO THE FORUM. This repetitive insistence that “Hades” / Hell, doesn’t exist in Christian texts and it’s theology simply serves to make you look like you are “quirky” and you lose credibility, since it has already been proven to them that hades/hell DOES exist in Christian texts and within it’s theology. It simply disagrees with your theory.


For example, My context is that the early Christians viewed Judaism as already having apostatized from authentic religion which was characterized by revelation to mankind. The early Christians were trying to CORRECT Jewish misunderstandings regarding conditions after death as well as spread their own doctrinal traditions. In this context, you need to abandon your perverted and apostate theories and accept the corrected view of things, including the earliest Christian wordlviews of hades (rather than your caricurature of what you think the christian view is...)


katzpur - I'm leaving work and am traveling for the next few days, will be in and out of touch with internet but will get back to you on a comment later.


Clear

 

[Ingledsva]

Ingledsva :

You are simply repeating your claim that “the christians interpret incorrectly” while Christians remind the Jews that “the jews do not know the truth about death” and thus "interpret incorrectly". You are again involved in endless and mindless repetitions of a position without adequate support.


ING - Actually I said early Christians with "Hades" had it correct - the later Christians with Pagan contact turn Sheol/Grave/Hades into a torture chamber for sinners - AFTER JUDGMENT.

That - after judgment - is important - for if you go back and look you will see that several of those verses (from you, that I put up) mention Hades/grave - BEFORE judgment. That clinches that it means grave, holding - and NOT the after Judgment Hell.


When the Christian John Chrysostom was involved in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew, Chrysostom reminded Trypho the Jew that because the Jews had failed to follow God’s commands and had misinterpreted scriptures and had apostatized from the gospel they were given, God had removed Prophets and Prophetic gifts from them and that such gifts had passed over to the Christians who yet had revelation and prophets among them. That is, the Jews WERE already an apostate religion, teaching apostate doctrines with apostate practices. Jesus was trying to teach them to repent and learn to correct their errors, both doctrinal and practices.


ING - Which has no meaning for me. I'm not a Christian. And I might add, "that opinion," was coming from a Christian. Thus it is not necessarily a true condition of the Jews.


IF the original Christian movement actually was characterized by prophetic revelation from God, directing them as to true doctrine and true practice, then the early Christians had the right to correct Jewish misunderstandings and apostasy from authentic religion. That is, in this context, it is the JEWS who perverted authentic doctrines and practices, and Christianity was a return to more correct religion. You are, in this context, simply repeating an apostate, incorrect doctrine and suggesting we christians adopt your apostate religion.


Again - Christian opinion. That does not necessarily make it true. Christians obviously had an agenda as a new religious offshoot.


If your premise is that your personal and modern Jewish concept of Sheol is true, provide us with some DATA, some proof to believe that your concept is true.


ING - Sheol/Grave/holding place before judgment - is not new. It is the actual meaning of Sheol.

"It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp. ib. xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31)...."

SHEOL - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Take a look.


If your premise is that the early Christian concept of Hades as a way-station for spirits after death while they await resurrection is incorrect, then provide us with some DATA, as to why your interpretation on this concept is correct.


ING - No. Awaiting judgment. Your idea that the first Christians - THAT WERE JEWS - somehow didn't have the concepts of their religious upbringing - is ridiculous.

Here again is one of the verses YOU posted - with HELL in red.

It is talking about being at the heights/power and being brought down to the GRAVE.

You missed context in the previous sentence.


Luke 10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven (the heights/power), shalt be thrust down to hell (hades - Sheol - the grave.)

This verse alone shows that this "Hades" is the Sheol/grave/holding concept. It is not the after judgment - later -Hell concept.

They compare them to Tyre and Sidon - whom as noted - are waiting in the GRAVE for judgment!

They are not put in Hell - just as Tyre and Sidon - are NOT! They wait in their SHEOL - for the Judgment - Just as the Jewish texts tell us.

If your premise is that the later Christian concept of Hades as a fiery place of torture where individuals are created and tortured forever in an indiscriminant manner simply because they did not believe in Jesus, nor were given the choice to believe, is incorrect, then argue against that (and I’ll agree with you).


ING - You need to rephrase that one.


Make a CLEAR, FIRM, LOGICAL, AND RATIONAL PREMISE AS TO WHAT IT IS YOU ARE TRYING TO PROVE TO THE FORUM. This repetitive insistence that “Hades” / Hell, doesn’t exist in Christian texts and it’s theology simply serves to make you look like you are “quirky” and you lose credibility, since it has already been proven to them that hades/hell DOES exist in Christian texts and within it’s theology. It simply disagrees with your theory.


ING - I already have.

Also I said it doesn't exist in the NT. The torture fiery Hell concept obviously came into vogue after Pagan contact. "Most" Christians claim all sinners are going there.


For example, My context is that the early Christians viewed Judaism as already having apostatized from authentic religion which was characterized by revelation to mankind. The early Christians were trying to CORRECT Jewish misunderstandings regarding conditions after death as well as spread their own doctrinal traditions. In this context, you need to abandon your perverted and apostate theories and accept the corrected view of things, including the earliest Christian wordlviews of hades (rather than your caricurature of what you think the christian view is...)


ING - LOL! May I suggest you read Biblical Archaeology Review, and old copies of BIBLE REVIEW.

Look for an article called - AFTERLIFE, Ancient Israel's Changing Vision Of The World Beyond. Volume IV #1


katzpur - I'm leaving work and am traveling for the next few days, will be in and out of touch with internet but will get back to you on a comment later.


Clear

Have a good time - I'll still be here when you get back.



*

 

[Ingledsva]

Oops, don't know what happened here. LOL!

 

[Clear]

POST ONE OF THREE

Clear requested Ingledsva to : “Make a CLEAR, FIRM, LOGICAL, AND RATIONAL PREMISE AS TO WHAT IT IS YOU ARE TRYING TO PROVE TO THE FORUM.”

Ingledsva, I honestly thought your last post (#1490) was quite wonderful. It was the best type of post you’ve offered us so far. It was MUCH more clear as to your position. It had better logic than prior posts and was much more rational and contained some data that formed a much better basis for discussion. THANK YOU.

If you can continue to be as clear and logical and rational, (and I can attempt the same) we can communicate much more efficiently. Also, when you communicate that clearly, I can tell where my own misunderstandings of your theological position occur.



1) REGARDING THE EXISTENCE OF HELL/HADES IN THE TEXT VERSUS THE MEANING OF HELL/HADES IN CHRISTIAN TRADITION

A) Regarding the EXISTENCE of Hell/hades in the texts.

As I have shown, the word hades (translated as "hell") exists both in Old testament (LXX) and in New Testament texts in multiple example. This specific fact is indisputable. If you read greek then you and I already agree on this fact.

Thus, disciple is certainly correct that the word hades / hell exists in both old and new testament texts and the New Testament text places hades / hell into the mouth of Jesus. It is the word that Christians apply a meaning to. The meaning different Christians apply to this term is NOT the same in all Christian movements. For example, I do not know how disciple is applying the term, but I agree with him that it existed in both old and New Testaments and it is the word that is translated as "hell" in sacred texts. I also very much agree that the term does not ONLY mean "hell" but differs according to context.

Because you kept arguing against the EXISTENCE OF hades/hell in the text, I, (and probably others) assumed you were simply arguing against an obvious fact that the word "hades/hell" existed. You seem to admit that hades (Christian “hell&#8221 exists in the texts but what you seem to WANT to disagree about is the MEANING OFhades/hell in the text.


B) Regarding the MEANING of Hell/hades in the texts

Ingledsva clarifies her position : Actually I said early Christians with "Hades" had it correct”
Your clarification places us in agreement on this point. I think the earliest Christian doctrine was much more logical and rational and superior to modern Christian doctrine. I apologize if I misunderstood your position on this point.



Ingledsva elaborated further : “… the later Christians with Pagan contact turn Sheol/Grave/Hades into a torture chamber for sinners - AFTER JUDGMENT.

If I understand you correctly, we actually agree very closely on this point as well.

If I understand you correctly, you agree that there is a place for spirit/souls “after judgment”, but it is not “a torture chamber for sinners”?

If so, then on this point I very much agree regarding the earliest historical use of the term "Hades"/hell. A form of Hades / Hell exists, but it is not a "fiery torture chamber for sinners" that it became in later Christian tradition. Is this your clarified position? If so, we are still in agreement and you are in agreement with early Christian tradition (if my history is correct.).

Ingledsva clarified further : That - after judgment - is important - for if you go back and look you will see that several of those verses (from you, that I put up) mention Hades/grave - BEFORE judgment. That clinches that it means grave, holding - and NOT the after Judgment Hell.

In this specific point you are also (again) agreeing with early Christianity in this specific historical context.

That is, early Christian did refer to the time period between death and resurrection as “hades”. For example, In the Christian decensus literature, the place that Jesus visits during the three days when his body is in the tomb and his spirit goes to “hades” to visit the spirits/souls there (and Judgment has not yet taken place).



Clear said : When the Christian John Chrysostom was involved in his dialogue with Trypho the Jew, Chrysostom reminded Trypho the Jew that because the Jews had failed to follow God’s commands and had misinterpreted scriptures and had apostatized from the gospel they were given, God had removed Prophets and Prophetic gifts from them and that such gifts had passed over to the Christians who yet had revelation and prophets among them. That is, the Jews WERE already an apostate religion, teaching apostate doctrines with apostate practices. Jesus was trying to teach them to repent and learn to correct their errors, both doctrinal and practices.

Ingledsva responded : - Which has no meaning for me. I'm not a Christian. And I might add, "that opinion," was coming from a Christian. Thus it is not necessarily a true condition of the Jews.

As you know, the Jews were not monolithic, but they had multiple splinter groups with varying conflicting doctrines just as Christianity has now, and due, partly to their constant tendency to apostasy, had lost prophetic revelation (i.e. the Jews had lost the privilege of having prophets guiding them and producing scripture), they lost their priesthood (rabbis were not priests and had no priesthood), the Jews had lost their temple (there were no longer Jewish temples in either Jerusalem, elephantine, or leontopolis), etc. God did not restore these things to them for his own reasons.

My point was that, just as Christianity evolved and changed over time, early Judaism also evolved and changed and apostatized episodically. For example, you and I agree that the use of "hades" changed from early to late christianity. Similarly, the Jews also had certain doctrines which changed.

The way it affects modern Jews is the same way it affects all other religions : Jewish doctrinal opinions generally come from the type of Judaism Jews have been exposed to and subsequently have adopted. (Sometimes, the religion we are exposed to upon birth is “luck of the draw&#8221. In the same way that Christians often adopt a christianity that has little specific resemblance to early Christianity (e.g. "hell"), your specific Jewish theory may have no more connection to the most correct authentic and historical Judaism than modern Christian movements have to early, authentic, historical Christianity.

Pharisees and Sadducees and Essenes, the Priests, and other splinter Jewish groups were all “Jewish”; all often used the same or similar base texts of the Pentateuch, yet their doctrines conflicted significantly. A Pharisee believed their Judaism was correct, so did the Sadducee. Your specific Judaism may not be the same as early, authentic, "orthodox" judaism. If the copper scroll is genuine, then Essenic Judaism may best represent Jewish Temple orthodoxy. My historical area of interest lies outside of these areas, but the principles hold true. Also, I am NOT claiming you ARE consciously adopting "apostate" judaism, but that modern Judaism is not the same as early Judaism in certain aspects just as modern Christianity is not the same as early Christianity.



Clear said : IF the original Christian movement actually was characterized by prophetic revelation from God, directing them as to true doctrine and true practice, then the early Christians had the right to correct Jewish misunderstandings and apostasy from authentic religion. That is, in this context, it is the JEWS who perverted authentic doctrines and practices, and Christianity was a return to more correct religion. You are, in this context, simply repeating an apostate, incorrect doctrine and suggesting we christians adopt your apostate religion.

Ingledsva responded : Again - Christian opinion. That does not necessarily make it true. Christians obviously had an agenda as a new religious offshoot.

I agree that even a religion that actually did have authentic prophets of God directing it, would still have “an agenda” , even if that "agenda" was the salvation of mankind, or another agenda.

But IF God was guiding that prophet and that prophet disagreed with common Jewish opinion, then the authentic prophet of God would have a right to correct the Jewish opinion to become in line with God's will and God's instruction. This was the position the early Christians felt they were in.

Thus when Jesus referred to a Jewish tradition as being incorrect, IF he was receiving revelation from God, then his correction of ancient jewish agendas had divine authority to correct the Jews.

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

 

[Clear]

POST TWO OF TWO


Ingledsva clarifies regarding “sheol/Grave/holding place before judgment” : Sheol/Grave/holding place before judgment - is not new. It is the actual meaning of Sheol. "It connotes the place where those that had died were believed to be congregated. Jacob, refusing to be comforted at the supposed death of Joseph, exclaims: "I shall go down to my son a mourner unto Sheol" (Gen. xxxvii. 36, Hebr.; comp. ib. xlii. 38; xliv. 29, 31)...."

Thank you for the clarification : I agree that hades/sheol/grave/the pit/hold place/parking garage/spirit world/the place in the middle. All of these terms (and more), may mean the place where the spirits of those who died congregate (regardless of where their body remains)

So how is your Jewish definition of “Sheol/Grave/holding place” DIFFERENT than the early Christian belief in “Sheol/Grave/holding place” where cognisant spirits await judgment and resurrection?

Once you USE hades/sheol in this Christian context, I cannot tell how it is different than the early Christian use of the term.

For example, the Christian decensus literature describes Jesus’ going down into Hades/Sheol/Grave/holding place before judgment and speaking to those who are in hades as John the baptist is teaching them and Jesus bringing the dead out of this place unto the resurrection of many of them.



Ingledsva said regarding Hell : “Also I said it doesn't exist in the NT. The torture fiery Hell concept obviously came into vogue after Pagan contact. "Most" Christians claim all sinners are going there.

I understand this clarification better. I and others (in comments to me) had mis-understood that your claim that hades'hell not existing meant what it seemed to say (i.e. that it doesn't EXIST).

While “hades” obviously DOES exist in the NT, you actually seem to be claiming that the term “hades”/hell DOES exist in the NT, but that it did not have the same MEANING in the New Testament that “most” Christians apply to it nowadays. In this, we are in agreement.


Ingledsva, again, I think your last post was very much improved. I am also glad to find some areas of agreement rather than the constant petty disagreement.

thank you.


Clear

 

[Ingledsva]

I decided to show all of his posted NT verses - and show that the correct translation of Hades is Sheol - grave/pit/holding place - BEFORE JUDGMENT, - and NOT after judgment - like the later HELL idea.

*

# 18 Luke 10:15 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

It is talking about being at the heights/power and being brought down to the GRAVE.

You missed context in the previous sentence.


Luke 10:14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.

Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven (the heights/power), shalt be thrust down to HADES - (Sheol - the grave.)


This verse alone shows that this "Hades" is the Sheol/grave/holding concept.


It is not the after judgment - later -Hell concept.

They compare them to Tyre and Sidon - whom as noted - are waiting in the GRAVE for judgment!

They are not put in Hell - just as Tyre and Sidon - are NOT! They wait in their SHEOL - for the Judgment - Just as the Jewish texts tell us.


*

#19 Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


"In the Holy Bible, the expression "the Bosom of Abraham" is found only in two verses of St. Luke's Gospel (16:22-23). It occurs in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus the imagery of which is plainly drawn from the popular representations of the unseen world of the dead which were current in Our Lord's time. According to the Jewish conceptions of that day, the souls of the dead were gathered into a general tarrying-place the Sheol of the Old Testament literature, and the Hades of the New Testament writings (cf. Luke 16:22; in the Greek 16:23). A local discrimination, however, existed among them, according to their deeds during their mortal life." Catholic Encyclopedia

The idea was that all went to Sheol - but they had a kind of line up - according to holiness in life.

Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luke 16:23 And being in HADES (the grave/holding place) raised his eyes, (huparcho) being at the (basanos) bottom, to see the Abraam far above in the distance, and Lazaros in the bosom of him.

Luke 16:24 And he called out saying, "Father Abraam have compassion for me, and send Lazaros that he might moisten the end of his finger in water and refresh my tongue, because I am tormented by this burning (intense yearning.)"

"In the bosom of Abraham," is a colloquialism meaning to be invited to the best table. They are all in "holding" awaiting judgment, - but for his good - Lazaros is at the "top" table, Their positions have switched - and the "Rich Man" finds himself far from the table - at the bottom - looking up - INTENSELY YEARNING - to be closer to God - at the judgment.


*

# 20 - Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

-

Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in HADES , neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


*


# 21 Revelations 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death

-

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of HADES (Sheol/grave/HOLDING place) and of death.


Remember Jesus going to those souls in Sheol?


1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in holding;

Eph 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?


*

# 22 Revelations 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth

-

Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and they of HADES followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?


*

# 23 Revelations 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works


Did you miss that - the dead were delivered up - THEN judged?


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and HADES grave/holding place delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


SO - then HADES/SHOEL/graves/HOLDING place - give up their DEAD - THEN THEY ARE JUDGED - and THEN the SECOND DEATH.

*

SO - as you folks can see - Greek HADES should be translated - SHEOL/grave/pit/holding place - and NOT the erroneous - later - English translation hell, which is a place of punishment for those - already-JUDGED - evil.



*

 

[Nymphs]

150 pages of arguments -- nobody proving one way or the others.

Thread was started in 2007?

Huh.

 

[Clear]

POST ONE OF TWO

Hi disciple :

This is a very, very interesting situation regarding Ingledsva's point and hades. Though she is overstating the strength of her position, still, can I make a point:


1) HADES AS “THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE”

It’s always been apparent to historians that Hades often means the place between death and judgment/resurrection. However, her suggestion that references to hades ALWAYS means this “place in the middle” and never is associated with the principle of the final punishment of those who do evil is new to me. Regardless of the fact that I've not heard this before, it raises some interesting contextual points historically.

Early Judeo-christian textual descriptions of Christian belief are often disorienting for individuals who start to study them, partly because there are so many terms that are used for the same principle. For example, descriptions of the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment is described by many terms in early texts.

Both texts and translators of various early texts use many words to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, sometimes "HELL" is used. Occasionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion in terms. For example, instead of Hades, other terms have also been used to describe this same place in different contexts.

The description that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. (i.e. it refers to the gardens OUTSIDE of the kings castle, and not inside his dwelling). The different terms for the same place or principle create confusing contexts and interpretations.

For example, this ancient meaning of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that he would “be with me in paradise” (luke 23:43). In this context, It was not “heaven” Dymas the thief was promised, but it was “paradise”, which, in this case was also the place between corruptible mortality and judgement.

In a similar context, it was said, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip) All who leave mortality through death enter the place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc. (or whatever other term a text or person uses)

The “complainer” Ezra also uses the same term when he remarks to Jesus in a vision, regarding the end of his (the prophet Ezras’) life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ez 7:1). The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he himself had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4).

This refers to Jesus descensus as a spirit into this middle place while his body remained in the tomb before resurrection. But more on this later.



2) ALL WHO DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD (THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE)

In this ancient Christian theology, all souls, including the Patriarchs and prophets, upon dying, have their spirits placed into this spirit world. Quote : “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)

“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .

“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15) Though he uses the word, "paradise", it is this place in the middle that he is actually referring to.

I very much agree with Ingledsva ON THE SPECIFIC POINT THAT none of these references refer to a "Hell" that individuals may be sent to after the Judgment, and that Hades was a name for this "spirit world"; i.e. the "place in the middle".



3) CONDITIONS IN HADES VARY ACCORDING TO THE MORAL CHARACTER OF THE PERSON WHO INHABITS IT

Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. For the righteous, it was pleasant, for those who were evil, it was a prison of sorts. This partly explains it's association with punishment....

Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous). Since the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage of sorts, was often referred to as a "prison" in early textual references.


In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown in his vision that this middle place has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel : ”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)

Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Sheol itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.

In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)

The point is that for the righteous, this world of spirits was not particularly unpleasant but for the unrighteous it was a place of some distress. It is this variable nature of Hades which allows it to acquire multiple names such as "paradise" AND "prison".



4) SOULS IN HADES WERE COGNISANT AND COMMUNICATIVE AND KEPT THEIR OWN IDENTITY AND PERSONALITIES

In this early Christian doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they were cognizant and communicate and still had free will.

For example : Enoch, in his vision of Hades/Sheol, describes those there who are still teaching moral law to others : “Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)

post two of two follows

 

[Clear]

POST TWO OF THREE

5) THE DESCENT OF JESUS CHRIST INTO HADES
The descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.

For example, One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the resurrected Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”

In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : "I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)


The early Christian Gospel of Nicodemus, text contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there.

For example, Matthew 27:52 observes that after Jesus resurrected, the graves of many of the saints opened and the bodies of many individuals who had died were also resurrected with Jesus and these individuals went to Jerusalem and appeared to many others. IF something like this happened, one would expect diaries and literature that both reported and described it. Thus, early christian literature describes this happening and conditions in hades as well.

Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :

“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)

These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeon (who were NOT Christians while they were alive). These two had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).

“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)

I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the other souls the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel and many other spirits are also “called to testify” and teach gospel truths to the others in the spirit world.

The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”

Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen. Anyone who heard this preaching could both understand it and accept or reject it.

As added confusion, the angel who is presiding over hades in it's context of a holding place from which the are taken, one angel presiding over hades in it's context as "prison" is actually called Hades.

In chapter four, Satan adjures "Hades" to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.

The sons of Symeon, speaking of Jesus, continue to relate that : Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “

Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify : All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)

(I HAD A POST SCRIPT. DUE TO TEXTUAL LIMITS, I CUT FROM THIS POST AND RE-POSTED AFTER INGLEDSVAS' POST #1498)

 

[Ingledsva]

POST TWO OF TWO


...


Obviously, there is an entire genre of early judeo-christian literature that describes their traditions concerning hades as the place after death and before resurrection / judgment, and that this place was described, using multiple terms besides hades. However, Ingledsvas' claim that Hades ALWAYS means this place, (given the confusion of terms) is actually quite intriguing to me and so I’ll spend some time looking it over. I appreciate the new context to consider as I review texts and early history. Though Ingledsva and I have (obviously) had disagreement, still, the parallels here intriguing and I do not want to dismiss any legitimate connections. Let me look at this in this context and think about it.

Clear
φυτωνετωακω

And do I hear an Amen?


I think everyone else is saying it after this many pages. lol.



PS. I couldn't post the whole page as it was 101 over the limit.
*

 

[Clear]

post three of three


Obviously, there is an entire genre of early judeo-christian literature that describes their traditions concerning hades as the place after death and before resurrection / judgment, and that this place was described, using multiple terms besides hades. The various different terms applied to both Hades and to other things, can be confusing and it is only the context that often determines what the term is meaning.

However, Ingledsvas' claim that Hades ALWAYS means this place, (given the confusion of terms) is actually quite intriguing to me and so I’ll spend some time looking it over. I appreciate the new context to consider as I review texts and early history. Though Ingledsva and I have (obviously) had disagreement, still, the parallels here intriguing and I do not want to dismiss any legitimate connections. Let me look at this in this context and think about it.

Clear
φυτωνετωακω


As a Post Scrip (that I cannot add to post #2 due to text limits) I thought I’d add just a bit of context to Christ’s decensus and Hades and it's oblique association with punishment (but NOT as a place of fiery torture&#8230

While I’ve had little historical interest in the modern Christian theory of hell as a place of fiery torture, (since my interest was in early Christian Doctrines instead of modern Christian theories), even a quick survey of early Christian traditions and teachings show some association of Hades with unpleasantness for the evil and I have wondered if it was this specific association that was augmented into “hell fire” and the “torturous burning” of later Christianity?

For example, in referring to this spirit world /hades, the LDS are fond of pointing out that John 5:25-29 speaks of this decensus saying : “The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live…. for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:25-29).

While this refers to the visit of Jesus' spirit to hades (during the three days while his body lay in the tomb), though tradition points out that Hades, as a spirit world, has some unpleasant aspects, still, it is NOT the same phenomenon as the judgment (as Inglesdva correctly pointed out).

In reference to this decensus of Jesus into Hades that John 5:25-29 describes , Jesus said :“Sheol saw me and was shattered, and Death ejected me and many with me. 12 I have been vinegar and bitterness to it, and I went down with it as far as its depth. 13 Then the feet and the head it released, because it was not able to endure my face. 14 And I made a congregation of living among his dead; and I spoke with them by living lips; in order that my word may not fail. And those who had died ran toward me; and they cried out and said, “Son of God, have pity on us. “And deal with us according to your kindness, and bring us out from the chains of darkness. “And open for us the door by which we may go forth to you, for we perceive that our death does not approach you. Odes of Solomon #42 vs 10-17

IF this early christian context of Hades is correct, (that is, these individuals may not exit or progress on to heaven without Jesus opening the door for them), then it also makes sense that Hades was described as a “prison” of sorts. Thus, the apostle Peter described the decensus of Jesus’ preaching to these dead spirits as being in a “prison” : “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" 1 Pet 3:18-19;

The early associations of this spirit world and it's “chains of darkness” and it's description as a “prison” are descriptive of some degree of an association with captivity, perhaps simply because they cannot, of their own power and will, escape from this situation without the assistance of a redeemer. One can see why Hades acquired a negative association from an early period…

For example, the apostolic Father Polycarp (a writing written from the time when the author could have known an apostle) discusses hades with some negative context, speaking of the “…Lord Jesus Christ, who endured for our sins, facing even death, “whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of Hades.” Polycarp to Phillipians 1:2 In such descriptions, these “pangs” are not specific punishments. Rather, these pangs seem to be self-inflicted longings more than any punishment placed upon them by God.

Even when these “pangs of Hades” are placed into the context of “torments”, such “torments” still seem to be due to an increasing self-awareness of lost opportunity and profound regret.

The prophet Ezra describes these “pangs of Hades” felt by some of its inhabitants thusly : “79 And if it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his Law, and who have hated those who fear God – 80 such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, ever grieving and sad, in seven ways. 81 The first way, because they have scorned the Law of the Most High. The second way, because they cannot now make a good repentance that they may live. The third way, they shall see the reward laid up for those who have trusted the covenants of the Most High. The forth way, they shall consider the torment laid up for themselves in the last days. The fifth way, they shall see how the habitations of the others are guarded by angels in profound quiet. The sixth way, they shall see how some of them will pass over into torments. The seventh way, which is worse than all the ways that have been mentioned, because they shall utterly waste away in confusion and be consumed with shame, and shall wither with fear at seeing the glory of the Most High before whom they sinned while they were alive, and before whom they are to be judged in the last times.” Fourth Book of Ezra 7; 75-87;

The base doctrine is that there is some discomfort for those who experience these profound regrets and torments, but they are not a “torture” placed upon them by some external power, but are, in the main, “self-inflicted” torments. Some of the confusion occurs because there is a judgment placed upon these spirits, else they could not be separated from one another based on moral characteristics, the righteous from the unrighteous.

Such traditions are woven into early Christian textual traditions. For example, Clements introduction begins thusly : “Diphilus the comic poet says the following about the judgment: “ : ...“And we believe there are two paths in Hades, one for the just, the other for the impious, even if the earth forever covers both. For if just and unjust will have one end, go off and rob, seal, plunder, act in rage. Make no mistake. There is, even in Hades, judgment, which God, the Lord of all, will execute,...” Fragments of Pseudo-Greek Poets

Whether Jewish Haggadah is correct in it’s “seven divisions” or fragments is correct in it’s “two divisions”. The base point is that there are various descriptions of Hades, depending upon the context and characteristic the texts are describing. It can be confusing.

My point is that the earliest descriptions of Hades / hell /sheol / the pit/the spirit world / etc. etc. was not a simple concept and the early Christians had detailed descriptions of this place. The concepts adopted by later splinter Christian groups would have been affected by specific and varied descriptions as well as the PORTION of the tradition they heard about and subsequently adopted.

Clear


p.s. the LDS will recognize very, very, very obvious and familiar themes in these historical descriptions of Hades / the world of spirits / sheol, etc. I hope you recognize what this means, as well as the tremendous value of having returned to these early doctrines.
φυδρτζτζτω

 

[Ingledsva]

post three of three


Obviously, there is an entire genre of early judeo-christian literature that describes their traditions concerning hades as the place after death and before resurrection / judgment, and that this place was described, using multiple terms besides hades. The various different terms applied to both Hades and to other things, can be confusing and it is only the context that often determines what the term is meaning.

However, Ingledsvas' claim that Hades ALWAYS means this place, (given the confusion of terms) is actually quite intriguing to me and so I’ll spend some time looking it over. I appreciate the new context to consider as I review texts and early history. Though Ingledsva and I have (obviously) had disagreement, still, the parallels here intriguing and I do not want to dismiss any legitimate connections. Let me look at this in this context and think about it.

Clear
φυτωνετωακω


ING - I don't for the life of me understand why you can't just say Ingledsva was right about what the Bible, and the verses I (Clear) posted, that we were discussing, say.

Instead we get this - which again - is so long - that to answer it - I have to split it into two posts.


*

As a Post Scrip (that I cannot add to post #2 due to text limits) I thought I’d add just a bit of context to Christ’s decensus and Hades and it's oblique association with punishment (but NOT as a place of fiery torture…)

While I’ve had little historical interest in the modern Christian theory of hell as a place of fiery torture, (since my interest was in early Christian Doctrines instead of modern Christian theories), even a quick survey of early Christian traditions and teachings show some association of Hades with unpleasantness for the evil and I have wondered if it was this specific association that was augmented into “hell fire” and the “torturous burning” of later Christianity?

For example, in referring to this spirit world /hades, the LDS are fond of pointing out that John 5:25-29 speaks of this decensus saying : “The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live…. for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:25-29).

While this refers to the visit of Jesus' spirit to hades (during the three days while his body lay in the tomb), though tradition points out that Hades, as a spirit world, has some unpleasant aspects, still, it is NOT the same phenomenon as the judgment (as Inglesdva correctly pointed out).

In reference to this decensus of Jesus into Hades that John 5:25-29 describes , Jesus said :“Sheol saw me and was shattered, and Death ejected me and many with me. 12 I have been vinegar and bitterness to it, and I went down with it as far as its depth. 13 Then the feet and the head it released, because it was not able to endure my face. 14 And I made a congregation of living among his dead; and I spoke with them by living lips; in order that my word may not fail. And those who had died ran toward me; and they cried out and said, “Son of God, have pity on us. “And deal with us according to your kindness, and bring us out from the chains of darkness. “And open for us the door by which we may go forth to you, for we perceive that our death does not approach you. Odes of Solomon #42 vs 10-17

IF this early christian context of Hades is correct, (that is, these individuals may not exit or progress on to heaven without Jesus opening the door for them), then it also makes sense that Hades was described as a “prison” of sorts. Thus, the apostle Peter described the decensus of Jesus’ preaching to these dead spirits as being in a “prison” : “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" 1 Pet 3:18-19;

The early associations of this spirit world and it's “chains of darkness” and it's description as a “prison” are descriptive of some degree of an association with captivity, perhaps simply because they cannot, of their own power and will, escape from this situation without the assistance of a redeemer. One can see why Hades acquired a negative association from an early period…


ING - First let me say that Odes of Solomon is mid 2nd-3rd centuries.

The idea behind Sheol - and the reason no one could escape from it, - was because it was the holding place of "ALL" the dead, - until the awaited Messiah did what he was supposed to do - bringing the end. At that point they would each be individually JUDGED - and the evil ones would be totally annihilated - the second death, along with Sheol. The fact that this end didn't come with Jesus, is one of the reasons Jews don't accept Jesus as their awaited Messiah.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


The word being translated as "fire" is related to the word for a metal worker's refining fire. The dross is destroyed.

I guess that means sinners are worthless imperfections that are totally destroyed in the refining fire.

Rev 1:15 And the feet they, in like manner (homoios,) blazed brilliant white (chalkalibanon,) as in a furnace being refined (puroo) and the voice as in the manner of water, great.


*

For example, the apostolic Father Polycarp (a writing written from the time when the author could have known an apostle) discusses hades with some negative context, speaking of the “…Lord Jesus Christ, who endured for our sins, facing even death, “whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of Hades.” Polycarp to Phillipians 1:2 In such descriptions, these “pangs” are not specific punishments. Rather, these pangs seem to be self-inflicted longings more than any punishment placed upon them by God.

Even when these “pangs of Hades” are placed into the context of “torments”, such “torments” still seem to be due to an increasing self-awareness of lost opportunity and profound regret.


ING - Indeed - as I showed - that is what it actually says in the "Bosom of Abraham" story.


*

The prophet Ezra describes these “pangs of Hades” felt by some of its inhabitants thusly : “79 And if it is one of those who have shown scorn and have not kept the way of the Most High, and who have despised his Law, and who have hated those who fear God – 80 such spirits shall not enter into habitations, but shall immediately wander about in torments, ever grieving and sad, in seven ways. 81 The first way, because they have scorned the Law of the Most High. The second way, because they cannot now make a good repentance that they may live. The third way, they shall see the reward laid up for those who have trusted the covenants of the Most High. The forth way, they shall consider the torment laid up for themselves in the last days. The fifth way, they shall see how the habitations of the others are guarded by angels in profound quiet. The sixth way, they shall see how some of them will pass over into torments. The seventh way, which is worse than all the ways that have been mentioned, because they shall utterly waste away in confusion and be consumed with shame, and shall wither with fear at seeing the glory of the Most High before whom they sinned while they were alive, and before whom they are to be judged in the last times.” Fourth Book of Ezra 7; 75-87;


ING - He went a little overboard in his OPINION here.

The Fourth Book of Ezra was written around 90-100 AD, in response to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.


*

ING - Had to split again - part 1.



*

 

[Ingledsva]

ING - Part 2 -

The Fourth Book of Ezra was written around 90-100 AD, in response to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70.[/B]



*

The base doctrine is that there is some discomfort for those who experience these profound regrets and torments, but they are not a “torture” placed upon them by some external power, but are, in the main, “self-inflicted” torments. Some of the confusion occurs because there is a judgment placed upon these spirits, else they could not be separated from one another based on moral characteristics, the righteous from the unrighteous.


ING - Pretty much correct, - except that they aren't separated. The idea is that they have - by their own actions - placed themselves where they are - in a lineup - with the good closer to God, - and the bad far from God, grieving that their actions have placed them so far from God.


*

Such traditions are woven into early Christian textual traditions. For example, Clements introduction begins thusly : “Diphilus the comic poet says the following about the judgment: “ : ...“And we believe there are two paths in Hades, one for the just, the other for the impious, even if the earth forever covers both. For if just and unjust will have one end, go off and rob, seal, plunder, act in rage. Make no mistake. There is, even in Hades, judgment, which God, the Lord of all, will execute,...” Fragments of Pseudo-Greek Poets


ING - He is actually alluding to the fact that two types - god and evil - are in Sheol.

"Make no mistake. There is, even in Hades, judgment[/U], which God, the Lord of all, will execute."

This is merely pointing out the obvious. Those that entered with sin - still have the sin - and feel their anguish at what they have done to themselves, - and which God will JUDGE and execute, at the end.


*

Whether Jewish Haggadah is correct in it’s “seven divisions” or fragments is correct in it’s “two divisions”. The base point is that there are various descriptions of Hades, depending upon the context and characteristic the texts are describing. It can be confusing.


Ing - The earliest parts of Jewish Haggadah is around 170 C.E. - and way up from there.



My point is that the earliest descriptions of Hades / hell /sheol / the pit/the spirit world / etc. etc. was not a simple concept and the early Christians had detailed descriptions of this place. The concepts adopted by later splinter Christian groups would have been affected by specific and varied descriptions as well as the PORTION of the tradition they heard about and subsequently adopted.

Clear


p.s. the LDS will recognize very, very, very obvious and familiar themes in these historical descriptions of Hades / the world of spirits / sheol, etc. I hope you recognize what this means, as well as the tremendous value of having returned to these early doctrines.
φυδρτζτζτω
[/SIZE][/FONT]

Actually the early - and accepted - written info - is pretty clear on what Sheol is.

These ideas only changed with time.

And the "later" Christian idea of sinners being judged and "then" going to a "Fiery Torturing Hell" idea - isn't even there.

This Hell idea came in very late.


According to the Bible they find themselves - after Sheol/Hades - being Judged - and cast into a refining fire - thus meaning total annihilation, and not the mistranslated/misunderstood, - torture of a "Hell" fire.[/quote]


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[Clear]

Ingledsva said : I don't for the life of me understand why you can't just say Ingledsva was right about what the Bible, and the verses I (Clear) posted, that we were discussing, say.

1)If you remember, this discussion started out with disciples claim that Hades/hell existed in the biblical text. You were incorrect and he was correct. You never admitted disciple was correct. It is completely hypocritical for you to ask for recognition for yourself that you are unwilling to give to another.

2) If you remember, instead of simply agreeing with me that spirits of men existed before birth, you did not just say “Clear was right about pre-mortal existence of spirits of mankind”. Why ask for recognition you are unwilling to give another person.

3) You have been incorrect about so many of your “proof”s in the past that your track record has not been stellar. Remember when you tried to “translate” the greek of enoch and told the forum that the “evil spirits” were the spirits of mankind? Also, you never admitted your translation was faulty. Why the desperate desire for recognition that you may not deserve? You never told me my correction was correct; you never admitted that you can’t really read greek but simply use dictionary level “translation” skills.

4) Your “proofs” have often been faulty You have claimed to have “proved” so much and so often when the “proof” was merely an unproven claim. I am actually quite interested in your theory that Hades/Hell ALWAYS refers to the spirit world and never to the punishment after Judgment. However, because your incorrect claims and have been so frequent , I think this new claim deserves looking at before we call it “good”.

5) Also, the posts I made that supported your discussion regarding Hades/spirit world was a cut and post from years ago (2009) describing hades/spirit world : http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ine-gospel-being-taught-dead.html#post1782982


Since I made this same claim in 2009, five years previous, it makes sense that you should tell me that I am right on this point rather than me telling you that you are correct.


6) Ingledsva, I am actually very grateful for your claim regarding Hades (truly, I am), since, if it is correct, will confirm my beliefs rather than change them, it will augment the LDS stance rather than detract from it; and it is quite interesting to me as a point of historical consideration.



However, it is the first point that you have made in many, many, many posts that has been positive or helpful . I cannot afford the time if you cannot come up with good points more often than this.


While I appreciate this single good point you have made, you should allow me time to look at it and study it out before you demand recognition you have, historically, not deserved in the past (yet still wanted and expected).

I honestly wish that you find some sort of satisfaction and joy in this life and I hope that your claim proves to be correct.


Clear