John Macarthur opens church

[Jainarayan]

Much like there is no right to blow cigarette smoke in someone's face (any resumting punches would be well deserved), you have no right to breathe your germs on people while we have a pandemic involving a highly contagious, destructive, and fairly deadly virus. And to complicate things further the typical case has people being most contagious just before the onset of symptoms.
And drunk driving laws says we already do things as a preventive measure against reckless and selfish behaviors that sees other people paying the price. Pollution laws are basically the same. Amd public smoking bans.

Wrong, that punch is not deserved. You have the option to walk away. You have the obligation to remove yourself from harm’s way. You don’t go into the woods during deer season wearing buckskin then whine when you get shot. It’s dangerous out there... stay home and stop whining

 

[Jainarayan]

I think I've understood very well what you wrote.

You complained about others inciting fear about the spread of COVID, as you were inciting fear about being rounded up in the night and taken away for not following COVID protocols.
Please, tell me what I've misunderstood.

You’ve misunderstood what misunderstanding is, and what badgering is. Especially when you’ve been answered but prefer to ignore that and just keep going on and on... almost a month later.

 

[SkepticThinker]

You’ve misunderstood what misunderstanding is, and what badgering is. Especially when you’ve been answered but prefer to ignore that and just keep going on and on... almost a month later.

LOL Okay.

Sorry for pointing out the obvious hypocrisy in your argument. Good luck with that.

I'm going to go call the mask police now. Enjoy the Gulag!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I LOVE that quote. The word "bondage" reflects a slave situation where they are not allowed to think or do anything unless their masters tell them. Fear is VERY controlling and places people in chains, it won't let you out of the house, it won't let you go inside a grocery story, it won't let you go to work because you fear you are about to die.

Or as Henny Penny said, "The sky is falling".

Or as Jesus said "Don't tempt me."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Wrong, that punch is not deserved. You have the option to walk away. You have the obligation to remove yourself from harm’s way. You don’t go into the woods during deer season wearing buckskin then whine when you get shot. It’s dangerous out there... stay home and stop whining

If someone deliberately blows smoke in my face, I don't adhere to or endorse "turn the other cheek." Becaise doing such a thing is called being a dick. Amd simply walking away doesn't address the problem and issue at hand.

 

[Jainarayan]

If someone deliberately blows smoke in my face, I don't adhere to or endorse "turn the other cheek." Becaise doing such a thing is called being a dick. Amd simply walking away doesn't address the problem and issue at hand.

I don’t have bail money for you. I hope someone does. I don’t smoke, but if that happened and you took a swipe at me, you best believe I would press charges.

 

[dad]

Of course. And, as with all freedoms, such is limited by other freedoms and concerns.

In this case, it is simply wanton disregard for human life.

Who says constitutional rights are limited or that rights to worship are limited? There are millions of babies killed each year, far more than the deaths from the China virus. One of the biggest killers is medical error. Far more than covid deaths so far. The lockdowns cause shortages and many people are predicted to die from this. Far more than covid deaths. For those people wanting to kill freedom for their selected cause de jour, I say limit THEIR freedoms.

 

[dad]

The people where I live attend online services or outdoor services (with masks on, of course). And our current COVID outbreak is no where near as bad as the one in the US.
What's the big deal?

How about your abortion clinics operate online? What and who is essential. is not something to be determined by you.

 

[dad]

Prevent as many premature deaths as possible.

All babies sacrificed are premature deaths. As I showed a few posts ago, covid is not the biggest or only killer.

 

[dad]

I'm not going to judge those people. Everything else is open, why not churches and other places of worship? If they mask up and socially distance, I fail to see what the problem is. And I don't want to hear "stay home" because I work full time in retail. Not all of us are ****ing office workers who do their work over Zoom or retired.

Mask up means less than nothing. People can wear cloth or uncleaned masks that cause more problems than the disease ever could. Social distancing is a joke in many cases, as it seems to only apply in certain instances.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You realize that the person you're talking to lost his longtime job due to the lockdowns? Look, I'm not trying to get personal but I notice that many of the people on this board lambesting those who question the need to shut everything down and stay home are up there in age and likely retired, or can otherwise avoid the public. Not all of us can. Most can't. I sure can't. I have to take the bus, even! Some fools were even saying we should shut public transportation down. How privileged they are to think that's even an option. People need to work to make a living in America and if you lose your income, there's no real help coming. Yeah, a lot of people would rather get Covid than to lose their livelihood and home, when it comes down to it. People need to be more understanding of others. This is real life and things are desperate.

These are all really good points, and I do get it. I take the bus every day, as well. I am lucky, I have not lost my job (although Toronto, where I live, has gone through a lockdown, and is in another partial one).

Many of my friends are laid off now, and they're hurting. Fortunately, the Canadian government leans left of that in the US, and so there has been a lot of government help for those people. They are getting cheques to pay the rent and buy food. It's not making them rich, for sure, but they are getting by.

But if that money is not coming from somewhere, then I see your point completely. In that case, I can only say, if you are going to work -- wear a mask, wash your hands frequently, socially distance with all your might -- in other words, try to be safe yourself, and try to be mindful that other people would also like to be safe.

This business of gathering in large crowds, maskless, is reckless and really, really dumb.

 

[Polymath257]

Who says constitutional rights are limited or that rights to worship are limited? There are millions of babies killed each year, far more than the deaths from the China virus. One of the biggest killers is medical error. Far more than covid deaths so far. The lockdowns cause shortages and many people are predicted to die from this. Far more than covid deaths. For those people wanting to kill freedom for their selected cause de jour, I say limit THEIR freedoms.

ALL rights are limited in some way.

The freedom of speech is limited: you cannot yell 'fire' in a crowded theater, nor can you print libelous material.

Freedom to bear arms is limited: if you are committing another crime, the penalty is worse if you carry a gun.

Freedom to assemble is limited: you cannot simply decide to hold a party in the middle of the highway.

And, yes, freedom of religion is limited: if your religion involves use of psychoactive substances, there will be limitations. If your religion involves human sacrifice, there will be limitations. And, finally, if you religion puts other people in harm's way, it will be limited.

And, in the specific case of COVID, there are enough victims of this disease that hospitals no longer have beds for other emergency patients. That means more people die than simply those from this disease.

Minimizing the harm done is heartless and cruel when very simple actions can help to reduce the spread of this disease. But, people decide to flaunt those basic behaviors and people die because of that.

The blood is on the hands of those who gather without masks.

 

[Kenny]

But that largely depends on how the church itself is set up, especially since some of the worst "super-spreaders" have occurred at church services.

Ours is set up with masks and social distancing being absolutely mandatory with no congregating before or after the services. I talked with our priest about three weeks ago and asked him how many have reported having the virus, and he said there were only two and they both survived. And our church is a rather large one, especially compared to neighboring Protestant ones, seating 1500 at capacity.

Also, Catholic services are televised through a local t.v. station plus ETWN, and our one daughter's Judaism services are live-streamed. We also have auto-donations, which my wife & I have used since March.

[

That is quite a large church... they must be doing something right... like..... social distancing

 

[Kenny]

You realize that the person you're talking to lost his longtime job due to the lockdowns? Look, I'm not trying to get personal but I notice that many of the people on this board lambesting those who question the need to shut everything down and stay home are up there in age and likely retired, or can otherwise avoid the public. Not all of us can. Most can't. I sure can't. I have to take the bus, even! Some fools were even saying we should shut public transportation down. How privileged they are to think that's even an option. People need to work to make a living in America and if you lose your income, there's no real help coming. Yeah, a lot of people would rather get Covid than to lose their livelihood and home, when it comes down to it. People need to be more understanding of others. This is real life and things are desperate.

THAT! is the reason why I don't like shutdowns. Only the "haves" can weather it.

 

[dad]

ALL rights are limited in some way.

The freedom of speech is limited: you cannot yell 'fire' in a crowded theater, nor can you print libelous material.

Freedom to bear arms is limited: if you are committing another crime, the penalty is worse if you carry a gun.

Freedom to assemble is limited: you cannot simply decide to hold a party in the middle of the highway.

And, yes, freedom of religion is limited: if your religion involves use of psychoactive substances, there will be limitations. If your religion involves human sacrifice, there will be limitations. And, finally, if you religion puts other people in harm's way, it will be limited.

And, in the specific case of COVID, there are enough victims of this disease that hospitals no longer have beds for other emergency patients. That means more people die than simply those from this disease.

Minimizing the harm done is heartless and cruel when very simple actions can help to reduce the spread of this disease. But, people decide to flaunt those basic behaviors and people die because of that.

The blood is on the hands of those who gather without masks.

I find this opinion foolish. Masks is a term that means little. It is not like we are talking about masks that are medical grade and guaranteed to protect us and others from the virus. People could wear an old sock on their face shaped like a mask, or a bandana and they would be 'with masks'. Social distancing is great, but we all know there are many exceptions to this. So if someone throws a dirty sock on their face to line up at Cosco, then later goes to a liquor store and a gym, and a pub and a party at their friends, and gets together with a new girl etc..how is this 'saving lives'?? The only way your scenario could work is in jail or some regime where all freedom is lost, and they had the funds to properly equip all people with equipment that would be something like what is worn in the Wuhan lab.

 

[Callisto]

The Church is the biggest safeguard against dictatorship

Except when it came to the divine rights of kings, Christian era Rome, 19th century France, its non-resistance to facism in Croatia and dubious stance during WWII; curious bedfellows with various Latin America dictators, to name some instances.

 

[Callisto]

So much for "love thy neighbour."

"Do unto others...." could really come back to bite one in the arse.

 

[Kenny]

Except when it came to the divine rights of kings, Christian era Rome, 19th century France, its non-resistance to facism in Croatia and dubious stance during WWII; curious bedfellows with various Latin America dictators, to name some instances.

Today's church is STILL the biggest safeguard against dictatorship. Shut the church down (as they continue to do in so many countries) is the step that is necessary to keep the dictatorship.

 

[Callisto]

How would someone going to church would cause you to get COVID? Why should my fear hinder someone else's right to go to church or Walmart or to the gas station or to the beach?

Learn about how it has devastated NY's Hasidic community if you think there is no threat.

Are you familiar with contact tracing? Every person who is exposed to something at site A can spread it to other locations they visit - like stores or work, family. There are cases, like the summer wedding in Maine, in which people contracted and died from Covid who didn't attend the wedding, they were actually hundreds of miles away. Unfortunately for them, someone who had gone to the wedding brought it back with them.

 

[metis]

[

That is quite a large church... they must be doing something right... like..... social distancing

Well, since attendance is way down as we've been here before, so social distancing during the mass is not a problem-- but keeping social distancing with our friends there is, and my wife keeps getting on my case for that. Now, that may come as a surprise to you as I'm sure you picture me as being the silent type.