Jesus vs the New Testament

[blü 2]

There's tons of stuff, but my favorite will always be Jacob's prophecy
or blessing to his son Judah - the one who gave himself for his brother.
This is called the "Scepter Promise."

... while Joseph received the birthright, to Jacob’s son Judah, father of the Jews,
went the promise of a kingly line leading to the Messiah. Just before Jacob died
around 1670 B.C., he prophesied: "Judah is a lion’s whelp . . . The scepter [ruler’s
staff] shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh
comes [Shiloh meaning "Peaceable One," "Peacemaker" or "To Whom It (the Scepter)
Belongs"-thus a reference to the Messiah]; and to Him shall be the obedience of the
people" (Genesis 49:9-10).

The Scepter Promise

Have I touched upon this already with you?

Judah, symbol of the redeemer
there will be a nation of the Hebrews
with a monarchy
of a line of Judean kings
but this nation
and its monarchy
will end with the Messiah
in whom the nations (not Israel) will obey.

This speaks of the rise and fall of a Hebrew nation
and the coming Messiah as Redeemer in whom the
world will trust.

In Jacob's day the Hebrews and their servants would
have numbered maybe 75 people. In Jesus' day they
numbered about five million. But the bible says they
would always be "few in number" and live amidst the
nations as a tiny country. They will be a blessing to
the world, they will remain small in numbers. They
will reject their Messiah. They will be outcast into all
the world. They will come out of nations that are their
"graves" and they will take back their nation "with the
sword" in the days when the Gentiles no longer believe.

All this is not date stamped. It is event dependent.

My response is as outlined earlier ─ there are no prophesies in the bible whose circumstances can be independently confirmed, no reason to think any such reports are more credible than the miracle tales of the Abrahamic or any other religious tradition. Which is to say, are not credible at all.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Is Jesus contradicting Himself? Or is the new testament a faulty set of texts that don't represent the Man from Nazareth, the divine manifestation. How much of the new testament, is just straight fiction?

And no, this isn't about yoheshua being that 'rabbi', that materialists love to present as some form of quasi religion, the premise is religiously traditional, for this argument,
Divine Jesus, manifestation,
There are many things in the new testament that are valuable, however is it, as a whole, representative.


•

There are 12 NT authors, who are univocal in the gospel and doctrine. Start with Luke, who also wrote Acts, and John, who also wrote three epistles and Revelation. They have to agree, yes?

 

[pearl]

I think that's what the scene is intended to convey, yes.

Yes, at least to my understanding.

 

[sooda]

View attachment 27472



Israel became an empire under the House of David.
During a hiatus in empires during the Bronze Age
(possibly neo-Babylonian/Sumerian and the Neo
Assyrian empires) Israel filled the gap. Not only
conquering Amnon, Edom and Moab but pushing
east and northwards, all the way to the Euphrates.
At this time it was independent and united.

The stories about conquering the Canaanites are not true. Joshua had no vast army.. The "battles"were skirmishes, if that ,because none of the Canaanite cities were destroyed or even interrupted.

David's Jerusalem was a bit less than 14 acres.. and the mines of Solomon belonged to Egypt and then the Canaanites.. Lots of exaggerations to embellish their history. He is sometimes called the Bandit King.

Israel NEVER controlled the territory to the Euphrates.

 

[sooda]

There's tons of stuff, but my favorite will always be Jacob's prophecy
or blessing to his son Judah - the one who gave himself for his brother.
This is called the "Scepter Promise."

... while Joseph received the birthright, to Jacob’s son Judah, father of the Jews,
went the promise of a kingly line leading to the Messiah. Just before Jacob died
around 1670 B.C., he prophesied: "Judah is a lion’s whelp . . . The scepter [ruler’s
staff] shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh
comes [Shiloh meaning "Peaceable One," "Peacemaker" or "To Whom It (the Scepter)
Belongs"-thus a reference to the Messiah]; and to Him shall be the obedience of the
people" (Genesis 49:9-10).

The Scepter Promise

Have I touched upon this already with you?

Judah, symbol of the redeemer
there will be a nation of the Hebrews
with a monarchy
of a line of Judean kings
but this nation
and its monarchy
will end with the Messiah
in whom the nations (not Israel) will obey.

This speaks of the rise and fall of a Hebrew nation
and the coming Messiah as Redeemer in whom the
world will trust.

In Jacob's day the Hebrews and their servants would
have numbered maybe 75 people. In Jesus' day they
numbered about five million. But the bible says they
would always be "few in number" and live amidst the
nations as a tiny country. They will be a blessing to
the world, they will remain small in numbers. They
will reject their Messiah. They will be outcast into all
the world. They will come out of nations that are their
"graves" and they will take back their nation "with the
sword" in the days when the Gentiles no longer believe.

All this is not date stamped. It is event dependent.

There were NEVER 5 million people in Palestine. Maximum population was always less than 700,000.

 

[sooda]

View attachment 27472

Israel NEVER conquered Assyria.

Israel became an empire under the House of David.
During a hiatus in empires during the Bronze Age
(possibly neo-Babylonian/Sumerian and the Neo
Assyrian empires) Israel filled the gap. Not only
conquering Amnon, Edom and Moab but pushing
east and northwards, all the way to the Euphrates.
At this time it was independent and united.

The first period that Geva considers in his study is from the 18th–11th centuries B.C.E. (Middle Bronze Age II to Iron Age I, in archaeological terms), the period before the arrival of the Israelites. Jerusalem was then confined to the small spur south of the Temple Mount known today as the City of David. As Geva reminds us, even then Jerusalem “was the center of an important territorial entity.” From this period, the area includes a massive fortification system that has recently been excavated. Overall, however, the area comprises only about 11–12 acres. Geva estimates the population of the city during this period at between 500 and 700 “at most.” (Previously other prominent scholars had estimated Jerusalem’s population in this period as 880–1,100, 1,000, 2,500, 3,000; still this is hardly what we would consider a metropolis.)

Ancient Jerusalem: The Village, the Town, the City - Biblical Archaeology Society

 

[Desert Snake]

There are 12 NT authors, who are univocal in the gospel and doctrine. Start with Luke, who also wrote Acts, and John, who also wrote three epistles and Revelation. They have to agree, yes?

That is why it's most likely that Revelation 7
Is a combination of all the tribes, with Levi, included.

Otherwise, it's some form of judaism mysticism, it seems, that, doesn't seem to correlate with the Epistles, at all.

Hence why the Epistles need to be studied, not skimmed , as it were.

 

[Desert Snake]

Book of Romans, Galatians, so forth,

Where does the apostle Paul say that,
'Greeks, Jews Romans, ...not this group, determined by an idea that we don't present'...

Doesn't make sense.

 

[PruePhillip]

My response is as outlined earlier ─ there are no prophesies in the bible whose circumstances can be independently confirmed, no reason to think any such reports are more credible than the miracle tales of the Abrahamic or any other religious tradition. Which is to say, are not credible at all.

That's curious, because there exist two groups of prophecies in the bible
which have a grainy truth to them.
The first is the promised land - its ownership, its loss and its eventual recovery
The second is the Messiah - both as Redeemer and as King.

Concerning Messiah as Redeemer, the "lowly man of sorrow" who would be
rejected of his doomed people, but believed upon by the Gentiles - that has
taken place. The Messiah as King, the King who's hands they pierced, is yet to
happen (Second Coming.)

Concerning the Promised Land and the exile with the Jews returning to it
twice - three events, and all three were fulfilled. The second return is on-going.
The stories of how it all happened, though not "miraculous" (look into it) are
truly marvelous and improbable.

A good science theory should make accurate predictions. I read that ALL
the Jews will eventually be back in Israel in the "latter days." The spike in
antisemitism (60% last year in my Australia, 75% in France) makes me
wonder if this process of a complete return is still on-going.

Don't know what this battle of Armageddon is about, but the Ezekiel 38,39
war is highly plausible - something which could happen tomorrow.

I know of no other way to test a prophecy.

 

[PruePhillip]

There were NEVER 5 million people in Palestine. Maximum population was always less than 700,000.

We can't be sure, but over a million died in the first Roman war.
There was a vast diaspora into the Roman and Parthian empires,
and many Jews lived in Egypt.

 

[PruePhillip]

The stories about conquering the Canaanites are not true. Joshua had no vast army.. The "battles"were skirmishes, if that ,because none of the Canaanite cities were destroyed or even interrupted.

David's Jerusalem was a bit less than 14 acres.. and the mines of Solomon belonged to Egypt and then the Canaanites.. Lots of exaggerations to embellish their history. He is sometimes called the Bandit King.

Israel NEVER controlled the territory to the Euphrates.

Okay, you are fighting history there. Some will fall to the Maximalist side of the bible
and others fall to the Minimalist. That's yours and my situation.
As someone who is engaged in science I notice that over time our assessments of
things suggest that things of the past were longer, older, bigger, more extensive and
more marvelous than we first thought. That goes from life on earth, the age of the
universe, the extent of Bronze Age cultures, the earliest cities, the extent of sciences
and technology etc etc etc.. We are slowly learning that is also the case with the bible.

 

[blü 2]

That's curious, because there exist two groups of prophecies in the bible which have a grainy truth to them.
The first is the promised land - its ownership, its loss and its eventual recovery

Tell it to the Palestinians.

And as I said, it's the Muslims who possess the lands from the Nile to the Euphrates. The Christians scarcely get a look in.

The second is the Messiah - both as Redeemer and as King.

The Jesus of the bible is a fiction composed out of parts of the Tanakh which this or that author thought could be used as a messianic prophecy.

If there was an historical Jesus in there, we don't know anything about him, and neither did Paul or the authors of the gospels.

As for his being a 'redeemer', what is it that humans need to be 'redeemed' from, and what is the evidence that if they need to be redeemed, they ever have been?

Don't forget to account for, eg, the Indians, Chinese and Mongolians, and the tribes of North and South America, southern Africa, southern Asia, and so on, in your reply ─ they've never heard of such a thing.

 

[PruePhillip]

Tell it to the Palestinians.
And as I said, it's the Muslims who possess the lands from the Nile to the Euphrates. The Christians scarcely get a look in.

The Palestinians are Muslim Arabs who settled in the Levant
or who were converted (perhaps by force) to Islam. Imagine,
forced conversion - sounds like an oxymoron.
I am sure lots of other nations reached the Euphrates. That's
not the point. On the scale of things, that Solomon map above
does seem rather tame. And it wasn't through real conquest,
rather an opportunity to occupy land that wasn't under imperial
control by anyone at the time.
It's the denial of this which annoys me.

 

[PruePhillip]

If there was an historical Jesus in there, we don't know anything about him, and neither did Paul or the authors of the gospels.

It's strange that people deny there ever was a Jesus of Nazareth. On the
sole basis of impact he's the most important historical figure in Western
history.
Yes, Paul didn't meet him. Neither did Luke.
Just learned this - Mark didn't know Jesus either.
But Peter, John and Matthew were in his Ministry. The names on the Gospels
are not important, but they were associated with these figures for a reason.
No-one has tried to put a name on the author of Hebrews. No-one knows if
James was the brother of Jesus. No-one knows if Peter contributed to any
Gospel. So if someone connects a name, ie John, to a Gospel I suggest we
take the connection a tad more seriously.

 

[PruePhillip]

As for his being a 'redeemer', what is it that humans need to be 'redeemed' from, and what is the evidence that if they need to be redeemed, they ever have been?
Don't forget to account for, eg, the Indians, Chinese and Mongolians, and the tribes of North and South America, southern Africa, southern Asia, and so on, in your reply ─ they've never heard of such a thing.

When you ask "what is the evidence" I have to say "I haven't looked into it."
because I don't base faith upon evidence, or more correctly, biblical evidence.
But people who assert "there's no evidence" for such and such an event or
figure don't change their mind if that event or figure later turns up. So there's
an element of dishonesty in all this.

It's good to balance any reading of skeptic material on the bible with faith-based
reading too. I subscribed to Biblical Archaeology for some time. I was surprised
how much evidence there actually was.

Asking about Indians, Chinese etc.. Can't pretend to understand this but there
comes a time when the Gospel is preached. Jesus said that this "Gospel will be
preached in all the world", so what happens to those prior to this preaching? It
says that "God knows those who love Him."

 

[Thief]

Is Jesus contradicting Himself? Or is the new testament a faulty set of texts that don't represent the Man from Nazareth, the divine manifestation. How much of the new testament, is just straight fiction?

And no, this isn't about yoheshua being that 'rabbi', that materialists love to present as some form of quasi religion, the premise is religiously traditional, for this argument,
Divine Jesus, manifestation,
There are many things in the new testament that are valuable, however is it, as a whole, representative.


•

not yet casting a vote......

Christian DOGMA is poor description

the testaments describe a Man of strength.....fearing no one
a Man of mind and spirit

people are sheep
they want to be led about
and they want that Good Shepard

they want to believe the image they hold is to their benefit
and no harm is coming their way

nothing could be further from the truth

Jesus had a ministry of correction

and when the time comes.....I shall be corrected

 

[sooda]

Okay, you are fighting history there. Some will fall to the Maximalist side of the bible
and others fall to the Minimalist. That's yours and my situation.
As someone who is engaged in science I notice that over time our assessments of
things suggest that things of the past were longer, older, bigger, more extensive and
more marvelous than we first thought. That goes from life on earth, the age of the
universe, the extent of Bronze Age cultures, the earliest cities, the extent of sciences
and technology etc etc etc.. We are slowly learning that is also the case with the bible.


View attachment 27485

Even if you don't go with the minimalist POV.. Jerusalem was tiny and had a population of less than 2000. So what the heck happened to the 2 million Israelites who left Egypt?

Very little in the OT is true. Its a nationalistic narrative to portray themselves as a mighty force of affluent conquerors.

There was NOTHING grand about Israel .. not even in the time of Solomon.

 

[PruePhillip]

Even if you don't go with the minimalist POV.. Jerusalem was tiny and had a population of less than 2000. So what the heck happened to the 2 million Israelites who left Egypt?

Very little in the OT is true. Its a nationalistic narrative to portray themselves as a mighty force of affluent conquerors.

There was NOTHING grand about Israel .. not even in the time of Solomon.

I recall reading the death toll from the first Roman War was over a million Jews.
We will never know how many people lived in Jerusalem. The variation in numbers
staggers me - from 30,000 to 600,000.
Doesn't matter. Got nothing to do with the bible's story.
The Old Testament was not nationalist. It condemned the Jewish people all the
time. Time and time again the Jews were conquered, carried into captivity, died
by the sword and famine and lost ten of the twelve tribes. Worse, it was said
they would reject their own Messiah and be scattered all over the world. This
happened, and it doesn't sound nationalistic to me.

 

[sooda]

We can't be sure, but over a million died in the first Roman war.
There was a vast diaspora into the Roman and Parthian empires,
and many Jews lived in Egypt.

More grandiose lies. There were NEVER a million people in Palestine much less a million Jews. Jerusalem was a tiny whistlestop on the trade route to Babylon. It never had a population of more than 2,000.

By the time of Christ there were large Jewish communities in Alexandria, Aleppo, Damascus, Persia, Anatolia, Rome and Elephantine Island. There was NO forced diaspora.

 

[PruePhillip]

More grandiose lies. There were NEVER a million people in Palestine much less a million Jews. Jerusalem was a tiny whistlestop on the trade route to Babylon. It never had a population of more than 2,000.

By the time of Christ there were large Jewish communities in Alexandria, Aleppo, Damascus, Persia, Anatolia, Rome and Elephantine Island. There was NO forced diaspora.

Well you will have to argue that the Pharisee turned Roman Historian
Josephus Flavius. He witnessed the invasion of Israel and destruction
of Jerusalem and its temple.
Up against him is a small armada of 20th and 21st Century skeptics
who have an issue with the bible.

Israel had a thriving diaspora in Jesus' day. Made no difference to the
population of Israel though.
There has long been a mystery as to the Jewish s population. Some
figures cite 5 million. China had about 20 million if I recall but today
China has 1500 million. The mystery - why aren't there more Jews
around today? The bible said the Jews would be "small in number"
so what happened? Conversion, conquest, exile, assimilation was
the answer. Despite Jewish DNA being everywhere (inc msyelf)
there are only a few million Jews today - they remain a symbol of
the Jew. We do know of one tribe, the Levites still present in the
DNA, going back to Aaron, Moses' brother.