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Featured Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Nova2216, May 22, 2020.

  1. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Member

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    In (John 19:30) Jesus said "it is finished".

    Some claim this means man need not do anything to be saved, but then they go on to say you must believe.

    Why do I need to believe if Jesus done it all on the cross?

    (Jn.19:30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


    Please notice that belief is a work according to (Jn. 6:28,29)..

    28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


    Friends, belief is a work. That means all those who teach one must believe to be saved is teaching they must do something in order to be saved.


    That is not salvation by grace alone.




    Thanks
     
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  2. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    Jesus physical life was finished.
     
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  3. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    As well as having no clear idea what "to be saved" means, I have no clear idea why, if Jesus "died for our sins", you have to believe in Jesus to obtain whatever benefit follows from that.

    EITHER Jesus' death was applicable to all, God's gift to humanity as such, OR it was simply a recruiting device for a particular school of thought.

    The former is generous, gracious, benevolent. The latter is narrow, self-serving, manipulative.
     
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  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    Agreed.....but we must define what it means to "believe".

    James 2:19-22, 26....
    "You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works......Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

    "Grace" is not a license to sin. But "believing" alone is not enough either. Actions are involved.
    Is belief an action....? Or is it the works that are prompted by beliefs that put one in line for salvation?

    e.g. when Jesus related the parable of the Good Samaritan, did the Samaritan just have faith in God and believe that God would take care of the injured man? Or did he take steps at his own expense to make sure that the man's immediate needs were cared for?

    When James spoke of Abraham as a model in this regard, he said..."Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works."

    Believing is just the beginning....not the end of anything. Its the same thing as "having" a dog, compared to "exercising" your dog......you have to take it for a walk. ....not just letting it sleep at your feet all day.
     
    #4 Deeje, May 22, 2020
    Last edited: May 22, 2020
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  5. InChrist

    InChrist Free4ever

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    Jesus meant, the debt of humanity’s sin had been paid in full...

    “the Greek word translated “it is finished” is tetelestai, an accounting term that means “paid in full.” When Jesus uttered those words, He was declaring the debt owed to His Father was wiped away completely and forever. Not that Jesus wiped away any debt that He owed to the Father; rather, Jesus eliminated the debt owed by mankind—the debt of sin.”

    What did Jesus mean when He said, “It is finished”? | GotQuestions.org
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Right on. And many fail to realize the relationship between the words "faith" and "faithful." You can't claim to have faith in Christ unless you are faithful to Him, and being faithful to Him means living as He taught us to live, being willing to walk the walk and not just talk the talk.
     
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  7. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    If you read the bible and know that it is a self contradicted statement...for if God says that all of his children are without sin...then how can sin be forgiven if we had no sin in the first instance.

    Data document..after the fact.

    Human truth own origin of self first and natural before any science theme can be thought upon or posed....then a theory, then a building machine in the string of the theory to the reaction of the string of the theory.

    Said by the fake God self man/male who says in the document self recording by AI machine encoded causes....I am not God...yet today still wants to argue about it...claiming that he was innocent for sacrificing his own life.

    As the conscious ideal....how can I be guilty if I did not in fact own any of the origin of SIN....being O God angel/fallen angel of God the eternal fallen O body of God the burnt body and dead body..that once owned burning alight light...natural light that we use today...but went cold gas and cold gas pressurized becomes mass in space?

    You have to own MASS O before you can change it go get energy...for energy is MASS as said. We are standing on that energy mass O stone God body.

    Therefore science owns its own realization of being a self contradicting liar...and the Son of destruction who claimed he was creating, when he never did.
     
  8. Hockeycowboy

    Hockeycowboy Well-Known Member
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    After quoting the Scripture. You started out saying “some claim.”

    As in, interpretation.

    As in, opinion.

    A dime a dozen!
     
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  9. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Member

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    Good points.

    Are you aware that the word "belief" (pistis) can be correctly translated as "obey"?
     
  10. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Member

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  11. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You have a different word there. peithō is not "belief". It means:
    1. "persuade
      1. to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe

      2. to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one

      3. to tranquillise

      4. to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something."

    Strongs does not list "obey" in its definition of pisteuō which occurs 244 times in the NASB and is translated.....

    "πιστεύω pisteúō, pist-yoo'-o; from G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ):—believe(-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with."

    All the verses in which this word appears are all translated as above. I can't find an "obey" in there....
    You have your Greek words a bit muddled I think.
     
  12. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    Right. Jesus finished the debt. We are not in sin any more. Nice man. It was such a burden, they could hardly breathe. Jesus' Story and that of our sin is finished. So what now? Does he want a pay-back?
     
    #12 Aupmanyav, May 23, 2020
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  13. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting that you take the verses (John 6:28-29) to prove we must work for our salvation. Yet, those verses are saying just the opposite of that. Jesus had just said in (6:27) to "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life...." To which they asked, "...What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" Jesus then said, "...This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

    You enter into God's work. You believe. Jesus did not say 'here is your work to do'. Jesus is making sure they understand, it is not your work that obtains the salvation.

    When Christ said, 'It is finished', He was declaring that that which was necessary to accomplish the salvation, that work of God, was finished. No believer did help or has ever helped God out in getting that done. That was and is His work to do.

    Belief is not a work. Just because it is something you exercise does not make it a work. You're not helping God out when you believe. Belief or faith is the key that causes you to enter into eternal salvation. And do not fool yourself that you deserve some credit for your faith. You do not. Even that is God's gift to you. (Eph. 2:8-9) So, you believe? Rejoice that God has gifted you with that.

    I know. I hear the swords being unsheathed already concerning works and the book of (James) etc. etc. But all that is after the fact of our salvation being accomplished by God. We then walk in that salvation whereby works play a role. But we can do that because we walk in the completed work of God. And none of our works adds anything to God's completed work.

    You describe a 'works based' salvation. Thus you can lose your salvation.

    I describe a 'faith based' salvation. Thus you cannot lose it.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
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  14. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't said you are not in sin any more. Wasn't said 'Jesus Story and that of our sin is finished'. What was said is the price has been paid.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
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  15. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Member

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    Thanks for posting.

    Strong's Number: 3982 Browse Lexicon
    Original Word Word Origin
    peiqo a primary verb
    Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
    Peitho 6:1,818
    Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
    pi'-tho Verb
    Definition

    persuade
    to persuade, i.e. to induce one by words to believe
    to make friends of, to win one's favour, gain one's good will, or to seek to win one, strive to please one
    to tranquillise
    to persuade unto i.e. move or induce one to persuasion to do something
    be persuaded
    to be persuaded, to suffer one's self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: to have faith: in a thing
    to believe
    to be persuaded of a thing concerning a person
    to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with
    to trust, have confidence, be confident

    NAS Word Usage - Total: 52


    I am not a Greek Scholar but I think the word "Peitho" is the root word in which pistis derives from.

    They both can mean "obey".

    That was my point.
     
  16. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    This is the part I don't understand.

    I've often heard it said that Jesus died for everyone's sins.

    But you say that's wrong? That Jesus died for the sins of his friends and everyone else can make their own arrangements?

    Why would you have to believe in Jesus to receive this benefit? What if you live somewhere where they still haven't heard of Jesus? It's a very old question. A form of it even pops up in the lyrics of Jesus Christ, Superstar:

    You'd have managed better if you'd had it planned.
    Why'd you choose such a backward time in such a strange land?
    If you'd come today you could have reached a whole nation.
    Israel in 4 BC had no mass communication…

    And you've probably come across the 'harrowing of Hell' legend, which says that, having been crucified on Friday, on Saturday Jesus went down to Hell and released all the good people who'd lived before he came, before returning and resurrecting on the Sunday.

    None of that would be a problem ─ instead it would all follow automatically ─ if Jesus died for everyone's sins.

    Is it your view that all the Jews, whom the bible unequivocally identifies as God's Chosen People, are in Hell because they didn't and don't acknowledge Jesus as their savior?
     
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  17. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Member

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    (Heb 11) describes the kind of faith which saves. It includes works the Lord commanded men to do.

    In (Jn 6:28,29) they asked -

    What shall we do?

    The Lord called belief a work.

    28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
    29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


    What does (Acts 2:40) mean?

    40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

    What does (1Peter 1:22) mean?

    22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth

    Once again, If Jesus done it all then there is no need to believe.


    Thanks
     
  18. Nova2216

    Nova2216 Member

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    One other point is that the word "Believe" can be used as a synechdoche.

    A synecdoche is a figure of speech in which a term for a part of something refers to the whole of something or vice versa.


    In other words the one word "believe" can represent the whole plan of salvation.

    People need to know this very important point.

    At times any of the other steps of salvation can be used as a synecdoche. (Believe, confess, repent, baptism)


    Thanks
     
  19. Aupmanyav

    Aupmanyav Be your own guru

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    No. That would be too much to expect from prophets / sons / messengers / manifestations / mahdis of Abrahamic religions. They must be paid back, otherwise no heaven.
     
  20. Good-Ole-Rebel

    Good-Ole-Rebel Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe I said that was wrong that Jesus died for everyone's sin. He did. Your next question is all important, however. "Why would you have to believe in Jesus to receive this benefit.?"

    Jesus died in a 'Federal' sense. One representing all. There are only two men representing the human race in a Federal manner. Adam and Christ. Because Adam sinned, all born of him are sinners. You didn't get to make the decision on your own. You are born that way because your Federal head, Adam, sinned. If you're born of Adam, you're a sinner.

    Enter Jesus Christ the last representative of the human race. He is unstained with Adam's sin via the virgin birth. Because He is not stained with Adam's sin, He can be a sacrifice for others, for sin. And so He was. He paid the penalty for all sin. But, as this is done through and in a Federal sense, to benefit from this this one must be 'in Christ'. Just like you're a sinner due to Adams sin, and in Adam, you're born of Adam. To have Christ's sacrifice applied to you, and righteousness applied to you, you must be born of Christ, and in Christ.

    So, all of us who are in Adam, the birthing room is when the woman bears the child. That places us under the Federal headship of Adam. Sinners, just like he was. Nothing you can do can get you out of Adam. You can be a bad person. You can be a good person. You're still in Adam, a sinner and separated from God.

    Again, enter Jesus Christ the 'Last Adam'. (1 Cor. 15:22), (1 Cor. 15:45). In the Messianic Psalm, (Psalm 2:7), God says, "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." What day is God talking about? It is not the virgin birth when Christ was born into this world. It is the resurrection. (Acts 13:33) "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee."

    Thus you have two representatives of the human race. One in sin. One in righteousness. The birthing room of one is the physical birth. The birthing room of the other is the resurrection. A child of Adam is born due to the union of a man and woman. A child of God is born due to faith in the promised Saviour resulting in their being 'born-again'. (1 Peter 1:3) "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus from the dead."

    In other words, it is never just a question of 'did Jesus pay for all sins'. He did. It is a question of who you are in. Adam or Christ?

    It doesn't matter if a person is Jew or Gentile. If they have not come by faith to God, then they haven't come and are lost. Today the same is true. Jew or Gentile. If you reject Jesus Christ then you are not saved. You're still in Adam.

    Good-Ole-Rebel
     
    #20 Good-Ole-Rebel, May 23, 2020
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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