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Featured Jesus as Christ

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Redemptionsong, Sep 11, 2021.

  1. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Yes, I believe that Baha'u'llah was the Lord of hosts because He came in the station of the Father.

    “The Word which the Son concealed is made manifest. It hath been sent down in the form of the human temple in this day. Blessed be the Lord Who is the Father! He, verily, is come unto the nations in His most great majesty. Turn your faces towards Him, O concourse of the righteous… This is the day whereon the Rock (Peter) crieth out and shouteth, and celebrateth the praise of its Lord, the All-Possessing, the Most High, saying: ‘Lo! The Father is come, and that which ye were promised in the Kingdom is fulfilled!…’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 84-85

    “O CONCOURSE of priests! Leave the bells, and come forth, then, from your churches. It behoveth you, in this day, to proclaim aloud the Most Great Name among the nations. Prefer ye to be silent, whilst every stone and every tree shouteth aloud: ‘The Lord is come in His great glory!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 94

    “Give ear unto that which the Dove of Eternity warbleth upon the twigs of the Divine Lote-Tree: O peoples of the earth! We sent forth him who was named John to baptize you with water, that your bodies might be cleansed for the appearance of the Messiah. He, in turn, purified you with the fire of love and the water of the spirit in anticipation of these Days whereon the All-Merciful hath purposed to cleanse you with the water of life at the hands of His loving providence. This is the Father foretold by Isaiah, and the Comforter concerning Whom the Spirit had covenanted with you. Open your eyes, O concourse of bishops, that ye may behold your Lord seated upon the Throne of might and glory.The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 63
     
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I don't know. It could be referring to Jesus or Baha'u'llah, depending upon the context.
     
  3. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The real question is, Was the Spirit of the Father (in fulness) resting upon Jesus and living amongst us?

    IMO, as a man, Jesus worshipped God [apparent in the synoptic Gospels], but as the Son of God [John's Gospel] he spoke with the authority of his Father. It all depends on whether one is viewing his life from the human (soul) perspective or through the Spirit.
     
  4. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    The use of 'shall' denotes the future tense, and means that the appearance is future to the writing of the epistle. If the reference is to Jesus Christ, as l believe, then he will appear again. And when he does, believers will receive 'a crown of glory'. If, on the other hand, it refers to Baha'ullah then one must ask whether these crowns have already been given. Have you not received yours?
     
  5. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    When Baha'ullah came 'in the station of the Father', was he born on earth as a man?
     
  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    How do you know that "ye" refers to believers.?
    What is a crown of glory?
    The meaning of the verses is anything but clear.

    Do you think you can use this verse to determine if Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ?
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    He was born on earth as a man but His soul came down from heaven and united with His body at the moment of conception.
     
  8. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    To determine meaning, it is necessary to look at all scripture relevant to that topic. Thankfully, words are used carefully and precisely in scripture.

    I think it can be shown, by a careful reading of scripture, that Baha'ullah cannot be the second coming of Christ.

    The 'crown of glory' is only obtained by those who run the race in faith and are known to Jesus Christ as members of his flock.


    The point about the second coming of Christ is that it doesn't involve another birth on earth. Why would Christ have to undergo a second incarnation when there is no need for a second sacrifice for sin?

    The first coming of Christ was to live the righteous life and offer the prisoners of sin a way of escape. The second coming, on the other hand, brings vengeance on the enemies of God, and judgment to earth. For the saints it means resurrection and eternal life.
     
    #568 Redemptionsong, Oct 3, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I think it can be shown, by a careful reading of scripture, that Baha'u'llah has to be the second coming of Christ, since He fulfilled all the prophecies for the return of Christ.
    Do you understand that this is just *your interpretation* of scripture? You believe you know what the verse means but different Christians assign different meanings to the verse, so why do you think that is the case?
    How do you know that?
    Baha'u'llah was not a second incarnation of Christ. There is no need for a second sacrifice for sin because Jesus already accomplished that. Baha'u'llah had a completely different mission. He came to usher in the messianic age and to reveal what will be necessary for humans to build the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven.
    Again that is only according to *your understanding* of scripture. There are many other understandings.

    I believe that the second coming is bringing judgment to earth, and it means resurrection and eternal life, but not in the same way you believe that.

    “An important part of the Báb’s teaching is His explanation of the terms Resurrection, Day of Judgment, Paradise and Hell. By the Resurrection is meant, He said, the appearance of a new Manifestation of the Sun of Truth. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The Day of Judgment is the Day of the new Manifestation, by acceptance or rejection of Whose Revelation the sheep are separated from the goats, for the sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and follow Him. Paradise is the joy of knowing and loving God, as revealed through His Manifestation, thereby attaining to the utmost perfection of which one is capable, and, after death, obtaining entrance to the Kingdom of God and the life everlasting. Hell is simply deprivation of that knowledge of God with consequent failure to attain divine perfection, and loss of the Eternal Favor. He definitely declared that these terms have no real meaning apart from this; and that the prevalent ideas regarding the resurrection of the material body, a material heaven and hell, and the like, are mere figments of the imagination. He taught that man has a life after death, and that in the afterlife progress towards perfection is limitless.”

    Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 20-21

    “Christ spoke much in parables about a great Day of Judgment when “the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father … and … shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. xvi, 27). He compares this Day to the time of harvest, when the tares are burned and the wheat gathered into barns:—

    … so shall it be in the end of this world [consummation of the age]. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.—Matt. xiii, 40–43.

    The phrase “end of the world” used in the Authorized Version of the Bible in this and similar passages has led many to suppose that when the Day of Judgment comes, the earth will suddenly be destroyed, but this is evidently a mistake. The 220 true translation of the phrase appears to be “the consummation or end of the age.” Christ teaches that the Kingdom of the Father is to be established on earth, as well as in heaven. He teaches us to pray: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” In the parable of the Vineyard, when the Father, the Lord of the Vineyard, comes to destroy the wicked husbandmen, He does not destroy the vineyard (the world) also, but lets it out to other husbandmen, who will render Him the fruits in their season. The earth is not to be destroyed, but to be renewed and regenerated. Christ speaks of that day on another occasion as “the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” St. Peter speaks of it as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” The Day of Judgment of which Christ speaks is evidently identical with the coming of the Lord of Hosts, the Father, which was prophesied by Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophets; a time of terrible punishment for the wicked, but a time in which justice shall be established and righteousness rule, on earth as in heaven.

    In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.”

    Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 220

    “The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead. St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians says:—

    Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.—I Cor. xv, 51–53.

    As to the meaning of these passages about the raising of the dead, Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Book of Íqán:—

    … By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …

    … Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …

    In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” … Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as it hath been said: “He who is a true believer liveth both in this world and in the world to come.” If by “life” be meant this earthly life, it is evident that death must needs overtake it.—Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 114, 118, 120–21.

    According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

    Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”

    Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 220-222
     
    #569 Trailblazer, Oct 3, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
  10. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    We agree that there are two comings of the Messiah, and that Jesus was the fulfilment of the first coming.

    Hebrews 9:28. 'So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation'.

    You believe that the second coming of Christ has also been fulfilled, but by Baha'ullah. This means that salvation is brought to completion by Baha'ullah.

    The problem with this reading of scripture is that it matches neither the Hebrew scriptures, nor the Greek New Testament.

    Let's take lsaiah's prophecies as a starting point. In lsaiah 11:1-2 we have the following prophecy,
    'And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
    And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;'

    To you and l this must be a prophecy referring to Jesus. Jesus was of the line of David, son of Jesse, and was born in the ancestral city of Bethlehem.

    When we turn to Isaiah 61:1-2, we read a Messianic fulfilment of Isaiah 11. In this passage, the person on whom the spirit of the LORD has come to rest is speaking publicly and prophetically.

    Isaiah 61:1-2.
    'The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
    To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all them that mourn;'

    When Jesus read this Messianic passage of scripture at Nazareth [Luke 4], he only read the first section. He did not read 'and the day of vengeance of our God'. And yet, 'the day of vengeance' applies as much to the individual as does the mercy shown to captives.

    So, why should we believe that a different individual will fulfil the second part of the prophecy? The whole passage is to be fulfilled by the same Messianic individual.
     
  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    @Redemptionsong

    Sorry I have not had time to get back and answer your last post. I needed some time think and give you an adequate reply. I started a new thread last Friday and ever since then I have been buried in posts. Now there are over 900 posts on that thread so I hope it starts to die down soon, God willing. :)
     
  12. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Well-Known Member

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    No problem. Sometimes it's helpful to take a break.
     
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  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    I only
    I only wish I had time to do that.
     
  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    You have to define what you mean by salvation, as it probably means something different to you than it means to me. I believe that Jesus saved individual souls by His teachings and cross sacrifice. Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah wrote:

    “Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things…..

    We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86


    Baha'u'llah had a different mission. He came to save all of humanity by regenerating the world and unifying its peoples.

    “Considering this most mighty enterprise, it beseemeth them that love Him to gird up the loins of their endeavor, and to fix their thoughts on whatever will ensure the victory of the cause of God, rather than commit vile and contemptible deeds. Wert thou to consider, for but a little while, the outward works and doings of Him Who is the Eternal Truth, thou wouldst fall down upon the ground, and exclaim: O Thou Who art the Lord of Lords! I testify that Thou art the Lord of all creation, and the Educator of all beings, visible and invisible. I bear witness that Thy power hath encompassed the entire universe, and that the hosts of the earth can never dismay Thee, nor can the dominion of all peoples and nations deter Thee from executing Thy purpose. I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 243

    Unifying the peoples of the world as in fulfillment of this verse:

    John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
    The following is what the Baha'i Writings say about the rod which will come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse.

    "This rod out of the stem of Jesse might be correctly applied to Christ, for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse, the father of David; but as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God. If He had not done so, this description would refer to Him. Besides this, the events which he indicated as coming to pass in the days of that rod, if interpreted symbolically, were in part fulfilled in the day of Christ, but not all; and if not interpreted, then decidedly none of these signs happened. For example, the leopard and the lamb, the lion and the calf, the child and the asp, are metaphors and symbols for various nations, peoples, antagonistic sects and hostile races, who are as opposite and inimical as the wolf and lamb. We say that by the breath of the spirit of Christ they found concord and harmony, they were vivified, and they associated together.

    But “they shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.” These conditions did not prevail in the time of the manifestation of Christ; for until today various and antagonistic nations exist in the world: very few acknowledge the God of Israel, and the greater number are without the knowledge of God. In the same way, universal peace did not come into existence in the time of Christ—that is to say, between the antagonistic and hostile nations there was neither peace nor concord, disputes and disagreements did not cease, and reconciliation and sincerity did not appear. So, even at this day, among the Christian sects and nations themselves, enmity, hatred and the most violent hostility are met with.

    But these verses apply word for word to Bahá’u’lláh. Likewise in this marvelous cycle the earth will be transformed, and the world of humanity arrayed in tranquillity and beauty. Disputes, quarrels and murders will be replaced by peace, truth and concord; among the nations, peoples, races and countries, love and amity will appear. Cooperation and union will be established, and finally war will be entirely suppressed. When the laws of the Most Holy Book are enforced, contentions and disputes will find a final sentence of absolute justice before a general tribunal of the nations and kingdoms, and the difficulties that appear will be solved. The five continents of the world will form but one, the numerous nations will become one, the surface of the earth will become one land, and mankind will be a single community. The relations between the countries—the mingling, union and friendship of the peoples and communities—will reach to such a degree that the human race will be like one family and kindred. The light of heavenly love will shine, and the darkness of enmity and hatred will be dispelled from the world. Universal peace will raise its tent in the center of the earth, and the blessed Tree of Life will grow and spread to such an extent that it will overshadow the East and the West. Strong and weak, rich and poor, antagonistic sects and hostile nations—which are like the wolf and the lamb, the leopard and kid, the lion and the calf—will act toward each other with the most complete love, friendship, justice and equity. The world will be filled with science, with the knowledge of the reality of the mysteries of beings, and with the knowledge of God....."
    Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 62-66
    One reason to believe it would be a different individual was explained in that long quote above. Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies, so that means they would have to be fulfilled by another individual. I believe that Baha'u'llah was that fulfillment and He was also the rod out of the stem of Jesse.

    1559. Bahá’u’lláh was a Descendent of Abraham Through Both Katurah and Sarah—Jesse, Son of Sarah, was the Father of David and Ancestor of Bahá’u’lláh

    "Regarding your question concerning the Jesse from whom Bahá’u’lláh is descended: The Master says in 'Some Answered Questions', referring to Isaiah, chapter 11, verses 1 to 10, that these verses apply 'Word for word to Bahá’u’lláh'. He then identifies this Jesse as the father of David in the following words: '…for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse the father of David…', thus identifying the Jesse of Isaiah, chapter 11, with being the father of David. Bahá’u’lláh is thus the descendant of Jesse, the father of David.

    "The Guardian hopes that this will clarify the matter for you. It is a tremendous and fascinating theme, Bahá’u’lláh's connection with the Faith of Judaism, and one which possesses great interest to Jew and Christian alike." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, July 11, 1942)

    12: COMMENTARY ON THE ELEVENTH CHAPTER OF ISAIAH

    Genealogy of Baha’u’llah is on this link: Genealogy of The Báb and Bahá'u'lláh
     
    #574 Trailblazer, Oct 21, 2021
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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