Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[rrobs]

* (Romans 6:3-6) comes long before (Rom.10;9,10)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.



How do men get "INTO CHRIST"?


1. By Believing
2. By Confessing
3. By Baptism

I can find believing and confessing in Romans 10:9. But, try as I may, I just can't see anything about baptism there.

Could belief + confession = baptism? Also repentance is changing one's mind. In this case changing from being one's own lord to making Jesus Lord.

Summary: by believing and confessing one repents of their old way of thinking and they are baptized in holy spirit.

 

[e.r.m.]

I can find believing and confessing in Romans 10:9. But, try as I may, I just can't see anything about baptism there.

Could belief + confession = baptism? Also repentance is changing one's mind. In this case changing from being one's own lord to making Jesus Lord.

Summary: by believing and confessing one repents of their old way of thinking and they are baptized in holy spirit.

Baptism is mentioned in Paul's own story after he had believed and confessed with his mouth the Lord Jesus, then he was baptized. Acts 22:8, 10, 16.

 

[rrobs]

Rrobs,
I believe it is the "by grace alone' through faith alone" group who has added to Romans 10:9, by adding the exclusive element, for which there are no words in the verse. How could Paul be prescribing a "That's it, and that's all" meaning to Romans 10:9 when it did not even apply to himself? Saul believed in his heart and confessed with his mouth the Lord Jesus Acts 22:8, 10 but his sins were still not washed away three days later. Acts 22:16. Now what the verse does say
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Believing Jesus and surrendering to Him as Lord led him to being saved (...you "will" be saved; ) The verse itself played out as such, but Paul never said Romans 10:9 was all.

Rom 10:9,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, and some other things, thou shalt be saved.
​

???????????

If you can't accept that Acts was a transition book, that the Jews whose doctrine had been established for thousands of years did not instantly know the new doctrine and put it into practice overnight, then I think it is necessary to change other parts of the new doctrine such as Romans 10:9 so that it conforms to the old doctrine. While it is necessary to do so to fit a preconceived idea, I don't believe the scriptures actually do that.

I believe God got Romans 10:9 right and it doesn't need any modification by the church.

God bless

 

[e.r.m.]

Rom 10:9,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, and some other things, thou shalt be saved.
​

???????????

If you can't accept that Acts was a transition book, that the Jews whose doctrine had been established for thousands of years did not instantly know the new doctrine and put it into practice overnight, then I think it is necessary to change other parts of the new doctrine such as Romans 10:9 so that it conforms to the old doctrine. While it is necessary to do so to fit a preconceived idea, I don't believe the scriptures actually do that.

I believe God got Romans 10:9 right and it doesn't need any modification by the church.

God bless

I've already addressed the transition book argument fallacy. You went right back to that argument without justifying its faults.

I agree that God got Romans 10:9 right. It does not need any modification by the evangelical church. So stop trying to "add" the exclusivity, where none is stated.

Paul throughout agreed with what Ananias taught him.
Romans 6:4-7 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [6] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [7] for he who has died is freed from sin.

Because you have established a precedent of going back to old arguments as if they have not been addressed, I will repeat what I said before: There is a likeness to His death in baptism in water. There is no a likeness to His death in baptism with the Holy Spirit. Neither Paul nor anyone else in the Bible "adjusted" baptism away from what Ananias told Saul.
That remained the same all throughout.
There is no baptism in Jesus's name in water unrelated to being saved neither in the scriptures, and not up until the Pre-reformation, at earliest.

But I see your pattern, which is when cornered, just jump to another argument, without addressing the debunks of said arguments, and keep mentioning old (debunked) arguments as if it's the first time. This is a pattern (amongst others) I've seen amongst the "by grace alone, through faith alone" community.

 

[Nova2216]

I can find believing and confessing in Romans 10:9. But, try as I may, I just can't see anything about baptism there.

Could belief + confession = baptism? Also repentance is changing one's mind. In this case changing from being one's own lord to making Jesus Lord.

Summary: by believing and confessing one repents of their old way of thinking and they are baptized in holy spirit.

I will use your logic on the word "repentance".

The word "repentance" is not found in the book of John, therefore repentance is not required for salvation.


I know that kind of logic is wrong b/c of what I find in other scriptures in the NT.

...except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)


We must keep in mind what (Mt.4:4) teaches.

...It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


Now you are trying to cram repentance in (Rom.10:9,10)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


(Rom.10,9,10) says nothing about Holy Spirit baptism.

Therefore according to your logic Holy Spirit baptism is not required for salvation. If water baptism is not required then Holy Spirit baptism is not required for salvation. According to (Rom.10:9,10).



It seems your still between a rock and a hard place.



Thanks for posting.

 

[rrobs]

I've already addressed the transition book argument fallacy. You went right back to that argument without justifying its faults.

The change between the old and new was incredibly huge and breathtaking. To think it was absorbed by the apostles overnight is a complete denial of human nature and reality. Add to that the propensity of the Jews to not understand, believe, and act upon the things of God, and it seems unthinkable that they suddenly knew and understood the whole enchilada.

It took several years for Paul to reveal the greatness of the new and then more time for the early Christians to absorb it. Why is that so hard to understand?

 

[rrobs]

I've already addressed the transition book argument fallacy. You went right back to that argument without justifying its faults.

I agree that God got Romans 10:9 right. It does not need any modification by the evangelical church. So stop trying to "add" the exclusivity, where none is stated.

Paul throughout agreed with what Ananias taught him.
Romans 6:4-7 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, [6] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; [7] for he who has died is freed from sin.

Because you have established a precedent of going back to old arguments as if they have not been addressed, I will repeat what I said before: There is a likeness to His death in baptism in water. There is no a likeness to His death in baptism with the Holy Spirit. Neither Paul nor anyone else in the Bible "adjusted" baptism away from what Ananias told Saul.
That remained the same all throughout.
There is no baptism in Jesus's name in water unrelated to being saved neither in the scriptures, and not up until the Pre-reformation, at earliest.

But I see your pattern, which is when cornered, just jump to another argument, without addressing the debunks of said arguments, and keep mentioning old (debunked) arguments as if it's the first time. This is a pattern (amongst others) I've seen amongst the "by grace alone, through faith alone" community.

Heb 9:9-10,

9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.​

If that doesn't say that water baptism was merely a type or figure pointing to the real deal in holy spirit (as both John the Baptist and Jesus said), I don't know how to read English.

 

[rrobs]

I will use your logic on the word "repentance".

The word "repentance" is not found in the book of John, therefore repentance is not required for salvation.

I know that kind of logic is wrong b/c of what I find in other scriptures in the NT.

...except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)

We must keep in mind what (Mt.4:4) teaches.

...It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.


Now you are trying to cram repentance in (Rom.10:9,10)

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

(Rom.10,9,10) says nothing about Holy Spirit baptism.

Therefore according to your logic Holy Spirit baptism is not required for salvation. If water baptism is not required then Holy Spirit baptism is not required for salvation. According to (Rom.10:9,10).

It seems your still between a rock and a hard place.

Thanks for posting.

I didn't say repentance is required or not required. I said that repentance is confessing and believing.

When one confesses Jesus as Lord and believes God raised him from the dead, they are repenting. Once one repents then they are baptized, not in symbolic water, but in the real holy spirit. That is being saved.

 

[Nova2216]

I didn't say repentance is required or not required. I said that repentance is confessing and believing.

When one confesses Jesus as Lord and believes God raised him from the dead, they are repenting. Once one repents then they are baptized, not in symbolic water, but in the real holy spirit. That is being saved.

Confession and belief is not repentance.

We learn of repentance in (Mt.21:28)

28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first.

Notice all the verbs in this lesson of repentance.


(Rom.10:9,10) teaches one must confess Jesus is the Son of God.

Since you believe and teach this, am I to believe you are not a part of the grace alone / faith alone group.

Confession is something men do.


Are you teaching a works based salvation?

 

[Nova2216]

I didn't say repentance is required or not required. I said that repentance is confessing and believing.

When one confesses Jesus as Lord and believes God raised him from the dead, they are repenting. Once one repents then they are baptized, not in symbolic water, but in the real holy spirit. That is being saved.

* Your argument was that (Rom.10:9,10) did not mention baptism (in water) and therefore you thought b/c of this baptism (in water) has nothing to do with the salvation process.

So I used your argument and applied it to the book of John.

The book of John does not mention "repentance".

Since John does not mention "repentance" that means it is not necessary for salvation.

We know that is not true b/c of what (Luke 13:3) says.

... ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)



You were not thinking ahead when you made that argument.

Because when you did, that also ruled out Holy Spirit baptism.

(Rom.10:9,10) does not mention Holy Spirit baptism.


It seems you are still between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Nova2216]

The change between the old and new was incredibly huge and breathtaking. To think it was absorbed by the apostles overnight is a complete denial of human nature and reality. Add to that the propensity of the Jews to not understand, believe, and act upon the things of God, and it seems unthinkable that they suddenly knew and understood the whole enchilada.

It took several years for Paul to reveal the greatness of the new and then more time for the early Christians to absorb it. Why is that so hard to understand?

TRANSLATION - Just do not believe what you read in the book of Acts.

Isn't that what you mean Rob?

 

[rrobs]

Confession and belief is not repentance.

We learn of repentance in (Mt.21:28)

28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first.

That is a parable. What is the actual will of God if not believing and confessing to be saved as per Romans?

Romans is the guidebook for Christian life, not the gospels. It lays out in the most simple terms the depraved life man and how to fix the problem of sin and death.

Doing the will of the father in our age of grace is stated in plain language in Romans 10:9-10. If you want to be saved, believe and confess. Anything beyond that may feel good, but it adds not one wit to that which one gets when the believe in confess.

 

[YoursTrue]

* Your argument was that (Rom.10:9,10) did not mention baptism (in water) and therefore you thought b/c of this baptism (in water) has nothing to do with the salvation process.

So I used your argument and applied it to the book of John.

The book of John does not mention "repentance".

Since John does not mention "repentance" that means it is not necessary for salvation.

We know that is not true b/c of what (Luke 13:3) says.

... ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)



You were not thinking ahead when you made that argument.

Because when you did, that also ruled out Holy Spirit baptism.

(Rom.10:9,10) does not mention Holy Spirit baptism.


It seems you are still between a rock and a hard place.

I have a question. Does this mean that those who did not get baptized and died will not be saved?

 

[Nova2216]

I have a question. Does this mean that those who did not get baptized and died will not be saved?

Baptism Saves (1Peter 3:20,21).

Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:15,16)


Thanks for posting.

 

[YoursTrue]

Baptism Saves (1Peter 3:20,21).

Believe + Baptism = Saved (Mark 16:15,16)


Thanks for posting.

I understand that. But what about those who were not baptized? What do you believe will happen to them?

 

[e.r.m.]

TRANSLATION - Just do not believe what you read in the book of Acts.

Isn't that what you mean Rob?

Not necessarily. Just the things in Acts that disagree with the "by grace alone, through alone" paradigm.

 

[Nova2216]

1. (Titus 2:11,12) ties the grace of God and the works of men beautifully together to help save men.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

For the grace of God

appeared to all men

Teaching us

that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts

we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;



Notice though grace appeared to all men,

all men will not be saved.

WHY?

B/c all men will not obey the will of the Lord (Mt.7:21) (2Thess.1:7-9) (Acts 28:24).

But those who accept the instructions of the Lord given by (or through) grace will do as the Lord commands.


What are our commands?

Grace Teaches us

...that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts...

...we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;...



19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: (Mt.28:18-20)



Thanks

 

[Nova2216]

I understand that. But what about those who were not baptized? What do you believe will happen to them?

Evidently you do not understand (1Peter 3:20,21) or (Mark 16:15,16).

One must be lost to be saved.

These verses teach one how to be saved.

Before one obeys them he must be lost.


True or False




Thanks

 

[e.r.m.]

I understand that. But what about those who were not baptized? What do you believe will happen to them?

I agree with Nova2216.
Before one is saved, they are lost Romans 3:23. Believe and baptism in Jesus is to be saved from this lost state.

One final fate will be left up to God, but we're not going to judgement day blind, God gives us his word so that we can go there with confidence. All we can do is teach what the Bible says. Along the same line, no one can (accurately) offer assurances to anyone, saying "you're saved" outside of God's word (not baptized). Nor can anyone (accurately) take assurance that they're saved outside of God's word (not baptized).

 

[YoursTrue]

Evidently you do not understand (1Peter 3:20,21) or (Mark 16:15,16).

One must be lost to be saved.

These verses teach one how to be saved.

Before one obeys them he must be lost.


True or False




Thanks

What happens, in your opinion, to those that were not baptized and died before Jesus?