Jesus as mediator

[sojourner]

OK. I believe that! But we are talking about WHO gets welcome before God's throne in a good way. The Bible says EVERYONE will end up there. OK? I don't want to be there as a criminal. I want to be there for entreaty like my Lord is present there. I will not make a plea for everyone then. Will you? Yes? Why? Why plea for bad people the same as you would for honorable people? Would it not be using your precious time neglectfully?

God's way is always a good way. What do you think the story of the Prodigal is about? And the lost sheep? And the lost coin? I plead for the outcast and the less fortunate because that's the loving thing to do.

 

[sojourner]

It is a lax and undisciplined approach to the study of the Bible to make it believe whatever you wish it to be.

That's not what I said, though. What I said is that the texts are multivalent, and we make meaning out of what makes sense to us.

Nonetheless God is the lawgiver.

God is also the Reconciler and the Ameliorator.

This would be a difficult thing to argue a round from a sound Biblical position.

Nope. It's been done to death. You're just not paying attention.

Law calls for a Judge.

Not always. Not if, as the bible clearly states, the law is love.

God as a judge would also be difficult to argue against from a sound Biblical position.

Not really. It's been done to death, too.

 

[savagewind]

God's way is always a good way. What do you think the story of the Prodigal is about? And the lost sheep? And the lost coin? I plead for the outcast and the less fortunate because that's the loving thing to do.

Tell me what bad thing the prodigal son did against another human being?

 

[sojourner]

Tell me what bad thing the prodigal son did against another human being?

He rebelled against his family.

 

[savagewind]

He rebelled against his family.

He rebelled against family tradition. So? What bad thing did he do against another living soul? You know, other than embarrassing his daddy and putting his brother into crisis?

 

[savagewind]

What sin did he commit? Leaving? Is leaving a sin? Best to let the trout know that.

 

[sojourner]

He rebelled against family tradition. So? What bad thing did he do against another living soul? You know, other than embarrassing his daddy and putting his brother into crisis?

It's a parable. That culture was different from ours. In that culture, you were under your father's thumb. You didn't just "leave home on your own." In that culture, younger sons stayed in the family home. Eldest brothers inherited the family wealth/responsibilities upon Daddy's death. Not only did the son leave home, but he squandered the family treasure. It's all very symbolic. Yet, when he returned, not only was his father waiting for him, his father didn't judge him -- didn't even question him; simply welcomed him home.

Yes, in the parable, leaving home is a sin, just as straying away from God is the definition of sin.

 

[savagewind]

You are not thinking. If it was a sin for the son to leave then the father shared responsibilty for it. Didn't he? He allowed it and even gave him the money to do it.

 

[savagewind]

I hear you say that it is obvious the worst sin ever committed is forgivable by looking at Jesus' parable of the prodigal son.

If everyone will be forgiven everything then what does this mean?
Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

 

[sojourner]

You are not thinking. If it was a sin for the son to leave then the father shared responsibilty for it. Didn't he? He allowed it and even gave him the money to do it.

Only goes to show that God doesn't want to control us. Again: this isn't about control or power. It's about relationship.

 

[sojourner]

I hear you say that it is obvious the worst sin ever committed is forgivable by looking at Jesus' parable of the prodigal son.

Nope. What you hear me say is that the parable of the Prodigal (which means "wandering," or "recklessly wasteful") shows us that God stands ready to receive all wandering souls who return to God.

If everyone will be forgiven everything then what does this mean?
Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

What does "speaks against the Holy Spirit" mean?

 

[savagewind]

Nope. What you hear me say is that the parable of the Prodigal (which means "wandering," or "recklessly wasteful") shows us that God stands ready to receive all wandering souls who return to God.

What does "speaks against the Holy Spirit" mean?

I don't know. You tell me (please).
My point was that the Bible makes it clear some won't be reconciled.

 

[savagewind]

If everyone becomes reconciled there is no better or worse. But then why does scripture talk about being better? Why does it say take the least spot reserved for worthy ones? It seems to me there are no worthy ones if you are to be believed.

 

[sojourner]

I don't know. You tell me (please).
My point was that the Bible makes it clear some won't be reconciled.

Well, until you come up with a meaning for the phrase, I don't see how the bible "makes it clear." From my reading, the bible is clear that the world is reconciled, and that God's mercy is sufficient for the sin of the world.

To what is Jesus referring in this sermon? He's talking about dividing God's house against itself (it's in reference to the Pharisees' accusation that Jesus cast out demons by Beelzebub. the Pharisees have spoken against Jesus, hence, are guilty of "dividing God's house." Matthew is establishing through his gospel that the church is the "true Israel." He's using this as part of his evidence that the Pharisees -- the Judaic religious authorities -- are not the "true Israel" (because they have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit -- that is, they have divided God's house by speaking ill of Jesus).

In this case, it's not so "clear" that some won't be reconciled. It's a rather hyperbolic statement in his case against Judaism as the "true Israel." IOW, Judaism is not forgiven and restored as the "true Israel" -- either now or in the future. It's not a personal statement, it's a national, or ethnic, statement.

 

[sojourner]

If everyone becomes reconciled there is no better or worse. But then why does scripture talk about being better? Why does it say take the least spot reserved for worthy ones? It seems to me there are no worthy ones if you are to be believed.

It depends on what text you're talking about; each text says and means something different. Are we still talking Matthew? Or some other gospel? It'd be real helpful to me if you'd cite specific texts and try to stay in the framework of a single text, instead of bouncing around between texts.

In general, I'd wager that when Jesus talks about best/least, he's talking against the entitlement that comes when one is trying to measure righteousness. Throughout the bible, we see that God favors the lowly, the downtrodden, the outcast, the disenfranchised, not the clean, pure, acceptable, and positioned.

Remember the song of Mary? God has raised up the lowly and cast down the proud in their conceit? Grace, as brought through Jesus, is the Great Equalizer, so, in that sense, you're correct, when the world is reconciled there is no longer greater/least. There is equality. Sort of like what Paul was saying: there is no more Greek or Jew, woman or man; all are one in Christ Jesus.

 

[savagewind]

It depends on what text you're talking about; each text says and means something different. Are we still talking Matthew? Or some other gospel? It'd be real helpful to me if you'd cite specific texts and try to stay in the framework of a single text, instead of bouncing around between texts.

In general, I'd wager that when Jesus talks about best/least, he's talking against the entitlement that comes when one is trying to measure righteousness. Throughout the bible, we see that God favors the lowly, the downtrodden, the outcast, the disenfranchised, not the clean, pure, acceptable, and positioned.

Remember the song of Mary? God has raised up the lowly and cast down the proud in their conceit? Grace, as brought through Jesus, is the Great Equalizer, so, in that sense, you're correct, when the world is reconciled there is no longer greater/least. There is equality. Sort of like what Paul was saying: there is no more Greek or Jew, woman or man; all are one in Christ Jesus.

God does not favor the clean, pure, acceptable, and positioned. Scripture? It is the DUMBEST thing I ever heard.

He doesn't favore the powerful, intelligent, worthy.....

At first I thought "what about Jesus?" (who is clean, pure, acceptable, and positioned.) Then of course my little voice says "they think he's God".

 

[savagewind]

I can't talk about text. I am sad. I can't access the perfect website presently. I think i want to send them money.

 

[sojourner]

God does not favor the clean, pure, acceptable, and positioned. Scripture? It is the DUMBEST thing I ever heard.

He doesn't favore the powerful, intelligent, worthy.....

At first I thought "what about Jesus?" (who is clean, pure, acceptable, and positioned.) Then of course my little voice says "they think he's God".

Think about it: Jesus obviously wasn't positioned. First of all, he was a peasant. Second, he was a *******. Third, he was a Galilean. And he wasn't "acceptable" to the religious authorities.

Think about Moses, David, Jacob. Moses was a slave/murderer with a speech impediment. David was an unscrupulous murderer/adulterer. Jacob was a thief. In Matthew's genealogy of Jesus, it mentions three foreign women in the lineage. In the stories of the patriarchs, it's always the younger son (in that culture, the disenfranchised, or less-positioned) who succeeds and inherits. Luke 1:46-55, read the song of Mary (in part):
My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord,
my spirit rejoices in God my Savior
for he has looked with favor on his lowly servant.
From this day all generations will call me blessed:
the Almighty has done great things for me,
and holy is his Name.
He has mercy on those who fear him
in every generation.
He has shown the strength of his arm,
he has scattered the proud in their conceit.
He has cast down the mighty from their thrones,
and has lifted up the lowly.
He has filled the hungry with good things,
and the rich he has sent away empty.

 

[sojourner]

I can't talk about text. I am sad. I can't access the perfect website presently. I think i want to send them money.

Try biblegateway.com

 

[savagewind]

Try biblegateway.com

Thank you. Bible Hub has a parallels page. It shows scriptures which are related to the one in question. It has Hebrew and Greek cross reference. It has Strong's concordance.