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Featured Jesus as Christ

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Sep 11, 2021.

  1. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    So what exactly is option 4? Was Jesus a man with the spirit of an angel, a created spiritual being? If so, he was a man and not God.

    If Jesus Christ was not (both man and) God, then God is not the Redeemer and Saviour of the world [lsaiah 45:21].
     
    #501 Redemptionsong, Sep 26, 2021
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  2. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    There is a story of the vineyard that also shows us God gives the Vineyard to others.

    In Matthew 21;

    "Hear another parable: 33There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
    34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
    35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
    36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
    37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
    38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
    39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
    40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
    41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
    42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

    Now consider, there has been a Nation since Jesus and Islam had the Vineyard and now the Baha'i also tender that vineyard.

    Regards Tony
     
  3. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    State telling a human truth.

    Humans.

    Did humans and do humans still experience supernatural events?

    Yes.

    Baha'i preach the circumstance. Life sacrificed receiving messages did not just belong to one man. Baha'i proved it occurred again as no control owned the caused life sacrificed. Of men as and by a human choice science.

    Previous life Old testament lesson warnings given to numerous men.

    Man's sin.

    Men only control machines.

    Lesson egotists are liars

    So we ask the science human theist do you tell any truth.

    Answer no.

    Reason they could not have harmed us if they never owned or used machines.

    By humans thinking every single want.

    So today we review anti meaning.

    Humans theoried our non existence.

    Humans today claim black energy. They burn gods mass yet have to apply cooling. As the laws. Cosmic. They do preach cosmic.

    The law cooling applied recurring cooling space opening as mass consumed. Owns and states cooling forces causes residue to exist whilst you apply converting.

    Residue left over.

    Otherwise the first consuming law would not have allowed any form to still exist.

    A basic human father to mans answer.

    Men in science thesis NOT consciousness don't listen.

    Pretty basic simply human truth.

    Liars. Design invention men human controlling machine claiming their consciousness human to think control is a God.

    Father said Phi burnt melted stones mass.

    History says evolution by thesis equals from melted God mass cooled is an idol only the machine. It does not in any thesis claim a reaction as an equals historic God to machine answer

    That human teaching jesus was already known and taught.

    Rome was told and knew it lied as it never believed in Jesus. Their lesson came when Rome burnt.

    Hence human consciousness aware knew and had in fact been angry at Rome taking action in the too late scenario for humanity.

    The actual life's lessons today.
     
  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Jesus told this parable to a Jewish audience. The Jews are to be understood as the original husbandmen. Those to whom the vineyard is 'let out' are other husbandmen, or Gentile believers. Christ remains the cornerstone. IMO.
     
    #504 Redemptionsong, Sep 26, 2021
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  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    What is death?
    [IMO.]
    If the Spirit of God is life, then the absence of God's Spirit is death.

    The absence of life in the physical body results in decay.

    The soul of man is a distinct entity from the body but is still dependent on the Spirit for life [Genesis 2:7]. The soul will, ultimately, descend into the grave, and remain separated from the life of God in Christ, unless redeemed.

    Psalm 49:15. 'But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.'

    The soul is the identity of an individual, but not the appearance.

    What, then, happens when the soul is redeemed? Well, according to 1 Corinthians 15:44, there are two types of body, one 'natural' and the other 'spiritual'. The natural body, like Adam's body, is raised a spiritual body, as it says [1 Cor. 15:49], '
    And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly'.

    Based on the experience of Jesus, there is good reason to believe that the natural body of man is either 'reconstituted' spiritually or replaced with a spiritual model.

    1 Corinthians 15:42. 'So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:'

    What is sown in corruption? Definitely the body. So, it follows that it's the body (with a soul) that is raised in incorruption.

    If Jesus Christ was raised in a spiritual body, why should we not believe that he will return in a spiritual body?

    Jesus' references to 'another Comforter' are most definitely references to the Holy Spirit, a Spirit that comes to dwell within, not amongst, believers. So, the Comforter cannot be Baha'ullah, because Baha'ullah lived amongst men, not within them.

    The Comforter is also sent from the Father, through the Son (the one charged with baptising in the Holy Spirit).
     
    #505 Redemptionsong, Sep 26, 2021
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  6. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    Has God ever changed the way the Message has been delivered to mankind? There has always been a Declaration, a given Message, the rejection, then the result, has there not?

    I think the greatest challenge for people of all Faiths is to consider that they could over time have some wrong concepts develop, and that error of thought continues for generations, each generation holding to that past hope. Yet still other Faiths are born and show their capacity in the same God given love that makes great Nations and then they too, for the same reasons, fail to provide the power of guidance they once had. This is because man does add meaning to scripture that is reflecting the material world and not that of the Spirit that was Jesus the Christ.

    In saying that, I am not saying people are bad, as many do this in the strongest Love they see is possible. I am offing it is a misguided Love. We need to look for what was of Jesus Christ, and not is from what men think Jesus offered. IMHO

    So if we did get it wrong, who will. Sort that out, but another God given Messenger, and Jesus Christ said many would come and give a false message, but also told us how to judge True Prophets and to embrace them.

    Verses such as these.

    DEUTERONOMY 18:22 "when a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously; thou shalt not be afraid of him."

    So if one does speak and it does come to pass, then Logically we know it was spoken in Truth.

    As to how a true prophet knows who they are.

    Numbers 12:6 " And he said, “Hear my words: If there is a prophet among you, I the Lord make myself known to him in a vision; I speak with him in a dream."

    Of course many more passages about how determine true from false.

    I offer there has been 3 Messages since Jesus that are supported by Numbers 12:6nd all true Prophet passages.

    They are the Messages of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. All else would not be supported by Numbers 12:6 and all true prophet passages. IMHO

    Regards Tony
     
  7. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    If you are truly convinced that Muhammad was a prophet of God, you should try listening to the Youtube conversations 'Christian Prince' has with Muslims about the Qur'an and various Hadith. As an Arabic speaker CP has insights that are not available to many non-Arabic speakers.

    When we turn to the Bible, and the person of Jesus Christ, l believe there is great misunderstanding. The Law, the Prophets, and the Writings were, l believe, genuine prophecies from God to prepare a chosen people, and the world, for the coming of the Messiah, God's own Son.

    The need for Christ lies in human sin, and if one denies personal sinfulness there can be no hope of salvation, to my understanding. The process of redemption involves God reaching down from above, to live amongst men, and finally to live within the hearts of men. To achieve this there must be a just payment for the sin of Adam, and acceptance of Christ's unblemished sacrifice in his resurrection.

    Ultimately, man is not capable of saving himself by his own actions. This is the realisation of man under the law. The New Testament is clear in stating that the only truly righteous man was Jesus Christ. Unless we have his righteousness in our hearts we are lost, lMO.
     
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  8. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul One Planet One People Please
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    I see that is each of the Messengers, they are the 'Self of God'.

    In each age the Holy Spirit is given to God's Chosen Messneger, they are "Christ" (the Annointed). Same Spirit, so the flesh amounts to nothing, it is the Spirit that is light and life.

    All humans are born in the edge of darkness and the beginning of light, we all have the potential to embrace the light, or turn towards our animal nature, which is darkness or evil. We all share that capacity and our attachment to Christ, the Holy Spirit is our salvation. But it is not the attachment to the body of a Messenger where we will find this Spirit.

    There is much guidance for us now, it is always a good discussion that talks of our capacity.

    Regards Tony
     
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  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Again, I do not know what verses say that Jesus baptizes from heaven. Didn't Jesus baptize when He was on earth?

    I believe that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which emanates from God and that it was sent to Jesus who brought it to humanity on earth. When Jesus released the Holy Spirit into the world He shed the splendor of His glory on all created things. I believe that Baha'u'llah also brought and released the Holy Spirit in the same manner that Jesus did.

    Question.—What is the Holy Spirit?


    Answer.—The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God and the luminous rays which emanate from the Manifestations; for the focus of the rays of the Sun of Reality was Christ, and from this glorious focus, which is the Reality of Christ, the Bounty of God reflected upon the other mirrors which were the reality of the Apostles. The descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles signifies that the glorious divine bounties reflected and appeared in their reality. Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.
    Some Answered Questions, p. 108
     
    #509 Trailblazer, Sep 26, 2021
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  10. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I agree that the soul is the identity of an individual, not the outward appearance.

    What I believe will happen to the soul after the physical body dies is as follows.

    “And now concerning thy question regarding the soul of man and its survival after death. Know thou of a truth that the soul, after its separation from the body, will continue to progress until it attaineth the presence of God, in a state and condition which neither the revolution of ages and centuries, nor the changes and chances of this world, can alter. It will endure as long as the Kingdom of God, His sovereignty, His dominion and power will endure. It will manifest the signs of God and His attributes, and will reveal His loving kindness and bounty.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 155-156

    I believe that the soul that is not redeemed will be separated from God. Those souls who are separated from God do not have eternal life. Although all souls continue to exist in the spiritual world after their physical body dies they are “as dead” compared to those souls who are close to God.

    “In the same way, the souls who are veiled from God, although they exist in this world and in the world after death, are, in comparison with the holy existence of the children of the Kingdom of God, nonexisting and separated from God.”
    Some Answered Questions, p. 243


    Baha’u’llah gives an apt description of souls who are separated from God in the last sentence of this passage. I would consider this to be a description of hell.

    “Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, andwhose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159


    Regarding denying self Jesus said something very similar:

    Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

    If we live for self and the worldly things we gain the world but we lose our soul in the sense that we lose eternal life. Eternal life refers to a “quality” of life, nearness to God.
    That is what I believe will happen. An apt description of what happens when the physical body dies is in this passage. Please note that in the context of this passage the word spirit refers to the human soul. The soul is the human spirit.

    421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

    Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    The death of man is merely his soul passing from one world into another. When the soul passes from this world into the spiritual world it takes on a new form comprised of spiritual elements and the man continues to live forever.

    I believe that Jesus is alive in heaven in a spiritual body. Jesus is not alive in a physical body because physical bodies do not exist in the spiritual world (heaven).

    “The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 157

    “The answer to the third question is this, that in the other world the human reality doth not assume a physical form, rather doth it take on a heavenly form, made up of elements of that heavenly realm.” Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 194
    Why would we believe that Jesus is going to return to earth at all, given Jesus said He was not going to return? (John 14:19, John 17:11)

    Jesus’ kingdom is in heaven, not on earth. Why would Jesus come back to earth, given Jesus said that His work was finished here? ( John 17:4, John 19:30)
    As I just said in my previous post, Baha’is believe that the Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God that God sent to Jesus and Baha’u’llah and they in turn released it into the world. Jesus was a Comforter because He brought the Holy Spirit. Baha’u’llah was another Comforter and the Spirit of Truth because He was the return of the Holy Spirit.

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    Baha’is do not believe in the “indwelling” Holy Spirit, as we do not believe that the Holy Spirit lives inside of the human body but rather the Holy Spirit has a direct connection to the soul. Thus the Holy Spirit is connected to the body through the soul.

    “Moreover, entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits—that is to say, sensible realities enter and come forth, but intellectual subtleties and mental realities, such as intelligence, love, knowledge, imagination and thought, do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend, but rather they have direct connection.

    For example, knowledge, which is a state attained to by the intelligence, is an intellectual condition; and entering and coming out of the mind are imaginary conditions; but the mind is connected with the acquisition of knowledge, like images reflected in a mirror.

    Therefore, as it is evident and clear that the intellectual realities do not enter and descend, and it is absolutely impossible that the Holy Spirit should ascend and descend, enter, come out or penetrate, it can only be that the Holy Spirit appears in splendor, as the sun appears in the mirror. Some Answered Questions, p. 108
     
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  11. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    The idea that God took interest in humans living on a tiny planet amongst hundreds of billions of solar systems in a galaxy amongst hundreds of millions of others, and waited 13+ billion years for humans to come about is quite beyond logic.

    We would have to be megalomaniacs to believe such stuff.
     
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  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Throughout the Tanakh we are given the 'generations' of Adam [Genesis 5:1], plural; yet when it comes to Jesus Christ we have 'the generation' [Matthew 1:1], singular. This is because Christ is 'the seed' promised to Abraham. There is only one 'seed' because that seed is everlasting.

    Had God intended for there to be more than one Christ, or 'Messenger' as you like to call him, then the scriptures would not have identified Jesus Christ as the seed of Abraham. It is in his spiritual 'body' that believers find life.

    IMO.
     
    #512 Redemptionsong, Sep 27, 2021
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  13. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    Paul asked, 'Have ye received the Holy Ghost [Spirit] since ye believed?' [Acts 19:2].

    This is a valid and important question because all believers were expected to receive the Holy Spirit.

    We are told that it was at Pentecost [Acts 2] that the disciples first received the Holy Spirit. The description makes it clear that the outpouring came from heaven, as Jesus had promised.

    Did Jesus ever baptise anyone with the Holy Spirit whilst on earth? He certainly 'breathed on' his disciples to signify the baptism in the Holy Spirit, but the promise of 'another' Comforter occurred days after the ascension, as promised [Acts 1:5,8]. So, baptism in the Holy Spirit is always an outpouring from heaven.
     
    #513 Redemptionsong, Sep 27, 2021
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  14. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The problem with this kind of logic is that it takes no notice of God's grander schemes. What is time and space to God? What other forms of supernatural life exist beyond the natural?

    IMO, what is revealed to man through scripture is enough to provide eternal life. To me, it's foolishness to ignore God's revelation!
     
  15. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Yes, Jesus is the go between or Mediator as mentioned above.
    There is One God, the Father, and one 'only-begotten' heavenly Son aka Jesus Christ.
    That is the One that Jesus instructed to worship at John 4:23-24.
     
  16. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find at Psalms that to God a 'thousand years is as a day' so that is an indication about time in God's eyes.
    Angelic (invisible to us) creation exists beyond the natural/material realm of existence.
    After the 'sin issue' is settled here on Earth, then there will be intelligent life elsewhere in the natural/material realm.
     
  17. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I agree that God's spirit proceeds out from the Heavenly Father as found according to Psalms 104:30
     
  18. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find it is sinner Satan who is the Megalomaniac. Believing he could rule over all of mankind.
    Remember: in Scripture first God created in an unknown amount of time the invisible heavenly realm for angelic life.
    Then, God simply expanded creation to include a material/physical realm of existence.
    Even the 6-creative days were Not done with the snap of a finger.
    There is No way of knowing how long each creative day is or if they are of the same or differing lengths of time.
    ALL of the creative days are summed up by the single word ' day ' at Genesis 2:4.
    Once the 'sin issue ' is settled here on Earth, then we will know more of God's purpose in creation, stay tuned.
     
  19. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Where did you get that?
    Satan always obeyed God, carried out God's instructions.
    Read Job.

    And where did you get that detail from?
    Folks just dream stuff up.
    It's not in the bible.

    Exactly where does the bible explain this?
    Any Quotes?

    Oh dear.
    Sin just causes sickness, weakness and failure.
    Breaking any rules/laws caused weakness.

    There were no exceptions in the 613 laws of Moses.

    The idea that breaking rules and laws sends a person to eternal hellfire (whatever) is just primitive daftness. :)
     
  20. rational experiences

    rational experiences Well-Known Member

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    Scientists just men said CH gas that arose came out of gods stone body. Christ.

    Christ spirit gas hence belonged to stone so they said don't thesis about it.

    As human consciousness liars theoried by knowing heavens gases to convert earths stone gases.

    They were told God owned stones building like a God temple. Don't give God names or convert God by giving God names. O earth stone. The tomb of gods spirit body.

    Only Christ was an accepted spirit story. Holy Christ

    Sacrificed Christ reasoned why life had been sacrificed. A teaching only. Jesus.

    The reason it was taught scient ists old name guess what was Satan ist.

    Holiness in science was Satan terms. Never God terms which for some reason you overlook as the human teaching in O planet relativity.
     
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