1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Jesus vs the New Testament

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Disciple of Jesus, Mar 10, 2019.

?

New testament representative of Jesus?

Poll closed Tuesday at 1:13 PM.
  1. Yes

    66.7%
  2. No

    13.3%
  3. Somewhat, more representative

    13.3%
  4. Somewhat, less representative

    20.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,076
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    Christian
    Josephus was 33 and employed as a historian by the Flavian emperors Vespasian, Titus, and Domitian.
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,076
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    Christian
    Arabs have been in Palestine since the time of Abraham.. Remember his Arab wife Keturah ?
    Keturah - Sons
     
  3. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,250
    Ratings:
    +153
    Religion:
    None
    That's true. The Levant is known as a melting pot due to
    its proximity to many empires and nations. It was also
    a major trading route. Jesus was despised because he
    hailed from Nazareth - a specific trading location.
    So there's many people in Israel and Canaan - Moabites,
    Edomites, Amonites, Amelakites, Phillistines etc..
    And there's some Arabs there too. In fact Abraham's son
    Ishmael is considered the founder of Arab nations. But
    that's different to there being an Arab nation. For this I
    think you have to look to Saudi Arabia.
     
  4. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,076
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    Christian
    There was NO Arab state in Saudi Arabia until Ibn Saud united the tribes... and as for Israel .. it was vassal state for most of its history. Remember that Sargon 2 settled 4 Arab tribes in Samaria in 716 BCE.
    Israel was a small backwater.. When they were in exile in Babylon they were exposed to splendid architecture, mythology and wealth. There is no other way to account for their exaggerations and tall tales .

    [​IMG]
     
  5. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2017
    Messages:
    4,194
    Ratings:
    +2,467
    Religion:
    Skeptical
    The history of Christianity is loaded high with forced conversions, from the use of Constantine's declaration against the pagan world right through to Charlemagne's campaigns against his neighbors in northern and western Europe. It was a routine feature of the European colonization of both Americas and Africa, and with African slaves brought to the US, Caribbean and elsewhere.
    Not at all strange once you acquaint yourself with the problems of the NT documents from an historical rather than a believer's point of view.
    There's no need for Jesus to have existed in history to have influence as a religious idea. Gautama Buddha was likely a real person, though which of the suttas attributed to him are his is an ongoing debate. It seems more likely than not that Muhammad existed in history, but none of the sayings attributed to him in the Qur'an can be shown to be his and very likely are not. But it doesn't matter ─ the religions led by Brahma, Osiris, Zeus, the Great Spirit, the Rainbow Serpent and so on have all been very influential in their cultural spheres at their relevant times.
    Then why do you think humans have to be 'redeemed' at all? Redeemed from what, exactly? Redeemed by what process, exactly? I find the concept singularly empty as a statement about reality.
    None of them did. Mark devises the only purported biography of Jesus by stitching bits of the Tanakh together which the author takes to be messianic prophecy, the author of Matthew copies it but rewrites the parts he doesn't like and adds some 'fulfillment of prophecy' tales of his own, the author of Luke copies Mark, corrects them both and adds some tales, and the author of John presents a fifth version of Jesus.

    If there's any sign of a real human in any of that, it may be that an historical Jesus was conceived out of wedlock, fought with his family and never had a kind word for his mother; and had some physical defect which would lead to his 'physician, heal thyself' line. His message may have been, Get ready, the Kingdom is at hand. Paul says his name wasn't Jesus until after he'd been crucified. Or maybe there was a real Jesus but none of that is correct. Or maybe there was no real Jesus.
    As I said, none of the gospel authors claims to be an eyewitness, and the texts confirm this. And John wasn't written till some 70 years after the traditional death of Jesus.
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,076
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    Christian
    I'm told the gospel of John is written in impeccable Greek .. so different from John of Patmos. Were they both
    "Christians"?
     
  7. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,250
    Ratings:
    +153
    Religion:
    None
    This must all be a part of the Babylonian Bible Myth?
    I don't buy it, you shouldn't either.
    A lot of the Old Testament was written in text not known to Babylonians.
    Same too for the history of the kings, locations and culture of Bronze
    Age Israel which would not have been known to Babylonian age scribes
    unless it was copied from older manuscripts.
    Some book of the bible had to explain to later Jewish readers what
    things meant in that time period. You see that in Ruth - the customs
    then were different, but they reflected Bronze Age life.
    And the House of David would have been as far back to Babylonian
    time as Columbus would be to Americans today - yet we know it
    existed. Without some manuscript Babylonians wouldn't have heard
    of King David and King Solomon.
    That manuscript, to put it simply, was the bible.
     
  8. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,250
    Ratings:
    +153
    Religion:
    None
    People seem to think Jews were dumb. They couldn't build great nations,
    or have great kings or even (incredibly) couldn't write or have their own
    language. Yet we know many nations hired Jews for their business
    acumen. So why couldn't John learn Greek as he was preaching to the
    Greek/Latin world? We know Matthew was a tax official - he used a
    form of shorthand only officials were taught. Interesting, isn't it? When
    you read of the bible you are told it was invented after Babylon or by
    Catholics in the 3rd and 4th Centuries AD.
     
  9. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,250
    Ratings:
    +153
    Religion:
    None
    That was Catholic practice. It wasn't Christian.
    The bible makes it clear you have no right to force views upon
    another. You cannot force another person to love God - trying to
    shows you don't love God enough to understand that yourself.
     
  10. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2018
    Messages:
    1,250
    Ratings:
    +153
    Religion:
    None
    What? Seven authors not enough?
     
  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,937
    Ratings:
    +679
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Actually he DID practice second Temple Judaism.
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,076
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    Christian
    No one has said Jews were dumb.. They were a small tribe living in an arid, stony backwater.

    They created their history and identity to maintain their separateness .. Their laws and rituals set them apart. The Jews taken into exile in Babylon were the "good figs".. or the cream of the crop. They borrowed from the older cultures around them.

    Ancient Jerusalem: The Village, the Town, the City - Biblical Archaeology Society



    The next period Geva considers is the period of the United Monarchy, the time of King David and King Solomon and a couple centuries thereafter (1000 B.C.E. down to about the eighth century B.C.E.). In David’s time, the borders of the city did not change from the previous period.

    However, King Solomon expanded the confines of the city northward to include the Temple Mount. This increased the size of the city to about 40 acres, but the increase in population was not proportionate since much of this expansion was taken up with the Temple and royal buildings. “It is likely that Jerusalem attracted new inhabitants of different social classes,” Geva tells us. “Some of these people came to reside in the city as a consequence of their official and religious capacities, while others came to seek a livelihood in its developing economy.”

    Geva estimates the population of the city at this time at about 2,000. (Previously, other scholars had estimated the number of people living in the city at this time as 2,000, 2,500 or 4,500–5,000.)
     
  13. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,937
    Ratings:
    +679
    Religion:
    Judaism
    for the first 1054 years, "Catholic" was the only kind of Christian there was. And from 1054 to the Reformation, Catholicism was the only version of Christianity in the west. So yes, the forced conversions of the Catholic Church CAN be said to be the forced conversions of the Christian Church.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,076
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    Christian
    Of course it was Christian.. The Reformation wasn't until the 16th century.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,937
    Ratings:
    +679
    Religion:
    Judaism
    Anti-Semites have levied many absurd charges against Jews, but I don't think we've ever been accused of being dumb. Actually, we get accused of the reverse: being devilishly clever.

    What do you mean we couldn't write? What do you mean we didn't have our own language? (In addition to Hebrew, there was Yiddish in northern and eastern Europe, and Ladino in the Spanish region).

    Jews have excelled in Scholarship. This is because, beginning with the Torah schools set up by the Pharisees to see to it that all Jewish boys knew Torah, Jewish culture has always revolved around reading the sacred texts and rationally arguing about them. This has given us skills that transferred easily to other vocations.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,937
    Ratings:
    +679
    Religion:
    Judaism
    You know, if Joseph wasn't really Jesus' dad, then he didn't have a patrilineal line to David, meaning he wasn't of the tribe of Judah. You can't have it both ways.
     
  17. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,076
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    Christian
    Right.. and there's a commitment to maintaining their culture and identity over a period of nearly 3,000 years. Dumb? I don't think so.
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,076
    Ratings:
    +2,174
    Religion:
    Christian
    You got me there. I don't know much about the genealogy of Mary's father Heli aka Joachim.

    According to tradition, Saint Anne was born in Bethlehem, and married Joachim of Nazareth. Both of them were descendants of David..

    Or, it may be that the Gospel writers were working overtime to make Jesus fit the Jewish expectation of messiah.
     
  19. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    19,211
    Ratings:
    +1,580
    I usually call the 'the religion of Jesus', the religion He referred to, in other words. Since it's different from what people know of as Judaism.

    We know what Jesus taught, where it differs from Judaism.
     
    #139 Disciple of Jesus, Mar 12, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
  20. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2018
    Messages:
    1,937
    Ratings:
    +679
    Religion:
    Judaism
    The thing is, tribal lineage goes through the male line only.
     
Loading...