Jesus Said "It Is Finished"

[rrobs]

That's theorizing, and you can't (accurately) build a doctrine on theorizing. You need an explicit verse to conform that.
And then there are verses like
1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a CHOSEN RACE, A royal priesthood, A holy NATION, a PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; [10] for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY

If they were saved since thousands of years before they were born, they wouldn't then not be a people of God and then be a people of God again. As well as other verses that talk about before and after (e.g. - Ephesians 2:3-5).

Here is a couple of other verses that I think would be relevant.

Titus 1:2-3,

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
​

1 Pet 1:18-20,

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,​

God calls things that be not as though they were (Rom 4:17). Once He gets an idea it's as good as done, in this case the logos which was with Him in the beginning, but it is not manifested until some time later.

I think it may depend on who's point of view we take, our own or God's. Some scriptures are from our point of view, while others must be from God's point of view.

Do you have any alternative meaning to these verse as well as Romans 4:17 and Ephesians 1:4 and how they may fit with the verses you correctly pointed out?

 

[Nova2216]

4 According as he hath chosen "US" in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Eph.1:4)

"US" refers to "The Church" (or The Kingdom). (Mt.16:18,19) (Col.1:18,24) (Eph.1:22,23)

God is not choosing CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS to be lost and saved.

The Lord allows men to choose what they want.

The word "WHOSOEVER" helps us to realize this.

Notice also (Eph.1:8-11 ; 3:8-11).

God PREDESTINED a certain KIND of people who would be saved. (a certain group)

Salvation is in HIS CHURCH. (2Tim.2:10) (Acts 2:38,47)

Being "in Christ" and being "in the church" are one in the same thing. (Gal.3:27) (Rom.6:3-6)

It's important to note that Satan has CONFUSED how one enters the Lords church.

Satan has people thinking there are MANY WAYS of being saved instead of ONE PLAN of salvation (1Cor.1:10) (Phil.3:16-19).

...that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (1Cor.1:10)


16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)



Thanks

 

[e.r.m.]

How do you take Romans 4:17 and Ephesians 1:4? Do they have any bearing on what we are discussing?

Take care.

I've addressed Ephesians 1-4 and Romans 4:17 in my previous couple of posts. Please re-read.

 

[Nova2216]

Rob, Why can you not answer the simple question of when your sins were forgiven?

 

[e.r.m.]

Here is a couple of other verses that I think would be relevant.

Titus 1:2-3,

2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
​

1 Pet 1:18-20,

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,​

God calls things that be not as though they were (Rom 4:17). Once He gets an idea it's as good as done, in this case the logos which was with Him in the beginning, but it is not manifested until some time later.

I think it may depend on who's point of view we take, our own or God's. Some scriptures are from our point of view, while others must be from God's point of view.

I will go over this. And you also address the verses that I put in there or this will be my last post on this matter.

 

[rrobs]

4 According as he hath chosen "US" in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (Eph.1:4)

"US" refers to "The Church" (or The Kingdom). (Mt.16:18,19) (Col.1:18,24) (Eph.1:22,23)

Eph 1:1,

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
​

According to verse 1 Paul was talking to saints and faithful, both people. He spoke of them in the plural, "us," simply because there were more than one saint and faithful person in Ephesus to who who was speaking.

Read ahead to verse 5, still talking about "us."

Eph 1:5,

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
​

God predestines people to adoption, not a church. It's true, as you say, that we all form the church of the body of Christ, but the uses of the word "us" in the scriptures (in any body of writing in fact) is quite variable. It, like all pronouns, must be connected with the correct antecedent which must be determined by context.

Since the immediate context, both before and after verse 4 refers to people I don't see why it should suddenly change the reference "us" from individuals to a church.

God knows every hair on every one of His child's head. He definitely deals with people. That's all He ever really wanted. I guess He likes us.

 

[Nova2216]

Eph 1:1,

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
​

According to verse 1 Paul was talking to saints and faithful, both people. He spoke of them in the plural, "us," simply because there were more than one saint and faithful person in Ephesus to who who was speaking.

Read ahead to verse 5, still talking about "us."

Eph 1:5,

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
​

God predestines people to adoption, not a church. It's true, as you say, that we all form the church of the body of Christ, but the uses of the word "us" in the scriptures (in any body of writing in fact) is quite variable. It, like all pronouns, must be connected with the correct antecedent which must be determined by context.

Since the immediate context, both before and after verse 4 refers to people I don't see why it should suddenly change the reference "us" from individuals to a church.

God knows every hair on every one of His child's head. He definitely deals with people. That's all He ever really wanted. I guess He likes us.

*THE CHURCH IN EPHESUS* (Eph.1:1,22,23)

* Us = The Church (for the people are the church)

The Church = The Saved (Acts 2:38,47)

The Saved are located in a certain location "in Christ" according to (2Tim.2:10).

To be "in Christ" = To be "in the Church"

The Lord decided to build His church before the universe was formed (Eph.1:8-11 ; 3:8-11).

Any person who obeys the will of the Lord will be added to the church (the kingdom).

Some were added to the kingdom (or the church) in the first century according to (Col.1:13).

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: (Col.1:13)

The question is, how does one become a member of the Lord's church?

ApologeticsPress.org

 

[rrobs]

Now you are trying to "crawfish" (walk it back)

Because I quoted a verse? That's all I did, you know. How you get all these wild accusations is beyond me. Glad you're not my savior and judge.

 

[Nova2216]

None of the above.

Eph 1:4,

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
​

That's a big part of the Paul's mystery I mentioned earlier.

*

I asked you a question.

When were your sins forgiven?

1. 1000s of years before you were ever born or sinned
2. Belief
3. confession
4. Repentance
5. Baptism


You answered with none of the above and the verse below.


(Eph.1:4).

... hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, ...



Then I posted (Heb.9:22).

...without shedding of blood is no remission.

Your answer was obvious when you posted (Eph.1:4).

Your point was that your sins were forgiven BEFORE Christ ever shed his blood.

(Heb.9:22) clearly proves that is an impossibility.


Now you see the power of one scripture.


You are now "crawfishin" (walking it back).



Thanks

 

[rrobs]

*
Then I posted (Heb.9:22).

...without shedding of blood is no remission.

Your answer was obvious when you posted (Eph.1:4).

Your point was that your sins were forgiven BEFORE Christ ever shed his blood.

You read things into my post that just aren't there, just like you do with the scriptures.

I said nothing about sins. I simply said God chose us in Him from before the foundation of the world. If you don't like that, take it up with God. He's the one that came up with the idea. I'm not nearly that smart.

 

[Nova2216]

You read things into my post that just aren't there, just like you do with the scriptures.

I said nothing about sins. I simply said God chose us in Him from before the foundation of the world. If you don't like that, take it up with God. He's the one that came up with the idea. I'm not nearly that smart.

WHEN were your sins were forgiven by the blood of Christ?

1. 1000s of years before you were ever born or sinned
2. Belief
3. Confession
4. Repentance
5. Baptism


Will you answer the question?

The answer must be one of 1-5.




Thanks

 

[rrobs]

WHEN were your sins were forgiven by the blood of Christ?

1. 1000s of years before you were ever born or sinned
2. Belief
3. Confession
4. Repentance
5. Baptism

Will you answer the question?

The answer must be one of 1-5.

Thanks

Rom 10:9,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
​

Hopefully that will answer your question.

 

[Nova2216]

Rom 10:9,

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
​

Hopefully that will answer your question.

This verse says belief and confession.


What about repentance?

3. I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)

 

[Nova2216]

You read things into my post that just aren't there, just like you do with the scriptures.

I said nothing about sins. I simply said God chose us in Him from before the foundation of the world. If you don't like that, take it up with God. He's the one that came up with the idea. I'm not nearly that smart.

Rob - You read things into my post that just aren't there, just like you do with the scriptures.

Nova -That is not true.

If you would just answer the simple question...


So your sins were forgiven at the point of belief and confession.

Is this what you are telling me?

 

[Nova2216]

Rob, here is an easier question.

When was Paul's sins washed away by the blood of Jesus?

(Acts 22:16)

1. Arise
2. Be Baptized
3. Wash Away Your SIns

Before or After Baptism?

 

[rrobs]

This verse says belief and confession.


What about repentance?

3. I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (Luke 13:3)

Luke is before Jesus finished his work, before salvation was even available. Romans is after Jesus finished and it is quite clear as to what one must do to be saved.

Throughout the ages many churches have added to Romans 10:9 (and many other verses), but the original words are still there for anyone who wants to know what they say.

 

[Nova2216]

Luke is before Jesus finished his work, before salvation was even available. Romans is after Jesus finished and it is quite clear as to what one must do to be saved.

Throughout the ages many churches have added to Romans 10:9 (and many other verses), but the original words are still there for anyone who wants to know what they say.

* (Romans 6:3-6) comes long before (Rom.10;9,10)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.



How do men get "INTO CHRIST"?


1. By Believing
2. By Confessing
3. By Baptism

 

[Nova2216]

Notice in (Rom.6:3-6) that newness of life comes at baptism and not before baptism.

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:

Does one believe into Christ?
Does one confess into Christ?

How do men get INTO CHRIST?

Salvation is IN CHRIST. (2Tim.2:10)

(Rom.6:3-6) tells us how men get INTO CHRIST.

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?


Thanks

 

[Nova2216]

[QU OTE="rrobs, post: 6699671, member: 64030"]Luke is before Jesus finished his work, before salvation was even available. Romans is after Jesus finished and it is quite clear as to what one must do to be saved.

Throughout the ages many churches have added to Romans 10:9 (and many other verses), but the original words are still there for anyone who wants to know what they say.[/QUOTE]

(Luke 16:16) - 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

 

[e.r.m.]

Rrobs,

Throughout the ages many churches have added to Romans 10:9 (and many other verses), but the original words are still there for anyone who wants to know what they say.

I believe it is the "by grace alone' through faith alone" group who has added to Romans 10:9, by adding the exclusive element, for which there are no words in the verse. How could Paul be prescribing a "That's it, and that's all" meaning to Romans 10:9 when it did not even apply to himself? Saul believed in his heart and confessed with his mouth the Lord Jesus Acts 22:8, 10 but his sins were still not washed away three days later. Acts 22:16. Now what the verse does say
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Believing Jesus and surrendering to Him as Lord led him to being saved (...you "will" be saved; ) The verse itself played out as such, but Paul never said Romans 10:9 was all.