Jesus as mediator

[savagewind]

I have heard "humankind needed a mediator" between it and God. Humankind is one thing. I believe God is one. It seems to me that people are happy believing Jesus is mediator between humankind as one thing and God. I do not believe it. I believe Jesus is mediator between God The Spirit and each person. What say You?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Ok. I found the thread.

 

[Brickjectivity]

You posed the problem of the 'Mediator' and understanding it from scripture verses in the Christian canon of the NT but also the practical issue of whether we need a mediator 'Between us and God'.

One idea I've heard is that the 'Mediator' does not go between so much as they intercede with us on God's behalf. For example the duty of Levi is to train people. So that is one idea, and with this idea Jesus intercedes with us on the Father's behalf.

Then there is the idea that Jesus intercedes with God for us. So he's like a defense attorney.

Then there are people who think it is neither or both.

 

[savagewind]

It is not possible for YHVH to approve sin. All people sin. It is not possible for any person to be found innocent before God. Which means no person is able to ever KNOW God. But now because Jesus mediates WE CAN.

 

[Brickjectivity]

My idea is that since the Church is the body of Christ and is to eventually show the glory of God, that it is part of the Church's very long program to eventually embody all truth. That then is the mediation. So that is a non literal view of it. People individually are made in the image of God, and it has to do with collecting all the little bits of that image to make a whole image.

 

[savagewind]

The problem has been festering in my head since I read "humankind needed a mediator" but the same doctrine states Jesus mediates for only 144,000 of humankind. Logic shall say then that I am without a mediator unless I am one of 144,000 which means I can never know God.

 

[savagewind]

My idea is that since the Church is the body of Christ and is to eventually show the glory of God, that it is part of the Church's very long program to eventually embody all truth. That then is the mediation. So that is a non literal view of it. People individually are made in the image of God, and it has to do with collecting all the little bits of that image to make a whole image.

No. Humankind cannot mediate between it and someone else. A mediator is someone BETWEEN two subjects.

 

[Brickjectivity]

It is not possible for YHVH to approve sin. All people sin. It is not possible for any person to be found innocent before God. Which means no person is able to ever KNOW God. But now because Jesus mediates WE CAN.

So you are saying that it is about knowing God. One thing I notice about Christians though is that we have a messiah who has not yet fulfilled the messianic requirements, so I look at it as a long term future fulfillment. "Calling things that are not as though they were" so to speak.

 

[savagewind]

Jesus' mediation means permission to approach The Most High.

 

[Brickjectivity]

No. Humankind cannot mediate between it and someone else. A mediator is someone BETWEEN two subjects.

I follow your argument. I cannot go against that, but take Moses as an example of a mediator. He's Moses, but not only does he mediate but he is actually an obstacle. How could it ever be ideal for someone to be between you and God? And what about the various NT passages where the 'Veil' of the temple is torn? Doesn't that symbolize the end of mediation?

 

[savagewind]

So you are saying that it is about knowing God. One thing I notice about Christians though is that we have a messiah who has not yet fulfilled the messianic requirements, so I look at it as a long term future fulfillment. "Calling things that are not as though they were" so to speak.

No requirements has Jesus.

The Temple Tax
24 After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma temple tax data- came to Peter and asked, “Doesn’t your teacher pay the temple tax?”

25 “Yes, he does,” he replied.

When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. “What do you think, Simon?” he asked. “From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes—from their own children or from others?”

26 “From others,” Peter answered.

“Then the children are exempt,” Jesus said to him. 27 “But so that we may not cause offense, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours.”

 

[savagewind]

I follow your argument. I cannot go against that, but take Moses as an example of a mediator. He's Moses, but not only does he mediate but he is actually an obstacle. How could it ever be ideal for someone to be between you and God? And what about the various NT passages where the 'Veil' of the temple is torn? Doesn't that symbolize the end of mediation?

Galatians 3:19 might be an error in translation. Moses was not mediator. The Law was.

 

[Brickjectivity]

No requirements has Jesus.

I'm not following this argument. So he didn't consider the 'Two drachma' tax compelling for 'The children'. Ok, we have gospels loaded with terms like 'Messiah'. We have certain restrictions and tests that are for prophets. We have a Law that is endless. I see that he didn't consider the two drachma tax binding. Perhaps if your hunch is right, then Jesus did not consider things the prophets said to be binding predictions. For example perhaps Malachi's predictions weren't to him really predictions as people like to think of them. I see your example but what is your thought about it?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Galatians 3:19 might be an error in translation. Moses was not mediator. The Law was.

I just don't deal with Galatians for now. Its got pointy corners and all the other puzzle pieces have roundy corners.

 

[savagewind]

So he didn't consider the 'Two drachma' tax compelling for 'The children'.

Of course not. Why should God be restricting the family of God more so than people resrict their own families?

We have certain restrictions and tests that are for prophets. We have a Law that is endless. I see that he didn't consider the two drachma tax binding.

[I don't know how to do this ]

What does it mean about prophets? And The law is NOT endless!

 

[savagewind]

Law is for sinners!

Jesus brings us (willing ones) back to [let's say for the hell of it] Jehovah. We are not sinners in the presence of The Lord. What would the law be for then?

 

[savagewind]

We have certain restrictions and tests that are for prophets.

What does this mean?

 

[Brickjectivity]

What does it mean about prophets? And The law is NOT endless!

I have read many references to it being eternal, perfect etc. Psalm 119 is an example.

certain restrictions and tests that are for prophets

I just mean if prophets taught people not to follow L-RD, then they were stoned.

 

[savagewind]

The law as mediator came to an end with Jesus. The law WAS perfect. If it wasn't there would be no Jesus.

Jesus proved the law is perfect. But isn't law for sinners?

 

[Brickjectivity]

Law is for sinners!

Jesus brings us (willing ones) back to [let's say for the hell of it] Jehovah. We are not sinners in the presence of The Lord. What would the law be for then?

You ask if we lived perfectly, then what use would the Law be to us? In that case it would be written in our minds. The paper would not be needed, but the Law is like a living thing. "The Word..is living and active and sharper..."(Hebrews 4:12) 'Torah' is not strictly rules but more like how things work and is not just letters on paper. Math and Physics are also a kind of Torah, though they are not the Torah for Israel. They are an example of the concept of Torah. Lets say that you could do all kinds of Math in your head and no longer needed textbooks. Even so, that does not mean Math would come to an end. It would just mean that you didn't need a Math book and the principles would still apply.

So lets say that you are living perfectly and don't sin. Well then you are a living embodiment of how to live, so your life is Torah. So the Torah is still not gone, and you just don't need a paper copy.