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Jesus Has Left The Building

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Ha I like the title!

Whether or not there was a man called Jesus is incidental to me. I happen to believe that there was - but it's not important. The Jesus of myth is sufficient.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend dogsgod,

Jesus Has Left The Building

Guess this should have been in the discussion or announcement or music section but debate?
Well after the post by friend Misty am convinced human minds will always find some issue for a debate any time! [in that sense you did fine]

Love & rgds
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Ha I like the title!

Whether or not there was a man called Jesus is incidental to me. I happen to believe that there was - but it's not important. The Jesus of myth is sufficient.

If it's not important, why not simply take what's actually useful and discard the rest?
 

Evandr

Stripling Warrior
Why would a myth be sufficient?

Your whole ethos seems to be built upon assumption. Those with a faith to believe have the deity to which they can claim gave revelation. Now that may or may not be but it is more than you have because something or someone that is not there (as you claim) cannot give revelation which leaves your whole argument without foundation other than it being your opinion yet you talk like your opinion is based on facts.:areyoucra Please explain.
 

Misty

Well-Known Member
Your whole ethos seems to be built upon assumption. Those with a faith to believe have the deity to which they can claim gave revelation. Now that may or may not be but it is more than you have because something or someone that is not there (as you claim) cannot give revelation which leaves your whole argument without foundation other than it being your opinion yet you talk like your opinion is based on facts.:areyoucra Please explain.

Everything is built on assumption where faith, or lack of it, is concerned due to no data being available to prove or disprove the existence of a deity.
 

Evandr

Stripling Warrior
Everything is built on assumption where faith, or lack of it, is concerned due to no data being available to prove or disprove the existence of a deity.

You cannot possibly know the knowledge other people posses or where they get it. Weather or not you accept what others say is based on what you know or what you assume but trying to form opinions based on things you know nothing about, or have never experienced, is very telling about how much weight your arguments should carry.

Your arguments are based on empty assumptions and therefore your arguments are empty. There not being physical evidence of revelation is by design so that each person's experience with regard to their mortal probation is based on what they seek and find and not what someone else seeks and finds.

Now, having said that, I have personally seen the consequences of the power of the priesthood being properly used, even on unconscious individuals so I have even further evidence that what I believe to be true IS true and you are left with nothing more than your assumptions based on what your five senses, coupled with your life's experiences, have told you. The problem is that revelation does not need one of the five senses and the current explanations for our physical universe are in a constant state of flux wherein nothing is for sure by virtue of the reality that there is untold amounts of information that we are not currently privy to, information that has the potential to disprove most, if not all, of what we understand about our physical universe. This is the plight of the Atheist.
 

Evandr

Stripling Warrior
If it's not important, why not simply take what's actually useful and discard the rest?

There has to be a standard by which one measures the impotents of something. So I believe what you need to say is "If it's not important to YOU, then take what you think is useful and discard the rest", fact is, that is what most people actually do.
Everyone must decide for them selves what is important and the lists will be nearly as varied as the people who make them. The key is to make sure that that which is truly important is on your list and to do that requires guidance from someone who has ALL the facts. I doubt if any mortal has all the facts necessary to be a sufficient guide on their own.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
Then why pledge fealty to a particular religion/denomination?
I suppose it is a statement about my identity. I identify with Christianity as I mould it for myself. I see something 'out there' in the writings of Spong, Newell, Tolstoy and others. I internalise them and they become a part of me.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
There has to be a standard by which one measures the impotents of something. So I believe what you need to say is "If it's not important to YOU, then take what you think is useful and discard the rest", fact is, that is what most people actually do.
Everyone must decide for them selves what is important and the lists will be nearly as varied as the people who make them. The key is to make sure that that which is truly important is on your list and to do that requires guidance from someone who has ALL the facts. I doubt if any mortal has all the facts necessary to be a sufficient guide on their own.

What I meant was, if Jesus being real wasn't important, why not just take whatever was attributed to him that you like and leave the rest of the rigid dogma behind. It's like sitting through a really crappy movie just because you like the song that plays during the end credits.
 

Misty

Well-Known Member
You cannot possibly know the knowledge other people posses or where they get it. Weather or not you accept what others say is based on what you know or what you assume but trying to form opinions based on things you know nothing about, or have never experienced, is very telling about how much weight your arguments should carry.

Your arguments are based on empty assumptions and therefore your arguments are empty. There not being physical evidence of revelation is by design so that each person's experience with regard to their mortal probation is based on what they seek and find and not what someone else seeks and finds.

Now, having said that, I have personally seen the consequences of the power of the priesthood being properly used, even on unconscious individuals so I have even further evidence that what I believe to be true IS true and you are left with nothing more than your assumptions based on what your five senses, coupled with your life's experiences, have told you. The problem is that revelation does not need one of the five senses and the current explanations for our physical universe are in a constant state of flux wherein nothing is for sure by virtue of the reality that there is untold amounts of information that we are not currently privy to, information that has the potential to disprove most, if not all, of what we understand about our physical universe. This is the plight of the Atheist.

Your faith is based on what you believe to be the case, and I don't doubt you hold your belief quite sincerely. It might prove to you there is something beyond this physical sphere, but it doesn't prove it to others.

In my 60 years of life I have had the most remarkable experiences which many would consider 'supernatural', however I am always looking for the natural explanation. I am of the opinion that the human brain, a remarkable organ, is as good as it gets and one day we will be able to explain everything, even stuff that evades us now.
 

sandandfoam

Veteran Member
I am of the opinion that the human brain, a remarkable organ, is as good as it gets and one day we will be able to explain everything, even stuff that evades us now.

I think that without looking for anything supernatural people are more than brains.
Regarding the belief that we will some day be able to explain everything I am sceptical. Knowledge is always situated and the situation is always changing.
 

Hawkins

Well-Known Member
Your faith is based on what you believe to be the case, and I don't doubt you hold your belief quite sincerely. It might prove to you there is something beyond this physical sphere, but it doesn't prove it to others.

In my 60 years of life I have had the most remarkable experiences which many would consider 'supernatural', however I am always looking for the natural explanation. I am of the opinion that the human brain, a remarkable organ, is as good as it gets and one day we will be able to explain everything, even stuff that evades us now.

That actually requires faith to believe. So your message here is actually "I have a faith which differs from the Christians".
 

Evandr

Stripling Warrior
What I meant was, if Jesus being real wasn't important, why not just take whatever was attributed to him that you like and leave the rest of the rigid dogma behind. It's like sitting through a really crappy movie just because you like the song that plays during the end credits.
It's a valid question, taking anything that Christ teaches is going to be better than taking nothing at all. Christ never engaged in anything not meant to glorify the father and provide for the redemption of mankind. To a logical mind, one capable of standing back and considering the whole picture, taking what one should consider important is to take it all; taking anything less is like trying to put together a car and only taking half the parts, they may fit together as they should but you will never get anywhere with it so, like your question implies, many will fail to grasp the whole picture and will only take what they deem important and most will only adhere to what is convenient.
 

Evandr

Stripling Warrior
Your faith is based on what you believe to be the case, and I don't doubt you hold your belief quite sincerely. It might prove to you there is something beyond this physical sphere, but it doesn't prove it to others.
You are quite right - everyone, including you will be responsable for their own eternal condition. You will never, worlds without end, be able to blame someone else for your failings or claim someone elses successes as your own, nobody will.
In my 60 years of life I have had the most remarkable experiences which many would consider 'supernatural', however I am always looking for the natural explanation. I am of the opinion that the human brain, a remarkable organ, is as good as it gets and one day we will be able to explain everything, even stuff that evades us now.
Are you going to be there on that day? If so then there IS more to life and intelligence than the gray matter we call our brain; if not then trying to convince others of their error in religious matters is a pointless endeavor. Agree with everybody that wants to do good and wish everyone a happy life for, if you are right, there is no purpose in it beyond that, there is no intelligent design and thusly the utterly impossible has come to pass.
 
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