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Jews are not trying to build a Temple/synagogue on the Temple Mount

Tumah

Veteran Member
I've heard it said a number of times by Muslims that Jews are planning (late at night at the yearly graveyard gathering no doubt) to build a Temple/synagogue on the Temple Mount currently occupied by al Aqsa Mosque. I thought I would take the time to make a thread about some of the reasons that this couldn't be true.

1. Israel is a secular state. Its Jewish nature is cultural not religious. Its hard enough to get them to clear a plot to build a synagogue anywhere else in the country, let alone in such a controversial spot.

2. Most religious arbitrators of Jewish Law, including all ultra-Orthodox (Haredi) and many National Religious Rabbis prohibit ascending the Temple mount altogether. The reason is two-fold:
A) It instigates Muslims to kill Jews.
B) Unlearned Jews, not realizing that the others are purposely circumventing certain areas, may unknowingly enter areas that are for purity reasons, off-limits to all Jews (more on this in a bit).

3. We do not have the exact placement and dimensions of all structures on the Temple mount. Certain areas of the Temple are as stated above off-limits for purity reasons and other areas are off limits for certain classes (ie. Israel, Levite). Building a new Temple on the wrong site will cause people to inadvertently transgress these prohibitions.
By way of explanation, purity reasons refer to the fact that Jews either are or are suspect of being impure by virtue of contact with a dead human. The only way to remove this impurity is through the ashes of the red heifer. The only way to get the ashes of the red heifer is to have an altar in the Temple. Ergo, we wait for Elijah to bring us the remains of the last one as there is currently no way to remove this impurity.

4. There is no commandment fulfilled by building a Temple and without an altar in the Temple proper we are not required to bring sacrifices. There is absolutely no mention of the Sages that lived after the destruction of the Temple offering sacrifices on the altar even though they had access to red heifer ashes.

5. When ritually impure by means of contact with dead bodies, it is not permitted to bring private sacrifices. Similarly, public sacrifices (which may be brought while impure)require either most Jews to chip in for it, or through the Sanhedrin. Since there is no longer a Temple tax or Sanhedrin, sacrifices public sacrifices can't be brought. The only sacrifice that doesn't fall under either of these categories (and likewise the only possibility under serious discussion because of these reasons) is the Passover sacrifice. Which still has all the other problems listed here.

6. Sacrifices require that a priest offer the sacrifice. During the Temple era, people kept meticulous documentation of their genealogy in books called "book of geneology (ספר יוחסין)". These books are long lost. All the priests today are called "priests by way of probability". From the perspective of Jewish Law we make an assumptions both ways stringently: they can't eat the priestly gifts (which are prohibited to Israelites and Levites) in case they aren't priests, but we do perform the redemption of the firstborn through them in case they are priests (because at worst nothing happened). For our discussion, this means that according to many Rabbis priests can't serve in the Temple until the Messiah comes and works it out.

Some of the reasons we don't rely on priests are the possibility of a mistake in transmitting one's caste to descendants (purposely or accidentally), transference of disqualified priesthood to descendants and rape of priest's wife by non-Jews (not so uncommon at some points) and attributing the child with the priest status.

7. Even according to those Rabbis who maintain that a "probable priest" can perform the Temple service, Temple service can only be performed while wearing the priestly garments. This relates to three problems:
A) The belt the priest wore needs to have a certain amount of threads dyed "techeleth (ch like the German Bach)". This dye was normally acquired from the hilazon - an animal we can no longer identify. There are two popular modern day suggestions for the identity of this animal but without knowing if it is the correct one, the priest would be at risk of transgressing the prohibition of performing Temple service without the priestly garments.
B) The belt also had another red dye called "argamon". The number of arguments to the nature of this color would require that the priest wear thirteen different belts in order to fulfill every possibility. This is problematic because the belt had to be worn around the waist at elbow height and was approximately 3 inches wide, not leaving enough room for more than one belt. Let alone an additional prohibition against wearing non-priestly clothing (that would be the 12 wrong ones) during Temple service.
C) There are three different opinions as to how the hat worn by the priest was made.

To sum, because of the lack of clear identification of certain parts of the priestly garments, the priest would be at risk of either transgressing 1. wearing non-priestly clothing 2. not wearing priestly clothing 3. wearing too many clothing. And that's only if he's really a priest, otherwise he transgresses performing service by a non-priest in the Temple.

These are all the reasons I can think of. I'm sure there are others of which I'm not aware. But we can see from here clearly, that building a Temple/synagogue would be virtually impossible without transgressing Jewish Law and would be purposeless as the Temple service can't actually be performed.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I've heard it said a number of times by Muslims that Jews are planning (late at night at the yearly graveyard gathering no doubt) to build a Temple/synagogue on the Temple Mount currently occupied by al Aqsa Mosque. I thought I would take the time to make a thread about some of the reasons that this couldn't be true.

1. Israel is a secular state. Its Jewish nature is cultural not religious. Its hard enough to get them to clear a plot to build a synagogue anywhere else in the country, let alone in such a controversial spot.

2. Most religious arbitrators of Jewish Law, including all ultra-Orthodox (Haredi) and many National Religious Rabbis prohibit ascending the Temple mount altogether. The reason is two-fold:
A) It instigates Muslims to kill Jews.
B) Unlearned Jews, not realizing that the others are purposely circumventing certain areas, may unknowingly enter areas that are for purity reasons, off-limits to all Jews (more on this in a bit).

3. We do not have the exact placement and dimensions of all structures on the Temple mount. Certain areas of the Temple are as stated above off-limits for purity reasons and other areas are off limits for certain classes (ie. Israel, Levite). Building a new Temple on the wrong site will cause people to inadvertently transgress these prohibitions.
By way of explanation, purity reasons refer to the fact that Jews either are or are suspect of being impure by virtue of contact with a dead human. The only way to remove this impurity is through the ashes of the red heifer. The only way to get the ashes of the red heifer is to have an altar in the Temple. Ergo, we wait for Elijah to bring us the remains of the last one as there is currently no way to remove this impurity.

4. There is no commandment fulfilled by building a Temple and without an altar in the Temple proper we are not required to bring sacrifices. There is absolutely no mention of the Sages that lived after the destruction of the Temple offering sacrifices on the altar even though they had access to red heifer ashes.

5. When ritually impure by means of contact with dead bodies, it is not permitted to bring private sacrifices. Similarly, public sacrifices (which may be brought while impure)require either most Jews to chip in for it, or through the Sanhedrin. Since there is no longer a Temple tax or Sanhedrin, sacrifices public sacrifices can't be brought. The only sacrifice that doesn't fall under either of these categories (and likewise the only possibility under serious discussion because of these reasons) is the Passover sacrifice. Which still has all the other problems listed here.

6. Sacrifices require that a priest offer the sacrifice. During the Temple era, people kept meticulous documentation of their genealogy in books called "book of geneology (ספר יוחסין)". These books are long lost. All the priests today are called "priests by way of probability". From the perspective of Jewish Law we make an assumptions both ways stringently: they can't eat the priestly gifts (which are prohibited to Israelites and Levites) in case they aren't priests, but we do perform the redemption of the firstborn through them in case they are priests (because at worst nothing happened). For our discussion, this means that according to many Rabbis priests can't serve in the Temple until the Messiah comes and works it out.

Some of the reasons we don't rely on priests are the possibility of a mistake in transmitting one's caste to descendants (purposely or accidentally), transference of disqualified priesthood to descendants and rape of priest's wife by non-Jews (not so uncommon at some points) and attributing the child with the priest status.

7. Even according to those Rabbis who maintain that a "probable priest" can perform the Temple service, Temple service can only be performed while wearing the priestly garments. This relates to three problems:
A) The belt the priest wore needs to have a certain amount of threads dyed "techeleth (ch like the German Bach)". This dye was normally acquired from the hilazon - an animal we can no longer identify. There are two popular modern day suggestions for the identity of this animal but without knowing if it is the correct one, the priest would be at risk of transgressing the prohibition of performing Temple service without the priestly garments.
B) The belt also had another red dye called "argamon". The number of arguments to the nature of this color would require that the priest wear thirteen different belts in order to fulfill every possibility. This is problematic because the belt had to be worn around the waist at elbow height and was approximately 3 inches wide, not leaving enough room for more than one belt. Let alone an additional prohibition against wearing non-priestly clothing (that would be the 12 wrong ones) during Temple service.
C) There are three different opinions as to how the hat worn by the priest was made.

To sum, because of the lack of clear identification of certain parts of the priestly garments, the priest would be at risk of either transgressing 1. wearing non-priestly clothing 2. not wearing priestly clothing 3. wearing too many clothing. And that's only if he's really a priest, otherwise he transgresses performing service by a non-priest in the Temple.

These are all the reasons I can think of. I'm sure there are others of which I'm not aware. But we can see from here clearly, that building a Temple/synagogue would be virtually impossible without transgressing Jewish Law and would be purposeless as the Temple service can't actually be performed.
So now I must ask, considering your cultural way of life seems to be so hard and involved, do you think that there ever will be another temple, even if everyone allowed such?
Also, you said you were not religious as Jews but cultural in heritage. How are you defining religion then.
Further to that, considering that you don't have to sacrifice anymore -which seems a positive to me- is it not right that everything stays in this status-quo as it is now?


Thanks for the post./ Interesting.
 

MARCELLO

Transitioning from male to female
I've heard it said a number of times by Muslims that Jews are planning (late at night at the yearly graveyard gathering no doubt) to build a Temple/synagogue on the Temple Mount currently occupied by al Aqsa Mosque. I thought I would take the time to make a thread about some of the reasons that this couldn't be true.

1. Israel is a secular state. Its Jewish nature is cultural not religious. Its hard enough to get them to clear a plot to build a synagogue anywhere else in the country, let alone in such a controversial spot.

2. Most religious arbitrators of Jewish Law, including all ultra-Orthodox (Haredi) and many National Religious Rabbis prohibit ascending the Temple mount altogether. The reason is two-fold:
A) It instigates Muslims to kill Jews.
B) Unlearned Jews, not realizing that the others are purposely circumventing certain areas, may unknowingly enter areas that are for purity reasons, off-limits to all Jews (more on this in a bit).

3. We do not have the exact placement and dimensions of all structures on the Temple mount. Certain areas of the Temple are as stated above off-limits for purity reasons and other areas are off limits for certain classes (ie. Israel, Levite). Building a new Temple on the wrong site will cause people to inadvertently transgress these prohibitions.
By way of explanation, purity reasons refer to the fact that Jews either are or are suspect of being impure by virtue of contact with a dead human. The only way to remove this impurity is through the ashes of the red heifer. The only way to get the ashes of the red heifer is to have an altar in the Temple. Ergo, we wait for Elijah to bring us the remains of the last one as there is currently no way to remove this impurity.

4. There is no commandment fulfilled by building a Temple and without an altar in the Temple proper we are not required to bring sacrifices. There is absolutely no mention of the Sages that lived after the destruction of the Temple offering sacrifices on the altar even though they had access to red heifer ashes.

5. When ritually impure by means of contact with dead bodies, it is not permitted to bring private sacrifices. Similarly, public sacrifices (which may be brought while impure)require either most Jews to chip in for it, or through the Sanhedrin. Since there is no longer a Temple tax or Sanhedrin, sacrifices public sacrifices can't be brought. The only sacrifice that doesn't fall under either of these categories (and likewise the only possibility under serious discussion because of these reasons) is the Passover sacrifice. Which still has all the other problems listed here.

6. Sacrifices require that a priest offer the sacrifice. During the Temple era, people kept meticulous documentation of their genealogy in books called "book of geneology (ספר יוחסין)". These books are long lost. All the priests today are called "priests by way of probability". From the perspective of Jewish Law we make an assumptions both ways stringently: they can't eat the priestly gifts (which are prohibited to Israelites and Levites) in case they aren't priests, but we do perform the redemption of the firstborn through them in case they are priests (because at worst nothing happened). For our discussion, this means that according to many Rabbis priests can't serve in the Temple until the Messiah comes and works it out.

Some of the reasons we don't rely on priests are the possibility of a mistake in transmitting one's caste to descendants (purposely or accidentally), transference of disqualified priesthood to descendants and rape of priest's wife by non-Jews (not so uncommon at some points) and attributing the child with the priest status.

7. Even according to those Rabbis who maintain that a "probable priest" can perform the Temple service, Temple service can only be performed while wearing the priestly garments. This relates to three problems:
A) The belt the priest wore needs to have a certain amount of threads dyed "techeleth (ch like the German Bach)". This dye was normally acquired from the hilazon - an animal we can no longer identify. There are two popular modern day suggestions for the identity of this animal but without knowing if it is the correct one, the priest would be at risk of transgressing the prohibition of performing Temple service without the priestly garments.
B) The belt also had another red dye called "argamon". The number of arguments to the nature of this color would require that the priest wear thirteen different belts in order to fulfill every possibility. This is problematic because the belt had to be worn around the waist at elbow height and was approximately 3 inches wide, not leaving enough room for more than one belt. Let alone an additional prohibition against wearing non-priestly clothing (that would be the 12 wrong ones) during Temple service.
C) There are three different opinions as to how the hat worn by the priest was made.

To sum, because of the lack of clear identification of certain parts of the priestly garments, the priest would be at risk of either transgressing 1. wearing non-priestly clothing 2. not wearing priestly clothing 3. wearing too many clothing. And that's only if he's really a priest, otherwise he transgresses performing service by a non-priest in the Temple.

These are all the reasons I can think of. I'm sure there are others of which I'm not aware. But we can see from here clearly, that building a Temple/synagogue would be virtually impossible without transgressing Jewish Law and would be purposeless as the Temple service can't actually be performed.
Pls try to help me understand; Jews say that that temple is holy , a temple demolished for twice and now being shared with muslim mosque. Why did Hashem allow this?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Pls try to help me understand; Jews say that that temple is holy , a temple demolished for twice and now being shared with muslim mosque. Why did Hashem allow this?
Allow what? The Temple to be destroyed or the mosque to be built on site?
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
So now I must ask, considering your cultural way of life seems to be so hard and involved, do you think that there ever will be another temple, even if everyone allowed such?
I'm confused with your usage of the word cultural in this context rather than religious, but either way, the building of the Third Temple is part of the Messianic age.
Also, you said you were not religious as Jews but cultural in heritage. How are you defining religion then.
No I said [the state of] Israel is culturally Jewish rather than religious. They do not consider religious rituals obligatory as much as connecting with their culture. So they choose which to do and when.
Further to that, considering that you don't have to sacrifice anymore -which seems a positive to me- is it not right that everything stays in this status-quo as it is now?

Thanks for the post./ Interesting.
It is staying as is. That's the point I'm trying to make. Nobody is trying to build the Temple right now on the site of the mosque.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Pls try to help me understand; Jews say that that temple is holy , a temple demolished for twice and now being shared with muslim mosque. Why did Hashem allow this?
Do you think God controls everything that happens?
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
I've heard it said a number of times by Muslims that Jews are planning (late at night at the yearly graveyard gathering no doubt) to build a Temple/synagogue on the Temple Mount currently occupied by al Aqsa Mosque. I thought I would take the time to make a thread about some of the reasons that this couldn't be true.

1. Israel is a secular state. Its Jewish nature is cultural not religious. Its hard enough to get them to clear a plot to build a synagogue anywhere else in the country, let alone in such a controversial spot.

2. Most religious arbitrators of Jewish Law, including all ultra-Orthodox (Haredi) and many National Religious Rabbis prohibit ascending the Temple mount altogether. The reason is two-fold:
A) It instigates Muslims to kill Jews.
B) Unlearned Jews, not realizing that the others are purposely circumventing certain areas, may unknowingly enter areas that are for purity reasons, off-limits to all Jews (more on this in a bit).

3. We do not have the exact placement and dimensions of all structures on the Temple mount. Certain areas of the Temple are as stated above off-limits for purity reasons and other areas are off limits for certain classes (ie. Israel, Levite). Building a new Temple on the wrong site will cause people to inadvertently transgress these prohibitions.
By way of explanation, purity reasons refer to the fact that Jews either are or are suspect of being impure by virtue of contact with a dead human. The only way to remove this impurity is through the ashes of the red heifer. The only way to get the ashes of the red heifer is to have an altar in the Temple. Ergo, we wait for Elijah to bring us the remains of the last one as there is currently no way to remove this impurity.

4. There is no commandment fulfilled by building a Temple and without an altar in the Temple proper we are not required to bring sacrifices. There is absolutely no mention of the Sages that lived after the destruction of the Temple offering sacrifices on the altar even though they had access to red heifer ashes.

5. When ritually impure by means of contact with dead bodies, it is not permitted to bring private sacrifices. Similarly, public sacrifices (which may be brought while impure)require either most Jews to chip in for it, or through the Sanhedrin. Since there is no longer a Temple tax or Sanhedrin, sacrifices public sacrifices can't be brought. The only sacrifice that doesn't fall under either of these categories (and likewise the only possibility under serious discussion because of these reasons) is the Passover sacrifice. Which still has all the other problems listed here.

6. Sacrifices require that a priest offer the sacrifice. During the Temple era, people kept meticulous documentation of their genealogy in books called "book of geneology (ספר יוחסין)". These books are long lost. All the priests today are called "priests by way of probability". From the perspective of Jewish Law we make an assumptions both ways stringently: they can't eat the priestly gifts (which are prohibited to Israelites and Levites) in case they aren't priests, but we do perform the redemption of the firstborn through them in case they are priests (because at worst nothing happened). For our discussion, this means that according to many Rabbis priests can't serve in the Temple until the Messiah comes and works it out.

Some of the reasons we don't rely on priests are the possibility of a mistake in transmitting one's caste to descendants (purposely or accidentally), transference of disqualified priesthood to descendants and rape of priest's wife by non-Jews (not so uncommon at some points) and attributing the child with the priest status.

7. Even according to those Rabbis who maintain that a "probable priest" can perform the Temple service, Temple service can only be performed while wearing the priestly garments. This relates to three problems:
A) The belt the priest wore needs to have a certain amount of threads dyed "techeleth (ch like the German Bach)". This dye was normally acquired from the hilazon - an animal we can no longer identify. There are two popular modern day suggestions for the identity of this animal but without knowing if it is the correct one, the priest would be at risk of transgressing the prohibition of performing Temple service without the priestly garments.
B) The belt also had another red dye called "argamon". The number of arguments to the nature of this color would require that the priest wear thirteen different belts in order to fulfill every possibility. This is problematic because the belt had to be worn around the waist at elbow height and was approximately 3 inches wide, not leaving enough room for more than one belt. Let alone an additional prohibition against wearing non-priestly clothing (that would be the 12 wrong ones) during Temple service.
C) There are three different opinions as to how the hat worn by the priest was made.

To sum, because of the lack of clear identification of certain parts of the priestly garments, the priest would be at risk of either transgressing 1. wearing non-priestly clothing 2. not wearing priestly clothing 3. wearing too many clothing. And that's only if he's really a priest, otherwise he transgresses performing service by a non-priest in the Temple.

These are all the reasons I can think of. I'm sure there are others of which I'm not aware. But we can see from here clearly, that building a Temple/synagogue would be virtually impossible without transgressing Jewish Law and would be purposeless as the Temple service can't actually be performed.

The state of Israel(conscious mind) is impure in many.

One can make sacrifices within to cleanse themselves of this impure mind(temple) and begin to build a new purified mind(temple).

Problem is.... it's impure to see literal land and literal buildings as "holy." It's the human being that is "holy."

Problem also is.... most think exoterically and in vain leading to an impure temple(mind). One will not make these abstract sacrifices of doctrine in order to purify their mind temple. It's too hard. The vanity and pride of literal land, literal buildings, literal clothing, literal laws has minds enslaved.
 

Akivah

Well-Known Member
I've heard it said a number of times by Muslims that Jews are planning (late at night at the yearly graveyard gathering no doubt) to build a Temple/synagogue on the Temple Mount currently occupied by al Aqsa Mosque. I thought I would take the time to make a thread about some of the reasons that this couldn't be true.

That was very interesting Tumah. I've always wondered why Israel has surrendered the Temple Mount to the Arabs, it is essentially Judenrein. Now I know.
 
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MARCELLO

Transitioning from male to female
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make...
Why are not you sure ? Who built the masjeed al Aksa over the ruins of your temple? Do you think weeping over the ruins of some wall make some change? The only holy thing that God wants is humans,nothing else.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Why are not you sure ?
Let's try to follow a consistent train of thought.
You asked me why G-d allowed something, but it wasn't clear whether you were asking why G-d allowed the Temple to be destroyed or why G-d allowed the mosque to be built on the Temple ruins.
I asked you to clarify your question so that I could provide an appropriate response to your question (cool idea, right?) and you responded that the mosque was built 1,000 years ago.
There may be a relation between my question and your response but probably you are the only one that knows what that is. So again, I pointed out that I have no idea what you want. And you are asking me why I am not sure where you're coming from.

Do you see the problem here?

Hopefully, you will be able to.
In the meantime, I will respond to your two new questions. Hopefully your responses to my answers will be somewhat more coherent then previous attempts...
Who built the masjeed al Aksa over the ruins of your temple?
The al Aqsa mosque was build by the order of Abd al Maliq.
Do you think weeping over the ruins of some wall make some change?
Yes. If I don't show my Father that I really want Him back, why should He come?
The only holy thing that God wants is humans,nothing else.
I'm not sure what you mean by G-d wants humans. Like to eat? Maybe you should add the "humans to perform His will". Then I am in complete agreement with you.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
That was very interesting Tumah. I've always wondered why Israel has surrendered the Temple Mount to the Arabs, it is essentially Judenrein. Now I know.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that's why Israel surrendered the Temple. But its probably part of the reason they aren't working to take it back again.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
4. There is no commandment fulfilled by building a Temple and without an altar in the Temple proper we are not required to bring sacrifices. There is absolutely no mention of the Sages that lived after the destruction of the Temple offering sacrifices on the altar even though they had access to red heifer ashes.

Ahem regarding that.
During the short lived Sassanid Supported Jewish Satellite State around 600CE the Temple Mount was under our control, basic rebuilding of the Temple commenced and sacrifices were offered.

Just sayin.


Also regarding your religious label on the left, you should put a colour at the end of it. Like Gold or Silver.

Sounds more awesome.
 

Tumah

Veteran Member
Ahem regarding that.
During the short lived Sassanid Supported Jewish Satellite State around 600CE the Temple Mount was under our control, basic rebuilding of the Temple commenced and sacrifices were offered.

Just sayin.
I'd love to see a source for that. There's no mention of such a thing in the [few] rabbinical books on the subject that I've seen which did include at least one quote from the Gaonic period. I think that would be a key bit of information to be missing.

Also regarding your religious label on the left, you should put a colour at the end of it. Like Gold or Silver.

Sounds more awesome.
Mega-Super-Ultra-Orthodox Judaism Black-and-White
 

wizanda

One Accepts All Religious Texts
Premium Member
So if the Messiah and Elijah come first, what happens to the Mosque already there? :relaxed:
 
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