• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Jesus as mediator

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ok. So you are saying it is known before it is given? It must be. But that is conceptual within the logos of God. We are the ones who make the mistakes. Why did people die even when there was no law then?
People had no mediator before the mediator came with a promise. Before Jesus there was no promise. That is the problem I see with your bubble theory. There exist many little bubbles in some big bubbles but what connects all the little bubbles in different big bubbles?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So how does God work out that you shouldn't do certain things in order that we have laws given first, such as the garden?
And yet when out of the garden, there is no law present at first.
You are asking me how God works out something. Haha! How the hell am I suppose to know?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not know if the membrane of a bubble will always pop if something pierces it. Is it possible there is a kind of thing that won't break if it's membrane gets a hole in it?

Why do I ask? Because one reality knows no sin but another IS sin. We know about both of them. How?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am not making fun of the multiple universe theory. Asking questions is for what is real to come into focus. Steel sharpens steel says someone important.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
No! The person not for The Lord sees the law to obey IT. They do not pass it by! God would wish they WOULD, I think.
I don't know your particular situation. Mercy and truth have to be paired. The written law we are talking about, if you are keeping it, then it requires judgment and mercy and teaches things beyond the letters. Reading it, it is a killer, but in keeping it you can learn spiritual principles that are life-giving. You mention Paul. Paul says there is a lot of value in circumcision. (Romans 3:2) At the same time he doesn't require it or say that gentiles need it; but in Acts he agrees new converts should have some general guidelines, like a subset of written Torah. It is a bit confusing.

A question. Is it possible to obey the law and THE LORD? How please? Isn't all trouble caused by humanity obsessed with law and what it will do? It won't do anything because it is not alive.
Yes, and there are a few ways to approach the subject. Moses laws are not a complete set of instructions. They leave a lot of gaps, but you can learn mercy and truth. Look at the story of Naboth and Abigail. Naboth didn't get the spirit of the law, but Abigail did. One of the two people followed both the Law and the LORD, and that was Abigail. Naboth kept the rules, but he didn't hear the still small voice. He learned nothing! She learned everything.

People will say Romans 7:7 means without the law people would not know what is bad to do. But doesn't it mean people would not know it is possible to do?
The fruit of the tree of knowledge of good & evil exists in the garden, but why? Everybody always wants to know about that and also to know why the serpent is there 'In the first place?' Here is Paul talking about how he sees the issue. Why expose humanity to the choice between good and evil? Long-story-shortened, Paul says "Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it." So I think he's teaching about the distinction between the person and their body. Already in Torah every human is equal, so in Torah your race does not determine your righteous potential! Paul builds on this and divides the human creature into two parts: a part that tries to do good and a part that tries to do bad. One he calls 'Law of the spirit' and the other 'Law of sin'. So to him the conflict within us is a proof that we are not completely evil. He goes on to say because of this principle there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus and "...God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" (Romans 8:3). This is perhaps one 'Theological' basis for including the whole world in the House of Faith, rather than only those who being enabled through lives spent following the Torah have a shot at perfection. He overturns perfectionism in this argument, so this is Paul's answer to the classic question of how Truth and Mercy can be paired. So he on the one hand says that Moses Law is useful and important, but he doesn't see it as the only path. His problem with the Law is that it is unable to differentiate between the inner and the outer person, so it condemns people that shouldn't be. That is not to say that he believes in unprincipled living. He doesn't.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
People had no mediator before the mediator came with a promise. Before Jesus there was no promise. That is the problem I see with your bubble theory. There exist many little bubbles in some big bubbles but what connects all the little bubbles in different big bubbles?
Many reflections of the One, many reflections of the Saviour. Slices of the same reality. It is all thought processes that we see in a physical way.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
I do not know if the membrane of a bubble will always pop if something pierces it. Is it possible there is a kind of thing that won't break if it's membrane gets a hole in it?

Why do I ask? Because one reality knows no sin but another IS sin. We know about both of them. How?
How do we know sin and not know, how do we know good and evil? Because it is what we are, good and evil. Two sides of the same coin.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We have heard from Bible Student that "Jesus is for everyone". But the question has not been answered yet is Jesus mediator for everyone?

I also know that JWs believe a person can be reconciled to God only by obeying whatever the faithful and discreet slave says. If that is the truth then it is the faithful and discreet slave who is mediator because mediation, when done properly, causes a reconciliation between two parties.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
It is not possible for YHVH to approve sin.

ING - How would anyone know that?

All people sin.

ING - That is an opinion, - that I don't agree with. I have listened to those "trained" proselytizers - asking people if they did ever steal, lie, hurt someone, etc. Most people can't say NO because they did these things as children, - and that is what makes such - in error.

Sin is knowing something is wrong - and choosing to do it anyway. Thus young children in the stealing, hitting, biting, stage, are not committing sins. They are in the normal learning stage for our species. That is HOW they learn about what their particular society thinks is wrong, sin, etc.

The same would be somewhat true for adults as well. You most know it is wrong, and then chose to do it anyway. If it is something society as a whole considers wrong, and you do it, not understanding/thinking it is, this is generally a person with a mental problem - thus not a sin.

Or someone like myself, in a Threesome. Christianity might find this a sin, however, I am not a Christian, and I believe it is great, thus it is not actually a sin even in the Christian ideology. One must believe it is a sin - and then do it anyway - for it to be a sin.

Another example might be Headhunter Societies. We might feel eating our enemies is a sin - or against the laws of man, etc., but to them it is a normal part of their society, and thus does not fall under that Sin definition.


It is not possible for any person to be found innocent before God.

ING - Not true! See above! And I might add that you condemned everyone with those words. What about babies? The mentally ill?

Which means no person is able to ever KNOW God. But now because Jesus mediates WE CAN.

Again - That is just one belief, from one religion. And this Jesus mediates idea, takes away from personal responsibility for what we CHOOSE to do.

If there were a Heaven, - I don't believe for one second - that the Hitlers, murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc., would be there - just because they later accepted Jesus. That would be a travesty of justice!

*
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Again - That is just one belief, from one religion. And this Jesus mediates idea, takes away from personal responsibility for what we CHOOSE to do.

If there were a Heaven, - I don't believe for one second - that the Hitlers, murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc., would be there - just because they later accepted Jesus. That would be a travesty of justice!

*
I do not know what you are talking about. Mediation is not an invitation.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
I do not know what you are talking about. Mediation is not an invitation.

*

Don't most Christian denominations believe - no matter the sin you originally committed, - accepting Jesus as Savior, - and repenting the sin, - will get you into Heaven?


*
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Mediation for what exactly?
Cute! Exactly? How does a person do that do you think?

God is A Spirit. The Spirit is Holy Holy Holy. Do you know any people like that? I don't. I suppose even Jesus needed mediation to enter the place of The Most High. His mediation was law. My mediaiton is him.
 

Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
*

Don't most Christian denominations believe - no matter the sin you originally committed, - accepting Jesus as Savior, - and repenting the sin, - will get you into Heaven?


*
You would have to believe though, and that is God given, not just the words of man. Did Hitler repent of his past sin? I doubt it.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You would have to believe though, and that is God given, not just the words of man. Did Hitler repent of his past sin? I doubt it.
I doubt it too. Scripture says "all good gifts and perfect presents come from The Father" (James 1:17). The will to repent is a perfect present. I think Heaven would not give a perfect present to people like Hitler.
 
Top