Joseph Smith - Prophet of God

[Polaris]

The Old Testament prophet Amos taught that "the Lord God will do nothing but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7). During the difficult infant days of Christianity Paul taught the same principle: that prophets and apostles would always serve as the foundation of Christ's true church. He declared that prophets and apostles would be needed for the work of the ministry until all come in the unity of the faith in Jesus Christ (see Ephesians 4:11-13).

These scriptures make it clear that wherever the true gospel of Christ is ministered, it will be directed through a prophet of God. The Savior also knew that false prophets would rise up and decieve many, and so gave this piece of counsel concerning true prophets: "ye shall know them by their fruits... a good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit" (Matthew 7:16-18).

Undoubtedly many false prophets have come forth since the time of Christ. We have even seen some in our own day such as David Koresh, and Warren Jeffs, who each have been exposed by the evil fruits of their works.

In harmony with the teachings of Amos, Paul, and Christ himself, true prophets have also come forth in the due time of the Lord, and heeded the divine call to reveal truth and minister the true gospel of Christ. After a long season in which a famine of prophetic leadership prevailed, God chose once again to call a prophet.

In the spring of 1820 God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ appeared in person to a mere boy and commissioned him to a divine work. Joseph Smith was called to be the mouthpiece of God to man, just as all the holy ancient prophets had been. Through this prophet, God restored truths that had been corrupted, priesthood authority that had been lost, and a church organization that had been dormant since the days of the early Apostles.

The fruits that have proceeded from the ministry of Joseph Smith are many and are far from evil. The good fruits produced by this tree include a worldwide church that is active and dilligent in the preaching of salvation through Christ, the establishment of additional scripture that further clarifies the doctrines of the gospel, the providing of relief to the poor and the needy, and the rearing of families with strong moral values just to name a few.

Joseph Smith was not a perfect man, but he was a good man who was called of God to be a prophet to the world. And though he was persecuted for his testimony of Christ, he was dilligent and faithful in his call as a true prophet of God.

All honest seekers of truth must at least consider with sincerity the mission and fruits of the prophet Joseph Smith. Either Joseph was indeed a true prophet or he was a deceiptful fraud.

If he was a true prophet then the doctrines and authority that he restored are pure and true.

If he was not a true prophet...
- either the major fruits of his labor must be evil
- or somehow good fruit came from a corrupt tree despite what Christ taught

So where do you stand?

 

[nutshell]

I really don't like putting Joseph on a pedastal.

One of his fruits? Polygamy. I have a lot of questions about JS's personal experiences with this and how his actions opened the door for Warren Jeffs.

Probably not the answer you were looking for from a member - but I've got to be honest.

 

[Polaris]

I really don't like putting Joseph on a pedastal.

I'm not putting him on a pedastal. In my OP I openly admit he wasn't perfect -- he was a good man who was chosen by God to do an important work and it's important that people know who he was and what he was called to do.

One of his fruits? Polygamy. I have a lot of questions about JS's personal experiences with this and how his actions opened the door for Warren Jeffs.

We clearly don't know all the details about Joseph's involvement with polygamy other than he was commanded by God to practice it and he complied. To blame him in any way for the sex crimes and abuse that Warren Jeffs is guilty of is completely off base. Jeffs is responsible and accountable for his own actions.

Probably not the answer you were looking for from a member - but I've got to be honest.

I appreciate your honesty.

 

[Popeyesays]

Polygamy, after all was the norm in the time of Abraham, Moses, Christ and Muhammed. The conflict arose when Young attempted to buck the law of the land by trekking off into the desert and thinking that others -- including the U.S. government would not be able to do the same.

Regards,
Scott

 

[nutshell]

I've been bombarded in other forums that Joseph had teenage wives (like Jeffs) and/or he would be sealed to women already married. I don't know how to respond. What do the LDS think of this?

 

[Polaris]

Polygamy, after all was the norm in the time of Abraham, Moses, Christ and Muhammed.

True, and the bible makes it clear that there are times that the Lord approves of polygamy.

The conflict arose when Young attempted to buck the law of the land by trekking off into the desert and thinking that others -- including the U.S. government would not be able to do the same.

That's not true. The Mormon's trek to Utah was at the hands of violent mobs not government officials seeking to prosecute polygamists.

Anyway we're getting off topic here. What is your view on the prophethood of Joseph Smith?

 

[Popeyesays]

True, and the bible makes it clear that there are times that the Lord approves of polygamy.

That's not true. The Mormon's trek to Utah was at the hands of violent mobs not government officials seeking to prosecute polygamists.

Anyway we're getting off topic here. What is your view on the prophethood of Joseph Smith?

I've read the Book of Mormon and The Pearl of Great Price. I attended Mormon teaching classes when I was about fifteen.

In the long run, I was unconvinced that the Book of Mormon was genuine. The main chafe for me was the pages devoted to the signatures of those who verified the existence of the Tablets of Gold. No other Holy Writ begins with the testimony of signed individuals. They all leave it up to the reader to determine what is true and what is not.

If the Book of Mormon were genuine there would be archeological evidence to support its premises. I see none of that.

I do not doubt that Joseph Smith was a good man, but did he receive a genuine revelation? I don't think so.

My opinion is that the claim does not make sense, nor does it appeal to my rational judgment.

Combine this with the fact that neither the Bab nor Baha`u'llah make mention of him and I can't accept the claim. Was he somehow sensitive to the Revelation of the Bab's immanence? Perhaps he was.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Polaris]

I've been bombarded in other forums that Joseph had teenage wives (like Jeffs) and/or he would be sealed to women already married. I don't know how to respond. What do the LDS think of this?

I'm only aware of one occasion where Joseph was sealed to someone younger than 20, and there are records that indicate that he was sealed to women already married, but there is no evidence whatsoever that he had intimate relations with any of them.

We don't have all the details, explanations, etc, but remember that being sealed is a requirement for exaltation. All I've read on the topic indicates that Joseph was sealed to these women for eternal purposes not intimate mortal experiences.

The bottom line is that we don't have all the answers. There is absolutely no evidence that Joseph was abusive or selfish in any way regarding his polygamous relationships. The overwelming majority of accounts report Joseph as a selfless and compassionate person.

 

[Popeyesays]

Young left the territory of the United States not just because of polygamy. He left because he hoped to find a place where the Mormons could be Mormons without interference. That idea was doomed, just like the Boers before him attempted to trek beyond the reach of the English.

Regards,
Scott

 

[doppelganger]

So where do you stand?

He doesn't stand out as a prophet to me. He had a few interesting things to say, but all-in-all I find Smith's mythology fascinatingly detailed but largely uninspiring.

 

[Polaris]

In the long run, I was unconvinced that the Book of Mormon was genuine. The main chafe for me was the pages devoted to the signatures of those who verified the existence of the Tablets of Gold. No other Holy Writ begins with the testimony of signed individuals. They all leave it up to the reader to determine what is true and what is not.

This doesn't really make sense to me, but you're entitled to your view. I don't see how a written testimony by men who saw the plates has any negative bearing on the authenticity of the book. They're simply giving their testamony. People still have to read it and pray to find out for themselves whether its true or not.

If the Book of Mormon were genuine there would be archeological evidence to support its premises. I see none of that.

There are certain pieces of archeological evidence, and if we knew exactly where to look there would likely be more, but I understand your hesitency. But archeological evidence, no matter how convincing, can never prove that the Book of Mormon is of divine origin, just as archeological evidence can't prove that the Bible is of divine origin.

I do not doubt that Joseph Smith was a good man, but did he receive a genuine revelation? I don't think so.

So was he decieved or was he a liar? Did he not produce good fruits? Is that not what Jesus taught was the indicator of a true prophet? How then can we identify a true prophet?

 

[Polaris]

Young left the territory of the United States not just because of polygamy. He left because he hoped to find a place where the Mormons could be Mormons without interference. That idea was doomed, just like the Boers before him attempted to trek beyond the reach of the English.

That's partly true. Both Joseph and Brigham were very strong advocates of the US Constitution. It wasn't Brigham's intent necessarily to try to run away from the US. They plain and simply wanted to move somewhere where mob-induced persecution would not be an issue.

 

[Katzpur]

You've got to keep in mind that the Book of Mormon's origins are substantially different from those of the Bible, for instance, or the Qur'an. Had the individual books contained in the Book of Mormon been available to scholars since the time they were written, it would have been pointless for any witnesses to have had to attest to their existence. The fact that Joseph returned the plates to Moroni once the translation process was complete would provide a reason for someone other than Joseph to describe the plates. That's really all the testimony of the three and eight witnesses really is. It certainly doesn't make it any less necessary for the reader to come to his own conclusions as to the truthfulness of the book.

If the Book of Mormon were genuine there would be archeological evidence to support its premises. I see none of that.

When people speak of the lack of archeological evidence, I always wonder exactly what evidence they would find compelling. There is actually quite a growing body of evidence, not that the book is true, but that it could be true. The long list of items (animals, plants, metals, etc.) that did not exist prior to the Spanish conquest is growing shorter all the time. Personally, I find the linguistic evidence much more compelling, but like anything else, people who have already made up their minds that the book is a nineteenth century fraud are going to dismiss any evidence we might provide without giving it so much as a second glance.

 

[Polaris]

There's a difficult challenge that honest people face who don't accept Joseph Smith as a true prophet. They have to answer these questions:

- Where did the Book of Mormon come from?

- Did Joseph Smith produce such a theologically and logistically complex work all on his own at such a young age and with such little formal education?

- In light of Christ's instruction: "by their fruits ye shall know them", how do you reconcile your belief that Joseph is not a true prophet -- his efforts produced many good fruits?

- How would you identify a true prophet?

- Where then are the true prophets that Amos and Paul promised would participate in the ministry of the true gospel of Christ?

I am genuinely curious how you answer these questions.

 

[doppelganger]

- Where did the Book of Mormon come from?

Joseph Smith's imagination and cut and paste from the OT.

- Did Joseph Smith produce such a theologically and logistically complex work all on his own at such a young age and with such little formal education?

Yes. He was very intelligent and creative.

- In light of Christ's instruction: "by their fruits ye shall know them", how do you reconcile your belief that Joseph is not a true prophet -- his efforts produced many good fruits?

"Good fruits" is subjectively used here. Aside from that, everyone who one thinks produces "good fruits" is therefore a prophet. That would include IMO George Carlin, Daniel Dennet and Julia Childs.

- How would you identify a true prophet?

By his "truth."

- Where then are the true prophets that Amos and Paul promised would participate in the ministry of the true gospel of Christ?

In the reader's imagination, or any place someone promoting a "prophet" needs to invoke the idea.

I am genuinely curious how you answer these questions.

I aim to please.

 

[Comprehend]

He doesn't stand out as a prophet to me. He had a few interesting things to say, but all-in-all I find Smith's mythology fascinatingly detailed but largely uninspiring.

Sure does inspire a heck of a lot of other people around the world. We are now the 4th largest church in the United States and one of the fastest growing in the world.

I guess it can't inspire everyone eh?

 

[Comprehend]

Joseph Smith's imagination and cut and paste from the OT.

If you really think you have an argument for that, why don't you take DeepShadow's longstanding challenge for a one-on-one debate on the authenticity of the Book of Mormon?

He sure got lucky with his imagination.

 

[doppelganger]

Sure does inspire a heck of a lot of other people around the world. We are now the 4th largest church in the United States and one of the fastest growing in the world.

I guess it can't inspire everyone eh?

Of course not. And if it inspires you, then who am I to say it shouldn't? The fact that it has many adherents doesn't make the dogmas and myths of Mormonism any more "true" than any others.

OTOH, why is the OP asking my why I'm not a Mormon? It does nothing for me as a mythology aside from stimulate my curiosity in the creative detail, and as a literal "truth", I think it's probably a product of Joseph Smith's imagination. If you don't like the answer, don't ask.

 

[Polaris]

Joseph Smith's imagination and cut and paste from the OT.
Yes. He was very intelligent and creative.

Wow, you give Joseph a lot of credit.

"Good fruits" is subjectively used here. Aside from that, everyone who one thinks produces "good fruits" is therefore a prophet. That would include IMO George Carlin, Daniel Dennet and Julia Childs.

Did George Carlin, Daniel Dennet, or Julia Childs ever claim to be a prophet of God?

By his "truth."

How do you identify truth?

 

[doppelganger]

If you really think you have an argument for that, why don't you take DeepShadow's longstanding challenge for a one-on-one debate on the authenticity of the Book of Mormon?

I'm not making an argument. I'm expressing my opinion in response to a question.

In any case, why would I care whether Deep Shadow changes his mind? I assume he's invested emotionally in his faith and any such "debate" would be a waste of time, just like all such debates are. Moreover, since it's the OP that is proselytizing Mormonism, the question is not whether I can prove Smith dreamed it all up, but whether you can prove to my satisfaction otherwise. Trust me in saying that NO FACTUAL ASSERTION no matter how ridiculous you think it might seem can EVER be disproved. Not by me . . . not by you . . . not by anyone.

He sure got lucky with his imagination.

So did JRR Tolkien, L. Ron Hubbard, Baha'u'llah, Madonna and Lenny Bruce . . .