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Jesus Failed Right?

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.
true
While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.
true
Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.
Partially true… he started with the Jews but also ministered to the gentiles and came for the gentiles because it was about humanity
It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

Partially true. It was Peter who started the Gentile movement. (Actually, one could come to the conclusion that it was God that started it)
All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.
Well… he actually did… but they left. Even today people reject what he did
Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus?

That would be great, wouldn’t it?
He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience.

I think he did pretty good.
Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

I think you have to define what you think his objective was to find out if he failed. As i understand it, he succeeded. Did you think his mission was to have millions follow him when he was on this earth? What do you think his mission was?
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

As i understand it, he succeeded.

You might as well ask if he performed so many miracles, why not perform a miracle and have humanity "turn on a dime". If you want to argue that it's not a matter of failure or success but following a Divine plan that's one thing which I would agree with. Seedlings don't become fully grown plants in an hour. Similarly humanity's spiritual growth takes time. God in human form provides "fertilizer" to help growth leading finally to maturity.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?
You confuse the man's life with the story of the man's life.

The story was and still is incredibly successful. It has changed the minds, hearts, and lives of millions and millions and millions of people, ... and much for the better. Humanity in general is far more kind and forgiving toward each other as a result of the story of this one man's life, death, and resurrection. It's really quite amazing that one story could have that kind of impact on so many people over such a long time. But I think that's what happens when people can recognize the deeper truth that the story is trying to convey to them.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
You might as well ask if he performed so many miracles, why not perform a miracle and have humanity "turn on a dime". If you want to argue that it's not a matter of failure or success but following a Divine plan that's one thing which I would agree with. Seedlings don't become fully grown plants in an hour. Similarly humanity's spiritual growth takes time. God in human form provides "fertilizer" to help growth leading finally to maturity.

IMV - It is a matter of choice / free will. Love can never be forced on another person. It has to be freely given and freely received.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
It was Peter who started the Gentile movement. (Actually, one could come to the conclusion that it was God that started it)

I'm far from sure that this is correct. There's a hypothesis that Gentiles were not sought after at first but the Way was having too much trouble converting Jews. I tend to think it's likely Paul who came up with this and with the appropriate theology. Maybe Jesus said something along that line but maybe some put words into his mouth. However, too hard to tell for sure, imo. :shrug:

Signed: Mr. Skeptic
 

Gargovic Malkav

Well-Known Member
Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

In my opinion, the moral of the story is about how someone who is depicted as the personification of uprightness is rejected by "the world".
In other words: popularity ≠ wisdom and/or goodness.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?
No, Jesus did no fail. He accomplished exactly what He came to earth to do, which was going to the cross to pay for the sins of the world and offer eternal life. He established the church and the Apostles and other disciples (of which there were many more than twelve) spread the Gospel message throughout the nations. Millions and millions have trusted Jesus Christ, received His forgiveness, eternal life, and had their lives transformed forever.

No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” John 10:8


For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” Mark 10:45
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?
Jesus's point was to not fail God and open the doors to heaven for others. In the Old Testament the doors of heaven are closed until the messiah comes to open them for Christians Jesus was that messiah. His goal was not to take over the world but open the world of heaven.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Is the moral of the story that we're supposed to take away from this a "if you aren't extremely wealthy/famous in your time you're a failure?" Because it's sounding like that's what the OP is saying. By this measure the "influencers" on social media with millions of "followers" are more "successful" than career professionals who actually do something useful for humanity with their lives.

Gross.

Not how I would assess "success" and "failure" for any human, if I were to assess such arbitrary things at all.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I'm far from sure that this is correct. There's a hypothesis that Gentiles were not sought after at first but the Way was having too much trouble converting Jews. I tend to think it's likely Paul who came up with this and with the appropriate theology. Maybe Jesus said something along that line but maybe some put words into his mouth. However, too hard to tell for sure, imo. :shrug:

Signed: Mr. Skeptic

I’m sure we will figure it out when we leave this earth.

I view it as what Peter determined, Acts 10:"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:”. It was an omnipotent act of God to have Cornelius come to Jesus.

As one considers Melchizedek, to whom Abraham gave tithes to which Jesus would be of the same order, he was the king of gentiles. I think I can hold ot the thought that God was interested in all of the decedents of Adam and not just the decedents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob since through him all the nations were to be blessed.

I think I could construct that position without putting words in the mouth of Jesus.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?

I think that it is essential to consider the biblical accounts of Jesus in the context of comparative mythology and recognize that the savior story about him in the Bible is not the first of its kind. There are other stories of Christlike figures that predate both the Bible and Christianity. In light of my own research on the subject, I've concluded that if Jesus (the English adaptation of Yehoshua/Yeshua) lived 2,000 years ago, then he was just an ordinary man and a popular religious teacher whose followers spread embellished stories about him, including modified stories about demigods from Greek mythology and other pagan religions that would make him appear godlike. For example, if you replace the name Jesus with Attis (the Phrygian-Greek god of vegetation), you'll see a strikingly familiar savior story similar to that of Jesus, except the Greek myths about Attis are dated 1250 BCE, which predates Christianity and the Bible (source). You could also replace the name Jesus with any of the other Christlike figures discussed in the articles I linked. There are even more similar myths that parallel the stories of his divine birth, performing supernatural miracles, walking on water, miraculously healing the sick, raising the dead, as well as his alleged crucifixion, death, and resurrection. You will see that the stories about him are not unique, including his savior story, which, in my opinion, is no more credible than all of the other savior stories that preceded it. As shown in the articles, it is just one among many of the same kind.

10 Christ-Like Figures that predate Jesus

The Truth About Mythological Figures Similar To Jesus

Other Gods That Rose From the Dead in Spring Before Jesus Christ

In conclusion, I believe that most of the biblical stories about Jesus are plagiarized pagan myths, demonstrating that these stories are not unique and that paganism had a substantial impact on Christianity. In my opinion, the stories about him were greatly embellished, either copied and adapted from Greek mythology and other ancient pagan religions that his followers were aware of at the time or stories based on hearsay that became more elaborate as they spread. Do you know how you can tell a story to a group of people, and over time the original story changes substantially because some people forget what was said, so they guess by making something up to fill in the blanks, or they add their own narratives to embellish the story? I believe this could be the reason why the stories of Jesus vastly spread from region to region and that these stories about him were greatly embellished to make him appear to be godlike and even the son of the Abrahamic God. Again, what I've stated in my post is my personal opinion. I realize that others will disagree with me.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Jesus spent 3 years trying to convert people right. Only ended up with twelve disciples. One of whom denied him, Matt. 26:69-75. One who betrayed him, Matt. 26:15.

While on the cross he was derided and mocked. Matthew 27:39–44.

Jesus said he came for the Jews, Matthew 15:24. Who he was rejected by.

It was Paul who went to the gentiles and started the Christian movement.

All of the miracles he did, healing people, bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands with 5 loafs of bread and 2 fish. You'd think he'd have gotten more of a following among the people he claimed he came for.

Christians have promoted the idea that we should be more like Jesus? He was not a very good teacher/preacher to his chosen audience. Was it part of God's plan for Jesus to fail?
Today he has about two billion followers if not more

Doesn't look like much of a failure to me
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
Today he has about two billion followers if not more

Doesn't look like much of a failure to me

Argumentum ad populum, in my opinion, is a weak argument for defending the popularity of Christianity or the veracity of its tenets because the same argument could also be used to defend Islam, which is the second largest religion in the world (source) and the fastest-growing religion as well (source).
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I’m sure we will figure it out when we leave this earth.

I view it as what Peter determined, Acts 10:"34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:”. It was an omnipotent act of God to have Cornelius come to Jesus.

As one considers Melchizedek, to whom Abraham gave tithes to which Jesus would be of the same order, he was the king of gentiles. I think I can hold ot the thought that God was interested in all of the decedents of Adam and not just the decedents of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob since through him all the nations were to be blessed.

I think I could construct that position without putting words in the mouth of Jesus.

Where I think your scenario is entirely possible, is that anyone can learn and live from Jesus' Two Commandments regardless of ancestry. But Jesus did say that he only came for the Jews, thus I tend to lean in the direction that the opening for the Gentiles likely came later.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Partially true. It was Peter who started the Gentile movement. (Actually, one could come to the conclusion that it was God that started it)

Matthew 10:5,6 Upon commissioning His disciples, He commands them to minister to Israel exclusively: “Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritan's, but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

So Peter didn't listen to what Jesus taught them it seems. :oops:

Well… he actually did… but they left. Even today people reject what he did.

Paul was better at it than Jesus. :shrug:

I think you have to define what you think his objective was to find out if he failed. As i understand it, he succeeded. Did you think his mission was to have millions follow him when he was on this earth? What do you think his mission was?

Why don't you tell me what you think his mission was. According to Jesus, he came for the lost sheep of Israel.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Despite the challenges and setbacks Jesus faced during his mission, his message of love, compassion, and forgiveness continues to inspire millions around the world. His teachings have transcended time and cultural barriers, leaving a profound impact on humanity. Rather than focusing on perceived 'failure,' let's reflect on the enduring legacy of hope and redemption that Jesus left behind, and strive to embody his principles of kindness and understanding in our own lives. Thank you for sharing this thought-provoking perspective.

Just saying Jesus didn't seem to get the message out well himself. Fortunately for God, Paul came along to spread the message among the gentiles which Jesus commanded them not to do. The people of Israel didn't listen to him didn't accept him. The people he said he came for rejected him.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
Argumentum ad populum, in my opinion, is a weak argument for defending the popularity of Christianity or the veracity of its tenets because the same argument could also be used to defend Islam, which is the second largest religion in the world (source) and the fastest-growing religion as well (source).
But still, the fact that he has billions of followers disqualifies him from having failed

I think it is reasonable to judge a prophetic ministry on the number of followers/converts
 
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